To Dinan or not to Dinan?

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by ItIsChrisM

I'm neither pro Dinan nor anti Dinan, I don't really care, but is this true? Tracking the care technically voids their warranty? I'm sure it's another one of those "probably never have to worry about it" clauses they throw in just to cover their ass but I've never seen that come up in discussions before.

Originally Posted by BMWZ4

Good question. Source?

Sure. Go to the Dinan warranty page, and scroll down to the exclusions section. Among the excluded items is "any vehicle operated in a competitive event." I'm sure anyone could split hairs and say that means the Monaco GP, but when I go to hpde's, or auto-x, or track day, I get a little competitive. It also excludes cars that don't follow what the OE user manual says.

Look, I say if you want more performance, go for what you think is best. Just don't think you're bullet proof because a salesman promises you Valahallah. You fuck it up, it's extremely likely you're going to pay for it. Automotive industry warranties are mostly bullshit.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Sure. Go to the Dinan warranty page, and scroll down to the exclusions section. Among the excluded items is "any vehicle operated in a competitive event." I'm sure anyone could split hairs and say that means the Monaco GP, but when I go to hpde's, or auto-x, or track day, I get a little competitive. It also excludes cars that don't follow what the OE user manual says.

Look, I say if you want more performance, go for what you think is best. Just don't think you're bullet proof because a salesman promises you Valahallah. You fuck it up, it's extremely likely you're going to pay for it. Automotive industry warranties are mostly bullshit.

Jesus, you are freaking reaching here. What's the beef? You seem like not even being a glass half empty guy.. you think a drop missing is empty, huh?

HPDEs are not considered competitive events. Period. Who cares if you "get a little competitive"? (btw, you should never be competitive at HPDEs.. that is not their intent at all. you're doing it wrong)

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by BMWZ4

Good question. Source?

http://www.dinancars.com/warranty/

CARS COVERED BY THE ORIGINAL VEHICLE MANUFACTURER’S NEW CAR LIMITED WARRANTY
blah blah blah
The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts. The decision to repair or replace said parts is at the sole discretion of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer.

THE DINAN LIMITED WARRANTY SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES:
blah blah blah
any vehicle operated in any competitive event

So let's say your engine blows and BMW says it was the boost that did it, but Dinan says it was a defective BMW part that did it. Not to mention it happens during auto-cross or something. This is why some people argue the Dinan warranty is a myth.

At least that's what the attorney I'm sleeping with says, and she can be a total bitch.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

http://www.dinancars.com/warranty/

CARS COVERED BY THE ORIGINAL VEHICLE MANUFACTURER’S NEW CAR LIMITED WARRANTY
blah blah blah
The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer’s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts. The decision to repair or replace said parts is at the sole discretion of Dinan and/or the original vehicle manufacturer.

THE DINAN LIMITED WARRANTY SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES:
blah blah blah
any vehicle operated in any competitive event

So let's say your engine blows and BMW says it was the boost that did it, but Dinan says it was a defective BMW part that did it. Not to mention it happens during auto-cross or something. This is why some people argue the Dinan warranty is a myth.

At least that's what the attorney I'm sleeping with says, and she can be a total bitch.

.and what does your BMW warranty say (and your insurance)? This is not a racing warranty, and I hope folks do not think it is as such. Wouldn't you expect that language to be there?

I do lots of HPDEs, which are not competitive events. If you do competitive racing and expect your engine to be covered, give it up. That doesn't happen.

I LOVE the sound of my car, I like the added throttle response and boost, my engine bay looks cooler and I'm way quicker in this car than my E92 M3.. Plus, I have a warranty. What's not win-win about that?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by larryn

I LOVE the sound of my car, I like the added throttle response and boost, my engine bay looks cooler and I'm way quicker in this car than my E92 M3.. Plus, I have a warranty. What's not win-win about that?

That's awesome and that's really all that counts. My point is purely nerdy technical ... that being: In the small probability case that one is pushed over to the Dinan warranty for disaster coverage ... are you covered?

