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      01-22-2016, 04:36 PM   #1
aboulfad
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Dead Battery?

Got in my car this morning, and I had an eery feeling as if something was different, no lights, window didnt slide down 1", no radio, no start-up. I thought no, so i checked the voltage at the jump-starting posts under the hood, Nada Volts...

I called BMW Road side assistance, except this time it was Home side assistance as i was parked inside my heated garage. The guy came within 30mn, plugged his battery pack and the car started right away. No accessories plugged in, no aftermarket modifs whatsoever, no coding, ... no lights in the dash, no warning, just like that. I drove it the last two days normal.

Its at the dealer now, they are charging it slowly and unfortunately has to sleep the weekend there (dealers close on weekends here). The tech confirmed that it was low capacity but they need to keep it under the charge for at least a day to do further tests. The trick of driving for 20-30mn HWY speeds does not fully charge those batteries, but unsure if I take his word for it.

A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?
UPDATE: No trouble found, Mysterious gremlins drained the battery.

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-25-2016 at 03:45 PM.
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      01-22-2016, 08:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
Got in my car this morning, and I had an eery feeling as if something was different, no lights, window didnt slide down 1", no radio, no start-up. I thought no, so i checked the voltage at the jump-starting posts under the hood, Nada Volts...

I called BMW Road side assistance, except this time it was Home side assistance as i was parked inside my heated garage. The guy came within 30mn, plugged his battery pack and the car started right away. No accessories plugged in, no aftermarket modifs whatsoever, no coding, ... no lights in the dash, no warning, just like that. I drove it the last two days normal.

Its at the dealer now, they are charging it slowly and unfortunately has to sleep the weekend there (dealers close on weekends here). The tech confirmed that it was low capacity but they need to keep it under the charge for at least a day to do further tests. The trick of driving for 20-30mn HWY speeds does not fully charge those batteries, but unsure if I take his word for it.

A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?
when was the last time you drove it prior? was the trunk closed completely?... i drained the batt once in my Rx-8 by having the trunk not shut completely and it sat over a weekend.
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      01-22-2016, 09:13 PM   #3
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I drove it the night before, doors/trunk closed overnight. Even if trunk/door isn't closed, most car electronics (radio, lights, ...) turn off after a pre-determined time (10-20mn). I'd also like to believe that shouldn't drain a new battery!

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-09-2017 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Removed false theory!
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      01-22-2016, 10:19 PM   #4
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i think our batteries are very expensive!!! Hope it is covered!!
Our trunk light turns off after it is open for a while, not sure how long but, it does turn off.
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      01-22-2016, 10:47 PM   #5
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I really hope so too, I could swear I read somewhere that batteries are covered under warranty if the battery fails to keep a charge above a certain capacity threshold, if operator error has been ruled out (unreasonable driving/usage profile)... Further readings shows that our batteries are equipped with a "disconnect switch" to protect the battery from certain conditions, at which voltage cannot be measured, which was the case. So maybe the battery disconnected itself to protect itself, one cause could be a undervoltage (total discharge), but caused by what ?

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-22-2016 at 10:55 PM.
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      01-22-2016, 11:03 PM   #6
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here are some interesting technical documents I found on lithium ion batteries for our car series, Advanced power management, Closed-circuit current monitoring and Energy Diagnosis Procedure!

OMG, the car logs everything, if i knew about this Energy Diagnosis Procedure I would have tried it... I knew that we can get a histogram of the battery capacity over the past week but all other aspects of energy usage are logged, so the dealer should know what caused it but somehow I doubt they know how to use thoroughly their diagnostic tools ...
Attached Images
File Type: pdf LithiumIonBattery.pdf (319.6 KB, 142 views)
File Type: pdf AdvancedPowerManagement.pdf (107.8 KB, 85 views)
File Type: pdf ClosedCircuitCurrentMonitoring.pdf (99.3 KB, 257 views)
File Type: pdf EnergyDiagnosisProcedure.pdf (79.7 KB, 221 views)

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-22-2016 at 11:57 PM.
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      01-23-2016, 07:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
Got in my car this morning, and I had an eery feeling as if something was different, no lights, window didnt slide down 1", no radio, no start-up. I thought no, so i checked the voltage at the jump-starting posts under the hood, Nada Volts...

I called BMW Road side assistance, except this time it was Home side assistance as i was parked inside my heated garage. The guy came within 30mn, plugged his battery pack and the car started right away. No accessories plugged in, no aftermarket modifs whatsoever, no coding, ... no lights in the dash, no warning, just like that. I drove it the last two days normal.

