Solving the track tire wear problem?

[stonecliff]

Like a number of others on this forum, I would like the simplest way to make my F82 track-ready without changing the underlying character of the car. In my case, that means no suspension mods that would change its use as a daily driver. Even though I'm a frequent flyer at the track, I've found I enjoy it much more if I can set my car up at home, drive to/from the track, and turn it back to my daily driver afterward.

Brakes are easy: RS29 FTW. Great track pad, 45 minutes to change all four corners. Will consider PFC if it ever comes out, but I'm not sure I see the reason any more.

Front Camber: like others have noted, the stock PSS didn't hold up. I corded my fronts after ~6 track days and ~10000 road miles. I don't mind wearing them out, but breaking through the shoulder with good tread on the rest of the tire is unsafe and not acceptable. Stock camber appears to be about 1.5 degrees, but is totally non-adjustable. Anyone figure out how to get more camber without going to an adjustable plate?

Tires: the stock PSS are a remarkably good tire, but for the wear problem noted above. Certainly acceptable for getting 95%+ out of the car, and wonderfully versatile. Question: anyone run R-compounds on stock wheels and find the shoulder wear problem gone because of the stiffer sidewall? That could be one solution to the camber problem.

Square setup: Ultimately, a square setup (preferably without spacers) would be the way to go. 275 width all around seems ideal, with DOT-approved tires to drive to/from the track. While expensive, the PSC2 seems in 275/35/19 fitment seems like one good option (I'm not convinced I would be satisfied with 275/35/18 R888 based on past experience). Anyone running 19x10 ET40 on all four corners?

Basically, there seems to be three potential solutions to my front wear complaint: (1) increase front camber without going to an adjustable plate, (2) get a set of staggered R-compounds that don't wear on the shoulders, or (3) get a set of square R-compounds and rotate them until the shoulders are shot on all four tires.

Thoughts?

[Gearhead999s]

I am running a staggered setup on my M4 with Yokohama AD08R's in 275/30 295/30 19's on 10 & 11" rims with great results and no wear issues.Here is a picture of my left front that has about 5/32's left after competing in the Ontario 1500 a couple of weeks back.With 2 drivers we did 9 Time attack events & 6 Slaloms over a 1 week period with about 10000 kms of street driving beforehand.The tires appear to be starting to Heat cycle out but were more than competitive during the event with us winning our class.I also ran stock alignment settings.

[heckyeahbro69]

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=31_1121

It's only half a degree but it's something.

[stonecliff]

Originally Posted by heckyeahbro69

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=31_1121

It's only half a degree but it's something.

That's a really interesting idea. Thanks. Anyone try it?

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by stonecliff

[...]Front Camber: like others have noted, the stock PSS didn't hold up. I corded my fronts after ~6 track days and ~10000 road miles. I don't mind wearing them out, but breaking through the shoulder with good tread on the rest of the tire is unsafe and not acceptable. Stock camber appears to be about 1.5 degrees, but is totally non-adjustable. Anyone figure out how to get more camber without going to an adjustable plate?

Why not adjustable camber plates?
GC now has a set: http://www.ground-control-store.com/.../II=979/CA=182
So does TCKline: http://www.tcklineracing.com/webdocs...etails1165.cfm

Originally Posted by stonecliff

Tires: the stock PSS are a remarkably good tire, but for the wear problem noted above. Certainly acceptable for getting 95%+ out of the car, and wonderfully versatile. Question: anyone run R-compounds on stock wheels and find the shoulder wear problem gone because of the stiffer sidewall? That could be one solution to the camber problem.

R-comps are even more susceptible to shoulder wear with an inadequate front negative camber, than street tires.
Stiffer tire-walls do nothing to alleviate inadequate camber.

Originally Posted by stonecliff

Square setup: Ultimately, a square setup (preferably without spacers) would be the way to go. 275 width all around seems ideal, with DOT-approved tires to drive to/from the track. While expensive, the PSC2 seems in 275/35/19 fitment seems like one good option (I'm not convinced I would be satisfied with 275/35/18 R888 based on past experience). Anyone running 19x10 ET40 on all four corners?

I went with square 275/35-19 RE71R's last weekend after finishing my PSS's on track (outside front shoulders gone, rest of tread at wear bars all around).

Definitely grippier than PSS's, so far a bit noisier.

