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01-15-2014, 08:44 PM | #221 | |
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01-15-2014, 08:51 PM | #222 | ||
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You said more than 10 seconds "means it will be at least 11 seconds faster". Just wanted to clear any confusion so that no one else says BMW said or meant 11 seconds. Now I'll lol |
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01-15-2014, 08:56 PM | #223 | |
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Fully agree..remember what the CSL and GTS did. SportAuto has GOT to do the head-to-head SuperTest you suggested.
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01-15-2014, 09:05 PM | #224 | |
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1. Steering effort and torque gradient (on-center and off-center) 2. Response linearity 3. Road input transmissibility 4. Steering wheel torque feedback at the limits of adhesion Part of the reason that EPS systems don't perform as well as Hydraulic systems is that the computer control gives the engineers LOTS of toys to play with. Features like understeer mitigation, lane-keeping, road crown and alignment compensation all basically make small changes to your steering command before it makes its way to the wheels. This results in an artificial disconnected feeling that so many cars are plagued with today. Further, the market demands a pretty high level of refinement these days, so the engineers will do whatever they can to filter out ANY vibration that may make its way to the steering wheel. This takes away quite a bit of road feel, but that's what the market requires these days. EPS typically has very good response characteristics. The problem is that tuning the steering torque gradient to match this response can be tricky, even more so when you also have to incorporate all the above "features" and meet low steering effort targets. BMW has stated that they aren't using any of these technologies in the new M3, and that alone should go a LONG way to improve steering feel over the F30. Finally, there's a learning curve. We're only human, and it takes time to figure out the best way to apply and tune all the technology that we've developed. I'm confident that we won't even be having this EPS discussion within a generation or two. I'm expecting that the F8x will be 90% there already. |
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01-15-2014, 09:09 PM | #225 |
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By the way, The Z28 is BARELY a street car. It's probably one of the most track-oriented cars on the market today, especially at that level. The tires alone are worth a couple seconds a lap on a NORMAL race track in the US, let alone the 'ring.
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01-15-2014, 09:12 PM | #226 | |
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It's a common misconception, in the SportAuto super test the F10 M5 did the N-ring in 8:05 (I read the article). I have yet to find the actual original documented source of 7:55.
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01-15-2014, 09:17 PM | #227 |
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01-15-2014, 09:23 PM | #228 | |
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-15-2014 at 09:32 PM.. |
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01-15-2014, 09:37 PM | #229 | ||
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01-15-2014, 09:37 PM | #230 |
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I predict a ring time of 7:43 sec.
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01-15-2014, 09:37 PM | #231 |
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Yes, true, though as someone stated earlier, the E92 tested didn't have updated software, latest tires, DCT, ZCP (latter stated by BMW engineers at the as 'measurably faster' vs the std car lol) so again performance of new platform seems to be more incremental vs what the straight line stats and tech advancements would suggest (I thought would be more equivalent of mid 7:40s and think that was one of Swamps simulations). Though maybe the engineers are using the 10+ sec benchmark vs the last best iteration of the E9x (zcp, dct, tires, software). We'll find out from SportAuto.
The Road and Track quote from that M engineer about new F8x being tricky on a track is a little troubling--surprised that he would even feel the need to make a statement like that at the car's debut. Makes you wonder what the actual M engineers really feel about the strategic direction of M. |
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01-15-2014, 09:56 PM | #232 | |
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01-15-2014, 09:57 PM | #233 | |
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Not necessarily a bad thing because the M driving school is a great experience and a good teaching tool. |
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01-15-2014, 10:04 PM | #234 | |
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BMW quoted 4.8s for the E46. Pulling old magazines from my bookshelf, the test numbers are in the 4.6-4.8 range. Slightly better, but still close to BMW numbers. BMW quoted 4.7s for a 6MT E92, a 0.1s improvement compared to the E46. Again, pulling old magazines from my bookshelf, the test numbers are in the 4.1-4.5 range for 6MT cars. Averaging to about a 0.5s improvement over the E46. BMW was clearly very conservative with the E92 numbers. Now BMW claim a 4.1s sprint to 60mph for a 6MT F82, that would be a 0.6 improvement over the E92. I seriously doubt we will see a 3.5s time for a 6MT F8X (DCT maybe, but not 6MT). It seems to me that BMW is not being as conservative with the F8X numbers as they were with the E92. To me, 0-60mph (or 0-100km/h) is not that important of a metric anyway. I am just under the impression that BMW is ///Marketing the F8X very hard. |
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01-15-2014, 10:12 PM | #235 | |
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I have talked to enough corporate folks at car shows that don't know squat about the cars on display and just say anything to look smart. |
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01-15-2014, 10:15 PM | #236 |
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So what was the story behind Gerhard Richter's departure?
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01-15-2014, 10:18 PM | #237 |
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Maybe.... or maybe not, weird thing for any corporate folks to say in any industry.
At any rate can't wait for the inevitable comparison tests of old vs. new! |
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01-15-2014, 10:29 PM | #238 |
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Not a bad time, especially considering the car is more efficient now.
But I can't buy one of these in good conscience because Mercedes and Cadillac are changing the game with cars that have shed even more weight than the M3 and are coming with monster motors that will really open eyes. (turbo v8!). Buying a M3 now is welcoming buyer's remorse...need to evaluate these 3 cars equally first. |
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01-15-2014, 10:32 PM | #239 |
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Maybe they have shed more weight but the still weigh more, maybe a lot more.
Also, typically the m3 has more extensive chassis changes and tends to handle better. We will see. Great time to be a car guy for sure |
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01-15-2014, 10:38 PM | #240 | |
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Otherwise, if you want a BMW there won't be any buyer's remorse going on. |
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01-15-2014, 10:49 PM | #241 | |
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And he didn't say "tricky on track," he said "doesn't tolerate sloppy throttle inputs." Big difference. Responsive engines take precise inputs to drive smoothly. The E46 and E92 6MT can both be pretty jerky if not driven with at least SOME finesse. Now give that super responsive engine a ton of low end torque and it's going to be even more demanding to drive smoothly. This should be obvious, and if anything, speaks to the response and power of the engine, unrelated to it's limit behavior on a race track. If you're driving a brand new M3 on the track, you should, at the very least, have some concept of basic throttle modulation. If not, you're probably one of those guys who wraps his new Lambo around the first telephone pole out of the dealers lot. |
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01-15-2014, 11:14 PM | #242 | ||
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The comments from M saying they didn't program the EPS system to compensate for understeer or to help keep you in your lane or anything else have me very interested. One more thing, I agree with what NeverConvicted said about the steering in the E92 M3. I believe that Servotronic is at least partly to blame for the good-not-great steering in this car. Before I got my M3, I had a 135i with M3 suspension and bushings but the standard hydraulic power steering system and the steering was so much nicer. I must have let at least a dozen M3 owners I know drive that 135i and we all agree that it felt more natural and direct. The E46 M3's steering felt nicer to me than my current E92 M3 |
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