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      05-03-2013, 09:36 PM   #45
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      05-03-2013, 10:05 PM   #46
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most of it sounds good, but im a little err on the steering.
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      05-03-2013, 10:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eMvy

It's not that efficiency isn't a principal of ours, it's just not high on the list among M owners. I couldn't care less about efficiency if it sacrifices the experience.

My inefficient S65 puts a smile on my face and a feeling you can't quite describe outside of a few production engines in the world. Even starting it in the garage and listening the beautiful sounds before the EMS adjusted did it for me. My much more efficient N20, is an un-poetic, characterless, diesel sounding, vibrating little shit, and with all prior considered, still a powerful, responsive engine that even pushes a X3 along nicely along while getting 32-34 on a slow, low stop highway.

See the legitimate concern M folks have? The S54 to S65 was a much easier pill to swallow because the S65 retained familiar characteristics, high revving NA. No doubt it'll perform but you get to a point where fast is great but the experience and feeling behind the wheel is what matters.

Amazing how little faith people have in BMW on this forum. The company has built amazing 4 cylinder engines,6 cylinder engines ,8 cylinder engines, 10 cylinder engines ,and some decent 12 cylinder motors as well!

They announce a unique (in this case 3 cylinder 310 hp ) motor and rather than consider the amazing performance, the first thing you do is pronounce it a failure!

Your comparison of the s65 vs a base n20 is as ridiculous as comparing an s14 with a 1.6 liter diesel or an M20 eta motor. . You are comparing a thoroughbred and a workhorse. they aren't both going to run the same circuits.
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      05-03-2013, 10:11 PM   #48
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Wouldn't put too much thoughts into what these people says, market will determine what they will make in the future.

BMW at one time said they will never make a M SUV. Not to mention they are watering down the M brand with a series "M performance" models.

M is just not what it used to be.
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      05-03-2013, 10:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24
Do you know how the F10 steering compares to the F30? I had a loaner F30 the past couple of days and, compared to my E92, it felt horrible. I won't buy an M4 in a few years (like I plan to) if that's the case.


Why would you ever make a judgement about an M car solely based on your impression of a non M version?

N54 in 335 vs n54 T in the 1M for example. One application has had major issues with heat soak and limp mode and the other has not.


Has history not shown you enough times that an M is significantly more advanced/further engineered than a non M variant? In situations where the technology was not ready, the M division defers to the better performing item.
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      05-04-2013, 01:06 AM   #50
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Wait & see... Nobody has to buy a car he doesn't like after all.

I am sure that the M4 will be great. I test drove a M135i 8 speeds automatic (fully equiped with M Perf parts) last month and I found it very fun to drive. Sound was really nice inside the car and very few lag. For me the M135i misses a rear differential, hasn't powerful brakes and wasn't as precise and incisive than my M3 but this car isn't yet a true M car and I am sure than a M2 or the M4 will exceed our M3 on these 3 points. But sure the S65 adds a lot on the current M. This engine is unique... and makes a lot of the experience. Couldn't say the same thing regarding M135i even if the car is fast and the N55 sound is nice. If I focus my opinion regarding motors, after driving S54 and S65 very few put a smile on my face except italians motors...
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      05-04-2013, 01:24 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Wouldn't put too much thoughts into what these people says, market will determine what they will make in the future.

BMW at one time said they will never make a M SUV. Not to mention they are watering down the M brand with a series "M performance" models.

M is just not what it used to be.
This is the correct answer.

It was only a few years ago that a top BMW engineer, and I don't even think he was from the sports-oriented M division, was interviewed in a major auto mag and said something like 'BMW doesn't believe in forced induction engines. Turbocharging means more torque but not much more power. Power matters more than torque in spirited driving and more torque means more weight: the driveshaft, transmission, brakes and more all have to be built heavier. More weight compromises the driving dynamics, which is not what BMW is about.'

A few years later and you can't even buy a naturally aspirated BMW. Not even that I'm against turbocharging, I'm just stating that BMW PR is coldly calculated and these are not driving enthusiasts who are speaking for the brand, these are hacks communicating a strategized and focus tested sales message.

When BMW was all naturally aspirated as their competitors were starting to release forced induction cars, forced induction was unacceptable.

When their competitors released performance-branded SUVs, BMW said that such a crime was unthinkable for a true sporting brand.

When BMWs weighed less than the competition, weight was why they drove so much better.