I'm convinced there's a high probability that Dinan will not cover you, thus the extra price for the coverage isn't worth it ... but then, this is all nerdy opinions and guesswork. And when you zoom back out and forget the warranty, maybe the price of the Dinan stuff is just worth it because, for you, it is. And to your point, you also get the Dinan coverage whatever it might be, so who cares?

Let's all just celebrate we have these cars and an industry anxious to build hobbyist mods for us

[Blksnowflake]

This thread is lol...you would think there is a behind the scenes war going on between Dinan, BMW and people who tune their cars.

Realistically speaking, using common sense...you would have a much much easier time dealing with any issues that arise on your Dinan tuned car that had parts installed right there at the dealer you bought your car from who sells and installs Dinan parts through there authorized Dinan center, than you would a car tuned with something else.

Yes Dinan isn't the most horse power producing tune for dollar, but when you have it installed right there in your BMW service department, it makes it the safest of them all to navigate through if your car has issues. It isn't fool proof, but offers the best peace of mind that can be had in this context.

If your dealer doesn't have a Dinan Center than I can't speak for that, speaking directly moreso of BMW dealers with a Dinan service center. Of which in my case they even offered it as parts I could add on to my loan, all fully covered, out of the finance and sales manager's mouths into my ears.

I myself will likely go with a VF tune and when it comes down to it, if you want to modify your car out of factory specs, stop being a little bitch and accept the consequences. There is no need to quote and produce all this warranty BS details as if this is a revelation, if you miss an oil change on your stock OEM car, BMW can void your warranty, woopty doo...goodness gracious guys.

[BMWZ4]

^ This...."...It isn't fool proof, but offers the best peace of mind that can be had in this context..."

[Dinan_Engineering]

I normally don't get into these type of threads just because its pointless but since this thread seems to just keep going I feel I should at least comment... Everyone has their own pre-thought out opinion on Dinan that is typically deep rooted for some illogical reason or another. I'm not going to battle everyone as thats not my job and everyone's opinion is their own but the amount of supposition here is just mind boggling.

Dinan has a rep here, me, so use the resource if you have an actual question or want clarification on a program. Just ask-- there is no need to assume anything. I will answer to the best of my ability. Not much of one for sugar coating if I can avoid it anyway. Just bites you in the end.

Couple corrections/clarifications:

Warranty

1. If the warranty isn't worth it to you, fine, move on. but to say its a mythical entity is laughable. We wouldn't be present in ~50% of the BMW dealership base if we didn't follow through on our warranty promise. Its the reputation of BMW and the dealership itself that would suffer just the same as Dinan if those claims were not handled.
2. The racing clause in the warranty statement is there more for legal reasons then anything. BMW's CPO warranties prohibit modification of the tire, as in, you can't use a different tire then what came on the car. To my knowledge this has never been enforced but its in the statement nonetheless for what I can only assume, are liability reasons. Dinan's clause is similar in that we are putting it in there as a clause for those that just ABUSE the car at the track. No race motor is warrantied when its sole purpose is to churn power at redline for X hours. Its life is simply reduced in those conditions. Being liable for you pushing the car beyond its physical limits for extended periods of time is not something we should be held liable for. The track is abusive and hard on a car and typically those there, push the car beyond what is deemed "reasonable". The vast majority of the parts we sell our street parts, meant for street driving, not race parts. Its really as simple as that. That said, in the end ... how are we going to prove you were at a track and it was a track car short of the car coming into the shop with a roll cage anyway?

