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      01-17-2014, 12:11 AM   #1
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S55: back to tradition or even further from it?

Going back to an I6 config. But turbos obviously.

Back to tradition (as ive seen commented plenty of times) or even further from it?

In my opinion, even the v8 was very similar to previous gen m3 engines.

Are we entering f10 m5 beast mode style engines from here on out?

Lets hear it.
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      01-17-2014, 12:34 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079
Going back to an I6 config. But turbos obviously.

Back to tradition (as ive seen commented plenty of times) or even further from it?

In my opinion, even the v8 was very similar to previous gen m3 engines.

Are we entering f10 m5 beast mode style engines from here on out?

Lets hear it.
What is the 'tradition' that you speak of exactly? It surely isn't fully bespoke motors. It surely isn't motors that aren't derived from base car production counterparts (..the S65 is an anomaly; it was still derived from the S85 though). If anything, the S65 was more of a deviation from the 'tradition' that most people here cite than any other ///M motor.
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      01-17-2014, 12:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What is the 'tradition' that you speak of exactly? It surely isn't fully bespoke motors. It surely isn't motors that aren't derived from production counterparts (..the S65 is an anomaly). If anything, the S65 was more of a deviation from the 'tradition' that most people here cite than any other ///M motor.
i would agree in terms of how the engine was made or developed. BUT in terms of engine characteristics. the S65 did have a m feel to it.

going from a E46 M3 to a E92 M3. all that was different was it had 8 pistons. hell the V8 wasn't even that much of a bigger engine either.

where the F80 is a completely different style of "characteristic".

I am not saying its bad also. just different.
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      01-17-2014, 01:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelowery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What is the 'tradition' that you speak of exactly? It surely isn't fully bespoke motors. It surely isn't motors that aren't derived from production counterparts (..the S65 is an anomaly). If anything, the S65 was more of a deviation from the 'tradition' that most people here cite than any other ///M motor.
i would agree in terms of how the engine was made or developed. BUT in terms of engine characteristics. the S65 did have a m feel to it.

going from a E46 M3 to a E92 M3. all that was different was it had 8 pistons. hell the V8 wasn't even that much of a bigger engine either.

where the F80 is a completely different style of "characteristic".

I am not saying its bad also. just different.
The inherent problem with statements about the F8X is simply this......


.....none of us have driven the car. It is really impossible to make statements about how the motor will differ in feel when we have zero experience with it. Sure, we can infer, suppose and hypothesize, but there's really no validity in that. We won't know until we know.
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      01-17-2014, 02:20 AM   #5
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Why opening a new thread, were it is clear that there is no chance of an common sence ... and meanings that not all is really great at the new M3/M4 are simply not accepted ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
The inherent problem with statements about the F8X is simply this......


.....none of us have driven the car. It is really impossible to make statements about how the motor will differ in feel when we have zero experience with it. Sure, we can infer, suppose and hypothesize, but there's really no validity in that. We won't know until we know.
You are totally RIGHT ... nearly none in this forum has driven the new M3/M4, so that none ´can say definetly how it was and feels.

BUT its an fact, that for the first time in more that 25years of M History an engine was choosen mostly (only?) about cost saving reason and not about what is the best for the car - clearly also in the past the costs play an role, but even clearly not such an inportant as today.
Undisputed the new M3/M4 would be much better than the old M3 and also clearly "the best performing base M3 ever" but there would ever be the question, if it could have performing better, if the engine decission was made more about performance instead about costsaving.

I love the new F80M3 for its looks, performance and the many nice small weight saving gimmicks, but I really don´t know, if I could accept this engine desission and pay the high extra price for an M3 knowing, I wouild get less M engine spirit as in my previous two M3s (E46+E90) !?
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      01-17-2014, 02:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT
Why opening a new thread, were it is clear that there is no chance of an common sence ... and meanings that not all is really great at the new M3/M4 are simply not accepted ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
The inherent problem with statements about the F8X is simply this......


.....none of us have driven the car. It is really impossible to make statements about how the motor will differ in feel when we have zero experience with it. Sure, we can infer, suppose and hypothesize, but there's really no validity in that. We won't know until we know.
You are totally RIGHT ... nearly none in this forum has driven the new M3/M4, so that none can say definetly how it was and feels.