Its at the dealer now, they are charging it slowly and unfortunately has to sleep the weekend there (dealers close on weekends here). The tech confirmed that it was low capacity but they need to keep it under the charge for at least a day to do further tests. The trick of driving for 20-30mn HWY speeds does not fully charge those batteries, but unsure if I take his word for it.

A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?

My experience is if its a mixture of things. 20-30mns may or may not, keep in mind batteries loose some juice when its cold out and below zero will kill a battery. However, if your doing 30mins a day HWY miles it should keep it charged.

Its most likely a bad battery or a drain of some sort.

In the winter I will put it on a charger at night, because my drives are short and it gets cold, just a cheap insurance policy.

Let us know what the problem is.
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      01-23-2016, 09:20 AM   #8
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I agree that cold is not friends to batteries and especially lithium batteries. Tesla cars are equipped with a heater that warms the cells in sub-zero temps as charging Lithium batteries sub 0C is not possible. I'd assume our LiFePO4 (4 for 4 cells) are also equipped with something similar in order to regulate temperature and make sure the battery is nice and cozy warm but I couldn't find any technical material. Also worth noting, Tesla lithium batteries are liquid cooled by AC coolant lines in high operating temps!

If you check the attached pdf above "LithiumIonInfo", it displays the operating temps, and our batteries shouldn't have trouble down to -25C.

Being curious, I checked some information after I was boosted and drove the car for 45mn at HWY speeds: (but not the closed circuit current monitoring didn't know about it):
Last state of charge findings:
Last: 96%
1 day ago: 90%
2 days ago: 88%
3 days ago: no definitive view possible: No value present, or rest phase too short
4 days ago: 92%
5 days ago: 86%
So based on the above, it seems that everything was fine leading up to that overnight. Maybe the gremlins did something

Charging status histogram: (period w state of charge)
0-40%: 0h
40-55%: 50h
55-70%: 400h
70-85%: 2170h
85-100%: 2700h

However, all this said, I agree with you, better have peace of mind and I will be finally buying the CTEK lithium charger and also the Noco GB-70 portable booster pack. Better be safe and ready than sorry. My brother said just keep calling your free road-side assistance

My prediction: dealer will say we didn't find anything and battery is ok! But I will ask what procedures they did to eliminate alternator fault or at-rest parasitic drain or battery fault..

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-25-2016 at 03:22 PM.
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      01-25-2016, 03:36 PM   #9
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UPDATE:
Good news, nothing is wrong with the car, battery is OK. The only thing they found (and i take it back, they know about the "Energy Diagnosis" procedure):
PHP Code:
FaultTerminal 15 on too long with engine turned off
Frequency:0
Switched-on period (resolution of 5mn): 45
Key or ID transmitter was in vehicle interior
state of battery charge reached the startability limit 
And that put the battery in a total discharge mode and then it disconnected itself for safety (undervoltage).

Not so good news: They wanted to charge me which I refused, and they washed my car against my wish, sigh ...
Now the mystery still remains, what "accessory" kept that terminal 15 ON for 45mn ??? I dont have anything connected physically to the car, no modifications, no mp3 usb, light switch is position OFF, nor was my key in the car, nor was I... And really, 45mns of whatever accessory (be it radio, lights, ...) can totally discharge the battery ?

I could say a comedy almost broke out with all the reasons they were giving trying to place fault with the operator (owner). The guy said maybe someone was triggering the car alarm in my closed garage constantly while I didn't hear it in my house ... seriously ???

Last edited by aboulfad; 01-25-2016 at 03:44 PM.
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      11-04-2016, 09:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post

A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?
UPDATE: No trouble found, Mysterious gremlins drained the battery.
Just had the same issue occur... Drove the car the night before as normal and woke up to a completely dead M.

Left on my trickle charger for 24 hours and it did absolutely nothing as explained in the attached.