Selling of the Company / Steve Dinan

1. Yes we are owned by an investment firm at this point and are part of DP Brands (Flowmaster, Hurst, B&M). Has been this way for nearly 3 years at this point. We are ultimately in a better place now then we ever have been as we have more capital to expand, acquire, etc then we EVER had when owned privately. Simply more resources at our disposal so costs go down and productivity goes up. Hence why we are quickly expanding into a variety of other marques. The only downside of the investment firm (bean counters) is that we are held more to a timetable to produce results which in the end isn't a bad thing anyway. Gets more product to market quicker.
2. While Steve is no longer direct part of the company he is around quite frequently-- couple times a week at this point. I'll summarize what he has said just recently--- "My passion is racing. I only have 10-20 years left so I want to do something I love." He simply got out of the day to day to pursue what he really enjoys, racing, is all. Might as well cash out and enjoy yourself. I don't think anyone can blame him for that.

I'm sure I'm missing some points I should correct but those are the ones that seemingly keep being brought up.

[Blksnowflake]

^Freaking thank you.

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by shortseller

^ Oh my god, do your own research, visit the site, makes the calls to get the facts! What the hell are you talking about?

Oh my god, I did my own research and led me to my own opinions just like everyone here, thx.
Now what the hell are you talking about. "rolleyes back".

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

Oh my god, I did my own research and led me to my own opinions just like everyone here, thx.
Now what the hell are you talking about. "rolleyes back".

You miss understood my post. I was making my point sarcastically, agreeing with the Dinan post. That most here have no idea what they are saying, basing comments mostly on hearsay. Nothing to do with your post, to which we both agree with the Dinan post, as to how things get way out of perspective from comments that have nothing to do with facts. It's All good man!

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

I normally don't get into these type of threads just because its pointless but since this thread seems to just keep going I feel I should at least comment... Everyone has their own pre-thought out opinion on Dinan that is typically deep rooted for some illogical reason or another. I'm not going to battle everyone as thats not my job and everyone's opinion is their own but the amount of supposition here is just mind boggling.

Dinan has a rep here, me, so use the resource if you have an actual question or want clarification on a program. Just ask-- there is no need to assume anything. I will answer to the best of my ability. Not much of one for sugar coating if I can avoid it anyway. Just bites you in the end.

Couple corrections/clarifications:

Warranty

1. If the warranty isn't worth it to you, fine, move on. but to say its a mythical entity is laughable. We wouldn't be present in ~50% of the BMW dealership base if we didn't follow through on our warranty promise. Its the reputation of BMW and the dealership itself that would suffer just the same as Dinan if those claims were not handled.
2. The racing clause in the warranty statement is there more for legal reasons then anything. BMW's CPO warranties prohibit modification of the tire, as in, you can't use a different tire then what came on the car. To my knowledge this has never been enforced but its in the statement nonetheless for what I can only assume, are liability reasons. Dinan's clause is similar in that we are putting it in there as a clause for those that just ABUSE the car at the track. No race motor is warrantied when its sole purpose is to churn power at redline for X hours. Its life is simply reduced in those conditions. Being liable for you pushing the car beyond its physical limits for extended periods of time is not something we should be held liable for. The track is abusive and hard on a car and typically those there, push the car beyond what is deemed "reasonable". The vast majority of the parts we sell our street parts, meant for street driving, not race parts. Its really as simple as that. That said, in the end ... how are we going to prove you were at a track and it was a track car short of the car coming into the shop with a roll cage anyway?

Selling of the Company / Steve Dinan

1. Yes we are owned by an investment firm at this point and are part of DP Brands (Flowmaster, Hurst, B&M). Has been this way for nearly 3 years at this point. We are ultimately in a better place now then we ever have been as we have more capital to expand, acquire, etc then we EVER had when owned privately. Simply more resources at our disposal so costs go down and productivity goes up. Hence why we are quickly expanding into a variety of other marques. The only downside of the investment firm (bean counters) is that we are held more to a timetable to produce results which in the end isn't a bad thing anyway. Gets more product to market quicker.
2. While Steve is no longer direct part of the company he is around quite frequently-- couple times a week at this point. I'll summarize what he has said just recently--- "My passion is racing. I only have 10-20 years left so I want to do something I love." He simply got out of the day to day to pursue what he really enjoys, racing, is all. Might as well cash out and enjoy yourself. I don't think anyone can blame him for that.