Does anyone else remember back a year or two when BMW was seriously considering a 90* V6 for the F80 and went as far to begin justifying the possible choice in a few press interviews? This, after all those years of touting the advantages of the straight 6? And again, I believe in the mechanical advantages of the I6, I'm just pointing out that you have to read between the lines with these kinds of PR exercises.
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      05-04-2013, 06:33 AM   #52
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Car and Driver: The current M3 was fitted with a unique M engine. Will future vehicles be derived from existing BMW engines, or will you continue to afford yourself the luxury of bespoke M engines, like the naturally aspirated V-8 and V-10?

Friedrich Nitschke: At the core of their architecture, our engines will be closer to BMW AG engines. But they will be optimized for the specific needs of M customers, so we can still essentially speak of standalone engines.

So S-engine will be more closer than std. family wagon engine? In other words they will be only chipped and little tuned (bigger cooler and differend plastic cover, just marketing..) , so they cannot handle more than 7000rpm...over 8000rpm like S54 need strenghed parts in engine and more $$$ and less profit to Bmw. Saddly if things going this way , we will see it when F80 will launched.
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      05-04-2013, 07:39 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Why would you ever make a judgement about an M car solely based on your impression of a non M version?

N54 in 335 vs n54 T in the 1M for example. One application has had major issues with heat soak and limp mode and the other has not.


Has history not shown you enough times that an M is significantly more advanced/further engineered than a non M variant? In situations where the technology was not ready, the M division defers to the better performing item.
Do you see a judgement in my post? I specifically asked a question (that I'm still waiting for an answer on).
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      05-04-2013, 07:45 AM   #54
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It would be so simple just to have hydraulic steering on the option list, like they do with the proper suspension on the F30.

Then everyone would be happy surely
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      05-04-2013, 07:58 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I call big, huge BS on this one
show me one car that has electric power steering that is anything like hydraulic steering

the car companies love it because its more efficient
so it saves them 1-2 mpg or something
but to say it's "on par" is either a blatant lie, or you know nothing about cars
I'm with you... I just got the new 3 series as a loaner while getting the oil changed on my 2008 328xi - it's AWFUL. Doesn't matter which setting the car is in, it always feels disconnected. Plus, "start-stop" is annoying as hell and that 4-banger sounds like a hive of angry bees. "Ultimate Driving Machine?"...not so much anymore. At least give me the OPTION not to be forced into a Eurozone eco-mobile. I don't care what the numbers on paper are...the 3 is losing it's soul. What a shame...
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      05-04-2013, 10:08 AM   #56
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All good things to hear! On a side note, I'm glad he actually answered the answers straightforward. I'm tired of people in interviews dodging questions and giving vague answers.
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      05-04-2013, 10:14 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5 View Post
Not this car reviewer. I think the 991 steering is numb as hell. Not as numb as the F10, but numb compared to the pre-electric Porsches.
+1. I did not read a serious review saying that it is as good or better too, they say it is not "bad" essentially. 2 weeks ago a test drive (new Boxster S) confirmed me that the new steering set up is a scar on the face of otherwise perfect car. It is comfy, silent, makes the job and numb as a dead fish.
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      05-04-2013, 10:26 AM   #58
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I havn't heard any critiques on the EPS of JDM cars like the S2000, RX-8, GT86 or LFA, to name these few. And 911 GT3 neither.
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      05-04-2013, 12:21 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Porsche has done a pretty good job keeping the multitude of car reviewers from grumbling much about their move to electric steering. There's hope that BMW can do this with the M3/4.
Like the new 911 which ONLY comes with their lousy PDK?

No manual Tranny in those.

The hardcore driver's are not beeing satisfied much these days imo.
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      05-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron_jeremy View Post
Like the new 911 which ONLY comes with their lousy PDK?

No manual Tranny in those.

The hardcore driver's are not beeing satisfied much these days imo.
The 991 911 offers a seven speed manual transmission. The turbo variants and the GT3 will be PDK only.
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      05-04-2013, 03:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedoniste View Post
Sound was really nice inside the car and very few lag.
The sound inside was very nice due to it being computer generated and played through the speakers.
Amplify some frequencys and remove others and voila it sound likea real engine inside the car...
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      05-04-2013, 03:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
Car and Driver: The current M3 was fitted with a unique M engine. Will future vehicles be derived from existing BMW engines, or will you continue to afford yourself the luxury of bespoke M engines, like the naturally aspirated V-8 and V-10?

Friedrich Nitschke: At the core of their architecture, our engines will be closer to BMW AG engines. But they will be optimized for the specific needs of M customers, so we can still essentially speak of standalone engines.