I'm buying and installing adjustable camber plates over the winter + rotating square tire/wheel setup next year to prolong tire lifespan.

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[MaynardZed]

I used R888 on stock rims and they did great. Not sure on the r comp vs street tire argument but apparently Michelins suck on the track.

I felt real bad for an F80 intermediate driver that spent like $2k to "upgrade" his tires to PS2 and then had to go home early Saturday morning after they had chunked after just 6 sessions. Friday practice was half wet too. He was pissed.

[Eddy@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by stonecliff

Basically, there seems to be three potential solutions to my front wear complaint: (1) increase front camber without going to an adjustable plate, (2) get a set of staggered R-compounds that don't wear on the shoulders, or (3) get a set of square R-compounds and rotate them until the shoulders are shot on all four tires.

1. adding negative camber in a non-adjustable way will compromise your street wear. Since you're using the car in two places, you'll always experience a downside with this type of setup.

2. This option doesn't exist. All tires will wear on the shoulders. Even if a tire is stiffer, you'll still be wearing out the edge. Softer extreme summer tires and r-compounds will wear out even faster on the edge.

3. rotating them will still result in premature death of the tires. You'd have to flip them on the rim at some point to extend their life. This costs money/time.

I recommend you get adjustable camber plates. You yourself stated that you "enjoy it much more if I can set my car up at home, drive to/from the track, and turn it back to my daily driver afterward." That is what adjustable plates allow. spend the 10 minutes at home before and after the track to make the adjustment while you're doing your wheel/tire change.

After the plates are installed for the first time, have it aligned with two settings. Mark the plates with a Sharpie pen for your street alignment and again for the track. You can adjust plates to go in or out with nothing more than a floor jack and wrench.

The cost of camber plates is paid for in tire life savings after about 2-3 sets, and the adjustment is easy.

Or install the plates at an aggressive setting like -3 or -3.5 degrees and leave it there all the time, but set your toe to 0. On the street that will have very minimal wear, but you'll still save a lot of tire at the track.

[CanAutM3]

We are in very similar situations. I also want to keep my car as stock as possible as my M4 is also my 4-season daily driver.

The PSS are more prone to outer shoulder wear compared to other tires because they have a softer compound on the outer thread blocks. I corded mine on the outer sholders after only 3 track days with plenty of meat left on the rest of the tire.

That being said, I also have this problem with my NT01s. I corded the shoulders of one pair of tires with them about half worn (I went through 2½ sets this season), quite frustrating . While it is not as bad as my previous E46 and E92 M3s, the F8X still needs more camber up front. Camber plates is the way to go. I will be installing GC plates next spring. I find camber plates are a reasonable compromise, you don't sacrifice much (a little more NVH) on the DD for much improved tire wear at the track.

Based on my experience, I found that R-compond tire usually require more camber than street tires. Since they offer more grip, they are more prone to tire roll over and induce more suspension bushing deflection.

I completed this season with a square tire setup (Apex EC-7 18x10ET25 shod with 275/35R18 NT01). A square setup is great to balance tire wear by giving the ability to rotate the tires to any corner on the fly at the track.

However, I was not able to fully leverage the explosive power of the S55 coming out of corners due to insufficient traction. So I will be switching to a stsggered setup next year with the soon to be released 18x11 EC-7. I am eager to find out how I will manage tire wear.

Mind you, the square setup performs well enough, you just have to be more patient with the throttle.

[stonecliff]

Good suggestions, everyone. Thanks. That's why we're all here.

Sounds like some consensus around the camber plates, but I remain concerned about the negative feedback on both the GC and TCK F80 plates on this forum (I had TCK plates on my E46, but the increased NVH is something I'm trying to avoid this time around).

Not sure I agree that the adjustability matters so much. On the E46, I was able to set it and leave it for both track and street (I think around -2.5), with no noticeable adverse wear on the street tires. For me, a non-adjustable change that didn't increase NVH could be the trick. But it doesn't exist yet, other than by replacing the pivot/swivel bearings (expensive, only 0.5 degree).

CanAutM3 - Did you have any rubbing issues with the ET25 in the rear? That's fully 15mm further out than stock. If not, that means we have some decent flexibility for offsets without spacers.