I'm sure I'm missing some points I should correct but those are the ones that seemingly keep being brought up.

^ Oh my god, do our own research, visit the site, makes the calls to get the facts! What the hell are you talking about? We can't do that here!

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by shortseller

You miss understood my post. I was making my point sarcastically, agreeing with the Dinan post. That most here have no idea what they are saying, basing comments mostly on hearsay. Nothing to do with your post, to which we both agree with the Dinan post, as to how things get way out of perspective from comments that have nothing to do with facts. It's All good man!

Damn, now I feel like a douche. I promise I'm a good person, lol.
Sarcasm gets lost in print. So much conjecture I got caught up in the game.
Enjoy zee weekend amigo.

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

Damn, now I feel like a douche. I promise I'm a good person, lol.
Sarcasm gets lost in print. So much conjecture I got caught up in the game.
Enjoy zee weekend amigo.

No problem, it's Cool...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

^Freaking thank you.

It's great and all, but thanks for what, repeating the sales pitch? There's no revelations here and the Dinan post amounts to "ours are toasted". (although it's very appreciated by me that they show up and stand up)

Now for some people, "toasted" is BETTER! And 'better' causes nice feelings which make the Dinan premium worth it.

For others, "toasted" is meh, and doesn't do much, so the premium isn't worth it.

As for BMW dealers selling and installing shit, well they'll probably sell me a bag of weed, roll it up into doobies and light one for me too, but that doesn't mean BMW AG is in the weed business.


NOW WITH A DOCTOR'S WARRANTY!

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by larryn

Jesus, you are freaking reaching here. What's the beef? You seem like not even being a glass half empty guy.. you think a drop missing is empty, huh?

HPDEs are not considered competitive events. Period. Who cares if you "get a little competitive"? (btw, you should never be competitive at HPDEs.. that is not their intent at all. you're doing it wrong)

Lol...no, they're not competitive. I can just see you pointing every car by, and yelling "I've got Dinan!" As they fly by. Do you rev your engine to convince them that you're the shit, only its not competitive?

[MNoob]

Some folks on this forum have a very curious but vigorous passion when it comes to expressing disdain for Dinan. Most of the disdain seems to be focused on value. That's what's so curious to me, this being an M3 forum. The irony.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Lol...no, they're not competitive. I can just see you pointing every car by, and yelling "I've got Dinan!" As they fly by. Do you rev your engine to convince them that you're the shit, only its not competitive?

I try to get consistent fast laps. That's what you goal should be. If you are seeing a GT3 in front of you and driving like an ass to get in front of it, again, you're doing ti wrong and I'm glad I'm not on the track with you.

As it is, I'm one of the faster cars in the advanced RGs, and rarely do point-bys. That's not saying I'm a blocker, because I always keep my eyes in my rearview mirror and do not think twice about lifting and letting a faster car(s) though.

I'm very happy with my choices, and folks that have no clue about the the product, or have a competing product and want to justify their purchase baffle me. For you to try to convice me I shouldn't be happy with my purchases is just plain douchebaggery. Throwing it out there. Deserved too.

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

It's great and all, but thanks for what, repeating the sales pitch? There's no revelations here and the Dinan post amounts to "ours are toasted". (although it's very appreciated by me that they show up and stand up)

Now for some people, "toasted" is BETTER! And 'better' causes nice feelings which make the Dinan premium worth it.

For others, "toasted" is meh, and doesn't do much, so the premium isn't worth it.

As for BMW dealers selling and installing shit, well they'll probably sell me a bag of weed, roll it up into doobies and light one for me too, but that doesn't mean BMW AG is in the weed business.

NOW WITH A DOCTOR'S WARRANTY!