BUT its an fact, that for the first time in more that 25years of M History an engine was choosen mostly (only?) about cost saving reason and not about what is the best for the car - clearly also in the past the costs play an role, but even clearly not such an inportant as today.
Undisputed the new M3/M4 would be much better than the old M3 and also clearly "the best performing base M3 ever" but there would ever be the question, if it could have performing better, if the engine decission was made more about performance instead about costsaving.

I love the new F80M3 for its looks, performance and the many nice small weight saving gimmicks, but I really dont know, if I could accept this engine desission and pay the high extra price for an M3 knowing, I wouild get less M engine spirit as in my previous two M3s (E46+E90) !?
Just out of curiosity.....


....are you suggesting that the E30, E36, and E46 M motors weren't about cost savings? If so I'd highly disagree. Thanks for the response BTW.
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      01-17-2014, 02:33 AM   #7
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Cue entrance of Ezio from stage left
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      01-17-2014, 02:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Just out of curiosity.....


....are you suggesting that the E30, E36, and E46 M motors weren't about cost savings? If so I'd highly disagree. Thanks for the response BTW.
But I wrote:
Quote:
...clearly also in the past the costs play an role, but even clearly not such an inportant as today.
I think that should make my suggestions clear !?
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      01-17-2014, 02:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy335 View Post
Cue entrance of Ezio from stage left
LOL.

M3 'tradition' is a 2.3/2.5 litre 4 cylinder producing from 200-238-380(DTM) bhp.

Cheers
Robin
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      01-17-2014, 02:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Just out of curiosity.....


....are you suggesting that the E30, E36, and E46 M motors weren't about cost savings? If so I'd highly disagree. Thanks for the response BTW.
But I wrote:
Quote:
...clearly also in the past the costs play an role, but even clearly not such an inportant as today.
I think that should make my suggestions clear !?
You got me! Lol!
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      01-17-2014, 06:09 AM   #11
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if anything the E9X deviated the most with that muscle car V8. the return to an inline 6 is a welcome back to BMW roots. Don't ever think that turbos are not a part of BMW history......remember that the BMW 2002 Turbo was one of the first mass produced turbo'd cars in the world and arguably the prototype to all m cars.
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      01-17-2014, 06:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
if anything the E9X deviated the most with that muscle car V8. the return to an inline 6 is a welcome back to BMW roots. Don't ever think that turbos are not a part of BMW history......remember that the BMW 2002 Turbo was one of the first mass produced turbo'd cars in the world and arguably the prototype to all m cars.
Exactly.

The 1972(?) BMW Turbo prototype was M1's father so to speak (They're more or less lookalikes, except for the engine part)

Way before //M(otorsport) GmbH even existed.

Cheers
Robin
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      01-17-2014, 06:36 AM   #13
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Coming from the UK all that modern motoring seems to be about is emissions and mpg. Taxation levels and fuel costs plus the general motor trade targets of achieving a group wide emissions levels sadly cannot be ignored.

I'm certain that without this BMW would have LOVED to have put a NA V8 back in play but it was always going to be a turbo smaller capacity engine.

Having said that, looks to be a great job that's been done.

I think the main item that is back to tradition is the lower vehicle weight, many many benefits to this and I think a lot of cost and effort has gone into this along with engine development.
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      01-17-2014, 06:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
if anything the E9X deviated the most with that muscle car V8. the return to an inline 6 is a welcome back to BMW roots. Don't ever think that turbos are not a part of BMW history......remember that the BMW 2002 Turbo was one of the first mass produced turbo'd cars in the world and arguably the prototype to all m cars.
Ah ... oh no, I think you will fool us ... the S65 an muscle car V8 !?!?!?

And an turbo inline 6 an welcome back to the roots "of the M-GmbH" sorry, but that can come only from an .35i owner, with simple little idea of the history and spirit of the M-GmbH.
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      01-17-2014, 07:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy335 View Post
Cue entrance of Ezio from stage left




Spot on!
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      01-17-2014, 07:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
if anything the E9X deviated the most with that muscle car V8. the return to an inline 6 is a welcome back to BMW roots. Don't ever think that turbos are not a part of BMW history......remember that the BMW 2002 Turbo was one of the first mass produced turbo'd cars in the world and arguably the prototype to all m cars.