So S-engine will be more closer than std. family wagon engine? In other words they will be only chipped and little tuned (bigger cooler and differend plastic cover, just marketing..) , so they cannot handle more than 7000rpm...over 8000rpm like S54 need strenghed parts in engine and more $$$ and less profit to Bmw. Saddly if things going this way , we will see it when F80 will launched.
Yep. For the F80, it is very interesting to me that reliable rumors put its power at only 415hp. Even for a moderately tuned 3.0L I6 that seems low. BMW is selling low end standard cars with a 180hp 1.5L I3 and getting 220hp out of the same engine in the i8. 415hp seems unambitious.
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      05-04-2013, 03:50 PM   #63
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its great!!keep stick to RWD!!
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      05-04-2013, 04:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna_hp View Post
Yep. For the F80, it is very interesting to me that reliable rumors put its power at only 415hp. Even for a moderately tuned 3.0L I6 that seems low. BMW is selling low end standard cars with a 180hp 1.5L I3 and getting 220hp out of the same engine in the i8. 415hp seems unambitious.
So far, M3 tradition puts the M4 power output slightly more than any 7-Series (except V12) of the time. For example,

E30 M3 at 192hp vs E32 735i at 185hp
E36 M3 at 240(US)/286/321(EU)hp vs E38 740i at 282hp
E46 M3 at 333(US)/343(EU)hp vs E65 745i at 325hp
E92 M3 at 414(US)/420(EU)hp vs F01 750i at 400hp
F80 M4 at least 450hp vs F01 LCi at 445hp

So we should be fine.
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      05-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #65
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Yes, Porsche has taken less flak then BMW. Porsche has done overall better job in designing their electric steering system. However, even they have taken criticism for diminishing feed back.

Porsche cars have a inherent advantage over BMW cars when it comes to the steering feel. The BMW front engine cars have all this weight hanging over the front wheels which diminishes the more accurate feel generated by mid engine or rear engine platforms to begin with. The less weight over front wheels make them more transparent and provide greater feedback and accuracy. This is one of the reasons why Porsche or Ferrari or Lotus are far superior to BMW's when it comes down to steering feel.

Now on top of this inherent flaw BMW is making huge boat like sporty cars that are heavier then some SUV's.

It is becoming a steady recipe for disaster with over weight huge cars, front engine mass, and electric steering crap in addition to rock hard run flats.

I have no problem with turbo cars in fact I love them. However, I hate heavy over weight cars whose steering feel and driving dynamics are crap. At one time BMW cars had great fun to drive ratio now they are just another poseur luxury boat with lots of power.

I hope BMW does not mess up the all new M3/M4. Otherwise, I will be looking else where for my next vehicle after more then decade of driving BMW's faithfully. I loved BMW's cause they had soul and they were not just another machine or soul less toaster (Lexus garbage). The way things are now BMW's are becoming as soul less as Toyota. At least Toyota has just introduced FR-S or GT86. I am still waiting for car that I would dream to own since the intro of last worth while BMW's called 135is, 335is, M3 and 1M. Some how they even managed to mess up the Z4 35is with the dead steering feel and lack of driving dynamics.

I think BMW needs to wake up and stop making utterly life less cars. Otherwise in their desire to gain new customers they will lose the core believe that made them so special to begin with.

Sorry for a huge rant....


Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Porsche has done a pretty good job keeping the multitude of car reviewers from grumbling much about their move to electric steering. There's hope that BMW can do this with the M3/4.
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Last edited by Kayani_1; 05-05-2013 at 02:40 AM..
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      05-04-2013, 04:57 PM   #66
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The weight is enemy of driving dynamics. That is what messed it up for M5 and M6 on top of tuning it to please folks that want luxury isolation. Now add to it the electric steering garbage and a disaster waiting to happen to M3/M4. I hope they keep the guys that worked with M5/M6 far away from M3/M4.

Those that say that ESP in some of the cars did not get as much complain that is because those cars are light weight (GT86) and others are not front engine like LFA in addition to being light weight.

Take for example the Porsche Cayman S vs Lotus Exige as a classic example. The Lotus Exige steering feel is far more accurate and transparent then Porsche Cayman S. All thanks to less weight and steering tuning that is not designed to provide isolation for luxury car spoiled buyers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
Actually the F10 M5 and F12/F13 M6 both have hydraulic steering versus the AG cars' EPS. Even so, people complain that it's not as good as the E60 in feel.

The F80/F82 M3/M4 will be M's first production car with EPS.
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