F80 M3 vs. E30 M3 DTM Around Hockenheim (Sport Auto Video)

[solstice]

Good reminder of what a "sharp" car look like. It's what some of us are looking for in an M3 slightly sanitized for the road. We've no doubt moved too far from that today and while the weight reduction in the M4 is welcome it's just not enough and than all other electronics etc filtering out way too much communication. The M4 act like a GT car here.

[Ringer]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

4 seconds is pretty impressive considering how old the E30 and how fast the F80 was in reviews!

Another reason why the E30 will remain my favourite BMW.

+1

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by solstice

Good reminder of what a "sharp" car look like. It's what some of us are looking for in an M3 slightly sanitized for the road. We've no doubt moved too far from that today and while the weight reduction in the M4 is welcome it's just not enough and than all other electronics etc filtering out way too much communication. The M4 act like a GT car here.

This isn't the E30 M3 road car versus the F80 M3, this is the E30 M3 DTM car. I guarantee you that if you saw a video of the E30 M3 (road version) go head to head with the DTM car, every one of your comments would apply.

[eMvy]

Comparison times:

BMW E46 M3 CSL —————————————— 1:13.5 min
BMW 1M —— ————————————– 1:14.1 min
BMW M3 V8 E92 ————————————– 1:14.3 min (R compound tires)
Audi TT-RS Coupe ————————————– 1:14.3 min
BMW M6 ————————————————– 1:14.4 min
BMW M3 V8 E90 ————————————– 1:14.6 min (R compound tires)
Alpina B6 S —————————————- 1:14.8 min
BMW M3 E46 ———————————————- 1:16.3 min
BMW M5 E60 ——————————————— 1:16.5 min
BMW Z4 M Roadster ———————————– 1:16.7 min
BMW sDrive 35i Roadster ———————————– 1:16.6 min
BMW 335i E90, facelift ————————————– 1:17.0 min
BMW Z4M Coupe ——————————————— 1:17.2 min
BMW 135i ————————————————— 1:17.4 min
BMW M5 E39 ———————————————— 1:17.6 min

Source: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/04/23...at-hockenheim/

[solstice]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

This isn't the E30 M3 road car versus the F80 M3, this is the E30 M3 DTM car. I guarantee you that if you saw a video of the E30 M3 (road version) go head to head with the DTM car, every one of your comments would apply.

I know what car it is. I also know the E30 very well, I owned two. It's almost 30 years ago the E30 M3 was conceived. That's an eternity in car evolution. Most car manufacturers sportiest offerings surpasses their race cars of that era in most aspects. Sharpness is not one of them when it comes to the E30 DTM vs. the M4 and it's a pity IMO. The difference is enormous as you can see in this video in favour of the old E30 DTM car. Bigger than it has to be IMO.

[jippii ensio]

For a race car E30 is bigger than it has to be. It makes it less sharp and slow compared to my favorite race car of the time, BMW F1.

[MDS]

Moral of the story ....

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You probably shouldn't have left out the part where he predicted people would be butt hurt

Yes, he's obviously biased. We all are. Bias is our predilection for the things we want. Problem is, everyone wants something different.

That's the thing... I'm not biased in the least, I mean that in all seriousness. Gentleman, I'm not here to piss on anyone's car purchase, I'm proud of the new M3/4 owners, seriously and I hope everyone enjoys their new car they busted their asses to own. I do think it is a beautiful car especially in YMB, and no doubt after driving one the acceleration and power is there in abundance. The point was, to an old school BMW enthusiast like me, it's a different evolution of the M brand versus what I had seen coming. The engine is powerful indeed and I'm impressed with the interior and all, I just don't feel the engagement like the E46 had. I owned a E92 M3 and the S65 is beyond amazing, but even then I told my buddies that it just isn't as sharp as the E46. I'm not biased as I currently own 2 beloved BMWs, my point was as beautiful as the new lineup is, I just didn't feel that special feeling of yesteryear lol. I'm not bashing anyone's car as I did grin ear to ear driving the F80, it just didn't have the gotta have it factor like, let's say.... The E39 M5.
That being said I would purchase the F80 because it truly is a DD that is a sledgehammer, it does it well. I liked the new rack and the steering was excellent, much better than the F06 or f30.
Truth be told the Jag isn't without flaws either, but it's a huge car with lots of room, a world class interior and everyone loves a whining positive displacement SC V8
I hope I cleared that up, I'm not a troll in the least, I actually had discussed with Karussell in trading my 1M in for a F80, but decided against it. I'm intrigued to see what the LCI and ZCP brings!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Good reminder of what a "sharp" car look like. It's what some of us are looking for in an M3 slightly sanitized for the road. We've no doubt moved too far from that today and while the weight reduction in the M4 is welcome it's just not enough and than all other electronics etc filtering out way too much communication. The M4 act like a GT car here.

You've ordered the stock passive suspension, right?

In the article about this test/comparison (in the latest edition of Sport Auto) they say the following about the tested cars std passive suspension (loosely translated):

We suggest that you save the 1900 Euros by not ticking the box for the active suspension and instead use the money on buying tourist rides on the Nurburgring. The std passive suspension was convincing with ample comfort on the road and enough stiffness on the track.

The article was written by Gebhardt. See previous posts on this thread on his driving experience

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gmcconn535

Just to be factual - they were NOT driven by the same driver.
"Behind the wheel of the E30 M3 DTM racing car was Johnny Cecotto while driving the F80 M3 was Sport Auto’s Christian Gebhardt."