Selling weed...now youre reaching, if you're here for comedic relief, then well done. Back to reality, how many Dinan tuned BMWs have been refused warranty work. What are the numbers compared to sales, is this a rampant issue, are there hundreds, dozens...how many since Dinan has had this guarantee have been left to hang.
I get it, costs more than what people think it's worth. It's not the "best" tune compared to other options. But to outright speculate, conjecture and what if about unicorns crashing into your engine and Dinan backing out of their warranty, ridiculous. I'm not debating their price, my point is purely related to the relative safety net afforded by Dinan respective of other tunes while offering a level of performance satisfactory to those that aren't looking for #beastmode everytime they pull out of their drive way.
As anyone who's dealt with the customer service industry can attest, the customer isn't "always right", there are dumb asses out there and the warranty isn't in place for dumbasses wrecking their cars with frankenstein mods everywhere.
Don't know what more you want than a manufacturer themselves backing their claim.

[brianplee]

In 1997 I bought an e36 M3 and soon had Dinan install their suspension and supercharger kits. I put 100,000 miles on the modified car before selling it 12 years later. I attended about 8-10 track events per year. The early supercharger kits from Powerdyne had some issues with the belts failing and Dinan stepped up and covered the replacement under warranty. Although I never needed BMW warranty work, Dinan's support of their products was flawless for me.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

But to outright speculate, conjecture and what if about unicorns crashing into your engine and Dinan backing out of their warranty, ridiculous.

Contract law is a pretty serious field of study and while the outcome of any specific case can't be accurately predicted, complexities can.

I have nothing but respect from Dinan - both their product and the fact their rep is willing to jump into threads like this. My only point is to inform others: if you think you're buying a guarantee, you're not.

I'm sure the argument the Dinan rep laid out is both well intentioned and he/she believes it ... but ... Anybody that's been around sport car forums for more than few years could probably count off at least 5 examples, even if you only focused on auto manufacturers, not backing their warranty (others have mentioned this). Happens all of the time.

As to your "unicorns crashing" point - maybe you remember that this type of insurance is only FOR edge cases. E.g., Your household fire insurance isn't for your t-shirt that got a hole from your BBQ grill, it's the edge case your house burns down. Most people never use it. That's why it's called an edge case. It's for the low probability disaster scenario.

This low probability disaster scenario is what you're paying Dinan a premium for, so that's all we're talking about. At least all I'm talking about.

It's the one that's big enough to call lawyers. And if you've ever been involved in anything where lawyers are called you know all that good will evaporates before you can say, "but I didn't even think unicorns existed!"

It's not Dinan I'm questioning, it's their attorneys.

But, hey, to your point if Dinan would like to release all of their data on claims, amounts, time from 1st filing to payment, etc I'm all for them sharing it!

That's a great idea: Let's see Dinan's warranty claims data for the last 10 years. Then we can all judge value for ourselves.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

But, hey, to your point if Dinan would like to release all of their data on claims, amounts, time from 1st filing to payment, etc I'm all for them sharing it!

That's a great idea: Let's see Dinan's warranty claims data for the last 10 years. Then we can all judge value for ourselves.

Never happening. For the simple fact that its a double edged sword that has no good end for Dinan, no matter the intentions. If claim numbers are viewed as too low then people will say its a mild product and a waste of money. If claim numbers are viewed as too high then people will say OMG its a horrible product and breaks all the time. No matter which side you are its a negative on our end. The best you can hope to get from me is a percentage... about 3-10% of our monthly sales are going back out in warranty claims. It varies pretty wildly month to month depending on new releases that may have a tweak that's needed in the field and thus we have to rectify those, BMW issues that get pegged as Dinan issues even though they aren't but we are obligated to pay anyway (rattling N54 turbos, E38/39 transmissions as examples), labor reimbursements for various reasons, or just simply warranty claims because Dinan was deemed to blame for whatever breakage.

At least in my tenure I can think of no time that we have had to resort to lawyers. Its in everyone's best interest to resolve problems well before it gets to that point.

Again, if you don't feel the warranty is worth it to you then move on. I see the warranty program in action every day and know its value. I am sure ANY of the vendors on these forums that deal with Dinan have had interaction with the warranty team and can attest to its legitimacy.