[SYT_Shadow]

OP, I run GC street plates on the E92M and the E46M and although I'm very sensitive to NHV, the increase is truly minimal

Besides, you can get the car aligned with -1.5 camber (setting on the GC plate, in reality more like 2-2.5) at 0 toe and when you max the camber out to around 3, the toe change is positive for track use
I used to run one setting for the street and track, but now I change it every time. It literally takes 15 min and that way I don't have to live with the annoying track manners of a -3 camber car

[MaynardZed]

OP, Dinan is going to be releasing a camber plate soon for the M3/4. If history repeats, they usually make a set it and forget plate with limited adjustability. Might be another option to look at. Probably will be double the price it should be, though. LOL!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by stonecliff

Good suggestions, everyone. Thanks. That's why we're all here.

Sounds like some consensus around the camber plates, but I remain concerned about the negative feedback on both the GC and TCK F80 plates on this forum (I had TCK plates on my E46, but the increased NVH is something I'm trying to avoid this time around).

Not sure I agree that the adjustability matters so much. On the E46, I was able to set it and leave it for both track and street (I think around -2.5), with no noticeable adverse wear on the street tires. For me, a non-adjustable change that didn't increase NVH could be the trick. But it doesn't exist yet, other than by replacing the pivot/swivel bearings (expensive, only 0.5 degree).

I am curious where you read negative feedback about the GC plate .

I had them on both my E46 and E92 and was very happy with them.

I decided to pass on the TCK for my M4 even if they were available early because I did not like the fact that they are only adjustable by set step increments.

Originally Posted by stonecliff

CanAutM3 - Did you have any rubbing issues with the ET25 in the rear? That's fully 15mm further out than stock. If not, that means we have some decent flexibility for offsets without spacers.

No rubbing. Albeit I am running a rather smallish tire diameter with the 275/35R18.

I believe TrakBch has successfully run rather wide tires (305 IIRC) on 11x10ET25 EC-7 on his lowered F80.

EDIT: Found the thread

[stonecliff]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am curious where you read negative feedback about the GC plate .

Here's the thread regarding the GC plates.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Eddy@ApexRaceParts

Or install the plates at an aggressive setting like -3 or -3.5 degrees and leave it there all the time, but set your toe to 0. On the street that will have very minimal wear, but you'll still save a lot of tire at the track.

[jeffucd]

It's been a while since anyone has posted, but have the Continentals shown better wear on the track vs. the PSS? I had the previous gen Conti's on my E90 for nearly 2 years with a few autocrosses/ drifting events and track days before the inner part of the rears finally gave way.

I have the new Conit's on the F80 now, and will be tracking it this weekend. Interested to see how they will hold up.

[M3 Number 86]

get a symmetrical tire and rotate/flip rotate/flip as necessary.

just know that track and street wear on inside outside is different.

I would just get camber plates and do 2* - 2.5* which isn't too aggressive. Zero toe in the front.

[RussianPete]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I am running a staggered setup on my M4 with Yokohama AD08R's in 275/30 295/30 19's on 10 & 11" rims with great results and no wear issues.Here is a picture of my left front that has about 5/32's left after competing in the Ontario 1500 a couple of weeks back.With 2 drivers we did 9 Time attack events & 6 Slaloms over a 1 week period with about 10000 kms of street driving beforehand.The tires appear to be starting to Heat cycle out but were more than competitive during the event with us winning our class.I also ran stock alignment settings.

Do you recommend these tires over michelin pilot super sport for daily driving.

(i drive pretty crazy)

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Netfrate LLC

Do you recommend these tires over michelin pilot super sport for daily driving.

(i drive pretty crazy)

Not as a daily driver as they are noisy & harsh and are quite poor in the wet.My experiance with the normal production PSS's has been quite good as a street tire.

[RussianPete]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Not as a daily driver as they are noisy & harsh and are quite poor in the wet.My experiance with the normal production PSS's has been quite good as a street tire.

Thanks

[Strangec]

Any new info on this subject? Has anyone found tires that work better for track use with the stock M4 suspension and camber setup?

[adc]

Originally Posted by Strangec

Any new info on this subject? Has anyone found tires that work better for track use with the stock M4 suspension and camber setup?

Absolutely, I run 275/305 Nittos which wear much better than stock PSS. I would have finished the PSS in two events I'm sure, but the Nittos have 4 or 5 under them with still a few more to go.

Noisy bitches though, I would not use them on the street.