Where did you find that info?

In the article in the magazine there is no mention of the E30 M3 DTM being driven by Cecotto (it was driven by him in 1992 though)...

In fact the article, written by Gebhardt, describes how the two cars are different from the drivers seat. How they feel and compare during the session. He also talks about being told not to exceed 8750rpm, but still goes past 9000rpm during the lap... (they revved over 10000rpm in race trim back in the days).

The car is owned by a former M engineer, working on the engine development of the S14 and on the DTM engines.

As far as I can tell, Gebhardt drove both cars.


EDIT:

Came home from work and looked up the article again. On the lap comparison chart they state that the driver was Christian Gebhardt. He definitely was the driver in both cars.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

For a race car E30 is bigger than it has to be. It makes it less sharp and slow compared to my favorite race car of the time, BMW F1.

BMW F1

Like a Formula 1 car? (either Williams BMW or Sauber BMW? Or are you referring to the old F1 cars from the '80ies that had the BMW turbo engine?)

Can't really compare a F1 car to a touring car...

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Can't really compare a F1 car to a touring car...

Obviously you haven't been paying attention

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by chiplee

Excellent. That makes so much more sense given the way the cars were driven.

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

Wow! Really?!?! That comes as a huge surprise to me as the F80 driving looked so poor.

I guess he could have used more seat-time in the new M3 to familiarize himself with the added weight and perfect the lines - you can tell he's had that DTM around the track more than a few times!

Originally Posted by chiplee

See post #64.

Both cars was driven by Christian Gebhardt (according to the article in the latest paper edition of Sport Auto).

Cecotto was the original driver of the E30 M3 DTM in 1992 but did NOT drive it on June 12th 2014 (the day they did the laps in the video). Not sure where the poster who claimed it was Cecotto driving had his info from.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Vlad-Miami

While it is not a fi eglass shell, there us still only a shell. All weight removed. F80 was a city version. Pointless comparison + the driver of F80 was very bad, i mean really bad. At some point he was going straight line on third gear from 2000rpm until 6000rpm. Seriously?

See posts above. It was the same driver in both the E30 and F80. He's a VERY experienced and quick driver. Not quite able to see the tachometer so I cannot comment on where he drove from 2-6k, but have you seen the torque curve of the S55?

They had been driving the cars in the morning (in traffic) and had the 1 hour lunch break to do these videos and set the times. This was definitely not his first lap in the F80. He is probably experienced enough, both on the track and with the car, to know which gear is best at which point on the track (he's done hundreds of lap on that track).

The F80 M3 time of 1:13.1 is only 0,3s slower than the M4 DCT time from the Supertest (the M3 time was set in 35 deg C temp and the M4 Supertest time was set in much cooler 19 deg C temp).

That he can set a time in a 6MT car that is only 0,3s slower than the M4 DCT time (and in hotter climate) proves that he can't be that bad of a driver...

The Supertest time was set by Horst von Saurma

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

That he can set a time in a 6MT car that is only 0,3s slower than the M4 DCT time (and in hotter climate) proves that he can't be that bad of a driver...

The Supertest time was set by Horst von Saurma

For anyone unfamiliar, Horst von Saurma is no slouch either. He's a ring legend as well, holding many production car lap records there.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

You've ordered the stock passive suspension, right?

In the article about this test/comparison (in the latest edition of Sport Auto) they say the following about the tested cars std passive suspension (loosely translated):



The article was written by Gebhardt. See previous posts on this thread on his driving experience

Yes, passive suspension for me. I never tried an active damper I like better than a good passive damper. I do like active roll bars (ARS) when coupled with passive sports dampers and springs though so it's not that I'm anti new technology in general . Thanks for the quote and translation, sounds promising. It's just a little over one week until I take delviery at the Welt. It's an even mix excitment and concern over how I will embrace this new beast.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Yes, passive suspension for me. I never tried an active damper I like better than a good passive damper. I do like active roll bars (ARS) when coupled with passive sports dampers and springs though so it's not that I'm anti new technology in general . Thanks for the quote and translation, sounds promising. It's just a little over one week until I take delviery at the Welt. It's an even mix excitment and concern over how I will embrace this new beast.

I look forward to hearing (reading) your experiences and impressions of the car. I know you have been critical to some aspects of the new gen. I sincerely hope that you will fall in love with the F8x as well (since you have shelved out for a new car, I hope you will not end up regretting the change from E9x to F8x). Your review of the F8x is actually one that I am looking forward to read (regardless if you are critical or praise it)

[Boss330]

Here are the article scans:

[chiplee]

I think he threw the race to himself then.

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by Boss330

BMW F1

Like a Formula 1 car? (either Williams BMW or Sauber BMW? Or are you referring to the old F1 cars from the '80ies that had the BMW turbo engine?)

Can't really compare a F1 car to a touring car...

I see your point. Similarly, can't really compare a race car to a street car the way people compare in this thread.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

I see your point. Similarly, can't really compare a race car to a street car the way people compare in this thread.

Agreed 100%

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by chiplee

I think he threw the race to himself then.

Well, Johnny Cecotto qualyfied in 7th place in the 1992 race with a 1:03,86 time. More than 5s quicker than what they managed in 2014...

(they did have a bit less HP and narrower Dunlop tires in 2014 compared to the Michelin tires from 1992)