A 4 cylinder turbo M3 is not that far away. I predict a 4cyl turbo coming to M3/4 cars over the next 2 models cycles (Gxx cars?). Think of the Porsche 918. Hybrid electric and turbo engines. I know it sounds ludicrous to some, but there is no denying that it is the future. And the lag-free electric engine torque is surely something I can get used to.


So in a way, the s55 is an instant classic. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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      01-17-2014, 07:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ///M235i View Post
A 4 cylinder turbo M3 is not that far away. I predict a 4cyl turbo coming to M3/4 cars over the next 2 models cycles (Gxx cars?). Think of the Porsche 918. Hybrid electric and turbo engines. I know it sounds ludicrous to some, but there is no denying that it is the future. And the lag-free electric engine torque is surely something I can get used to.
I guess you are right ... there are rumors that for an short period of time BMW really think about an I4 Turbo in the F8xM3/M4 and this real lightweight engine was allready tested in F8x testmules with ~400hp(+) ... but decided that this step (V8 -> I4!) would be too great for the customers !?

Most probably this would be the engine which fin his way in the coming M2 !
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      01-17-2014, 09:27 AM   #18
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Face it fellas, there really is no tradition of an MCar engine except high performance.
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      01-17-2014, 09:45 AM   #19
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Whoops!!

I was referring to engine characteristics of the smooth, high revving, awesome sounding engine. (Not that it wont sound awesome.)

With turbos, my opinion is that it will be drastically different (think e60 to f10 m5).

Every time i hear deviation because of a v8 I think really? Have you driven both e46/e90 because they are very similar - i think the 2 extra cylinders were needed to give an already outstanding engine just some more oomph while retaining its characteristics. They are very very close.

Every time i hear / read someone say oh back to i6 like e46 i think really? Turbo engines are vastly different than na engines regardless of cylinder configs.

This is why im asking. No doubt the new engine is going to be a BEAST but hoping it will retain some of the characteristics of all the m3s from the past but who am i kidding, its just going to be in your face power everywhere like all bmw turbos (impulse charging tech, hoping it will be that good to minimize lag).

Regarding muscle car v8 - this new engine will be more muscle car than the v8.
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      01-17-2014, 09:57 AM   #20
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Posted some pictures here.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...0#post15284640
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      01-17-2014, 10:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079
Going back to an I6 config. But turbos obviously.

Back to tradition (as ive seen commented plenty of times) or even further from it?

In my opinion, even the v8 was very similar to previous gen m3 engines.

Are we entering f10 m5 beast mode style engines from here on out?

Lets hear it.
What is the 'tradition' that you speak of exactly? It surely isn't fully bespoke motors. It surely isn't motors that aren't derived from base car production counterparts (..the S65 is an anomaly; it was still derived from the S85 though). If anything, the S65 was more of a deviation from the 'tradition' that most people here cite than any other ///M motor.
I don't think the OP ever mentioned "fully bespoke motors" or "engines not derived from production counterparts," so putting those words into his mouth isn't exactly fair to him. On the other hand, in fairness to you, he didn't exactly specify the "tradition" to which he was referring.

Simply put though, the tradition for M3 engines--over four generations of the vehicle and nearly 30 years--has always been high revving, naturally aspirated. All the old ///M advertising (80s and 90s; maybe even into the 2000s, although I can't pick out a particular ad in my mind) even used to tout this as the M3's defining characteristic.

With that said, the new M3 engine is still relatively high revving (although some may not think so because we've been spoiled by 8400 RPMs with the S65) and the "naturally aspirated" focus was always about throttle response rather than some outright hatred of forced induction. If the new engine can provide good throttle response with little turbo lag and remain heat soak free over normal lapping, I think we'll still have a winner. We'll just have to wait and see.
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      01-17-2014, 10:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Is that little turbine the secret recipe??
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