Did your gremlins ever come back? I ask because I would rather jump the car and have it for the weekend vs flat bedding to BMW for the unknown
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      11-04-2016, 11:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrvineTim View Post
i think our batteries are very expensive!!! Hope it is covered!!
Our trunk light turns off after it is open for a while, not sure how long but, it does turn off.
About 900-1000$
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      11-04-2016, 06:52 PM   #12
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[quote=4everkidd;20805597]
No never again... you need to jump start it or use the appropriate LifePO4 charger w low or zero voltage detect.
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      01-09-2017, 02:16 AM   #13
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Just had same issue today all worked perfect night before, start this morning all dead. I had heard from my tech buddy there are some issues with the FEM front electronics module. Will see after my jump start tomorrow and I'm doing it as apposed to flat bedding to dealer. I will follow up in a couple days.
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      01-09-2017, 08:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEMR
Just had same issue today all worked perfect night before, start this morning all dead. I had heard from my tech buddy there are some issues with the FEM front electronics module. Will see after my jump start tomorrow and I'm doing it as apposed to flat bedding to dealer. I will follow up in a couple days.
Follow up: Battery failure their replacing it, having to reflash all my coding :
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      01-09-2017, 08:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEMR View Post
Follow up: Battery failure their replacing it, having to reflash all my coding :
Did they say what failed with the battery? And why do you have to redo your coding, I guess they probably updated your I-step?
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      01-10-2017, 07:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
Did they say what failed with the battery? And why do you have to redo your coding, I guess they probably updated your I-step?
You know what's weird, I monitor my battery life % and after 2-3 weeks of not driving my battery still sits above 91%. However if I plug in the charger, it almost never gets to 100%.. I let it sit over night for 2 days and it got to 96% and maxed out. Not sure if its the lithium chargers way of topping the battery off to not ruin it or not, but I do know that these lithium batteries dont seem to drain much at all from sitting a few weeks.
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      01-10-2017, 10:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGames View Post
You know what's weird, I monitor my battery life % and after 2-3 weeks of not driving my battery still sits above 91%. However if I plug in the charger, it almost never gets to 100%.. I let it sit over night for 2 days and it got to 96% and maxed out. Not sure if its the lithium chargers way of topping the battery off to not ruin it or not, but I do know that these lithium batteries dont seem to drain much at all from sitting a few weeks.
How do you monitor the % (ISTA?) I agree they shouldn't drain much from sitting many weeks. The car in sleep mode still runs certain processes but they should have minimal drain on the battery. Also greatly depends on the ambient temperature and other factors...
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      01-10-2017, 11:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
How do you monitor the % (ISTA?) I agree they shouldn't drain much from sitting many weeks. The car in sleep mode still runs certain processes but they should have minimal drain on the battery. Also greatly depends on the ambient temperature and other factors...
My charger itself lists the %, it charges both lithium ion and lead batteries, I've noticed on lead it charges to 100% but on lithium it doesn't, but I know I do have to select which battery type I'm charging so maybe it has something to do with topping a lithium off. who knows.
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      01-15-2017, 12:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEMR View Post
Follow up: Battery failure their replacing it, having to reflash all my coding :
Did they say what failed with the battery? And why do you have to redo your coding, I guess they probably updated your I-step?
37000 miles battery gone, they didn't say why, wholesale cost of battery 1210.00 plus installation plus markup plus software reinstall. Could be around 1800.00 if out of warranty, crazy. My coding is gone, but did notice some visual enhancements to the software update, that's cool. My coder will do remote recode for no charge he said.
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      01-15-2017, 12:58 PM   #20
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      01-15-2017, 01:14 PM   #21
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This fickleness with the battery is somewhat worriesome - in the warm Houston climate the cold issue is not so much of a problem of course but I do have a BlackVue Dashcam permanently wired to the fuse box which uses the PowerMagic Pro module in line to ensure no unnecessary battery drain in park mode. That said do wonder over time if this will turn out to be an issue, should the park mode video capture be significant - prob not - and might reduce the sensitivity to ensure so. Certainly have not heard any issues to date with folk using this kit on the F8X platform. Still have me thinking now....!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
Got in my car this morning, and I had an eery feeling as if something was different, no lights, window didnt slide down 1", no radio, no start-up. I thought no, so i checked the voltage at the jump-starting posts under the hood, Nada Volts...
..........
A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?
UPDATE: No trouble found, Mysterious gremlins drained the battery.
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      01-15-2017, 03:10 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ciaranob
This fickleness with the battery is somewhat worriesome - in the warm Houston climate the cold issue is not so much of a problem of course but I do have a BlackVue Dashcam permanently wired to the fuse box which uses the PowerMagic Pro module in line to ensure no unnecessary battery drain in park mode. That said do wonder over time if this will turn out to be an issue, should the park mode video capture be significant - prob not - and might reduce the sensitivity to ensure so. Certainly have not heard any issues to date with folk using this kit on the F8X platform. Still have me thinking now....!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post
Got in my car this morning, and I had an eery feeling as if something was different, no lights, window didnt slide down 1", no radio, no start-up. I thought no, so i checked the voltage at the jump-starting posts under the hood, Nada Volts...
..........
A fluke of hazard, weak or dead battery ?
UPDATE: No trouble found, Mysterious gremlins drained the battery.
The problem is the battery SHOULD be able to cycle through being dead once in a while, I had no electrical issues never a dead battery, nothing, then it dies and unchargeable?

By the way 37g in miles on my f82 and very first problem whatsoever, that's amazing in itself.
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