Tools for beginners

[shaftwhy]

So I am fast(or bad) enough to significantly wear the outside of front right tire (picture attached).

Other than obvious getting more camber from -2.5 to probably -3.0, I think I need to swap left and right tire as well since the track is really hard on front right.

Don't laugh at me but I have never done it myself before. Any recommendation for a suit of tools for beginners? Don't plan take them to track yet, do it at home should be good enough I think.

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

So I am fast(or bad) enough to significantly wear the outside of front right tire (picture attached).

Other than obvious getting more camber from -2.5 to probably -3.0, I think I need to swap left and right tire as well since the track is really hard on front right.

Don't laugh at me but I have never done it myself before. Any recommendation for a suit of tools for beginners? Don't plan take them to track yet, do it at home should be good enough I think.

Welcome to the addiction...

If you are new to HPDE then I don't think you should start with camber adjustment etc. but focus on driver development first and foremost, smooth inputs etc. Within reason, excessive shoulder wear can be mitigated by raising the tire pressure to even the wear pattern across the tire. Also, are you understeering a lot during the turns? If so, try entering the turns slower (slow in, fast out), so that there is less scrubbing off.

As for tire change tools here is what you need:

1. 17 mm lug socket, ideally with a plastic sleeve to protect your nice wheels.
2. torque wrench to get to 88 torque
3. breaker bar, if your wheels have been put on by a shop that just blasts them on, meaning you need about 200 to get them off first time!
4. Lose the locking nut visible in the picture, you don't want them on the track
5. 1.5 ton racing floor jack from harbor freight for $70 or so
6. Hockey puck or plastic cut out to fit the bracket on you car for the jack.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Welcome to the addiction...

If you are new to HPDE then I don't think you should start with camber adjustment etc. but focus on driver development first and foremost, smooth inputs etc. Within reason, excessive shoulder wear can be mitigated by raising the tire pressure to even the wear pattern across the tire. Also, are you understeering a lot during the turns? If so, try entering the turns slower (slow in, fast out), so that there is less scrubbing off.

Thanks. This is my third year, didn't have many sessions per year though.
I am reasonably not too slow. I have gone through the understeer phase, recently in the phase of optimizing trail braking for some turns. The excessive shoulder wear is result of that. I'd like to think I just graduated from -2.5 camber and hope I am not wrong, LOL.

Originally Posted by Candide13

As for tire change tools here is what you need:

1. 17 mm lug socket, ideally with a plastic sleeve to protect your nice wheels.
2. torque wrench to get to 88 torque
3. breaker bar, if your wheels have been put on by a shop that just blasts them on, meaning you need about 200 to get them off first time!
4. Lose the locking nut visible in the picture, you don't want them on the track
5. 1.5 ton racing floor jack from harbor freight for $70 or so
6. Hockey puck or plastic cut out to fit the bracket on you car for the jack.

Thanks a lot! Do I need a electric gun (or the correct name) to ease the screw/unscrew and leave torque wrench as last fine tuning, at the same time it can serve as a breaker bar if some shop did put 200 there?

[r4dr]

Is this your DD? Once you start getting to -3* or so, that gets a little touchy for the street in my opinion. I would bet you would benefit from running those tires with a bit more air. What temps were you seeing? Does your left tire have the same outside wear?

You can have a tire shop swap them from left to right. This gives you a fresh outside shoulder but in this case you've worn what would be the inside shoulder so much that I'd be cautious to run those much longer. You're a couple sessions away from the cords.

Do you run with the local clubs? Maybe I'll see you out there at the Ridge or Pacific

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Is this your DD? Once you start getting to -3* or so, that gets a little touchy for the street in my opinion. I would bet you would benefit from running those tires with a bit more air. What temps were you seeing? Does your left tire have the same outside wear?

Yes this is my DD. Touchy as in wear or handling? I forgot the temperature but it might be close to 200 or higher? The pressure was close to 40 all around so I didn't give more air. As a matter a fact I let air go to make it stay under 40. My left tire is in perfect shape.

Originally Posted by r4dr

You can have a tire shop swap them from left to right. This gives you a fresh outside shoulder but in this case you've worn what would be the inside shoulder so much that I'd be cautious to run those much longer. You're a couple sessions away from the cords.

Make sense. Thanks for the heads up.

Originally Posted by r4dr

Do you run with the local clubs? Maybe I'll see you out there at the Ridge or Pacific

I run with Proformance, because they have a lot of track days, don't need much time plan ahead. The track is close to work, it starts around noon so I can work a few hours then go there. However they are often packed with first time beginners, which I have to constantly pit to get a big gap. One time I saw a 10 cars train driving at highway speed on track, quite a scene.

But on a good day when there is not many slow cars, since they don't run sessions, you can just drive until running out of gas or stamina, go get more gas as recover and cool down, then keep driving. I can get 140 mins of track time (actually on track) in just one afternoon.

I do miss that at a regular track day, I get more socialization with other drivers, vesus here, just work, work, focusing on maximizing track time.

I will see you out there as well, let me know when you are going to Pacific!

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Thanks. This is my third year, didn't have many sessions per year though.
I am reasonably not too slow. I have gone through the understeer phase, recently in the phase of optimizing trail braking for some turns. The excessive shoulder wear is result of that. I'd like to think I just graduated from -2.5 camber and hope I am not wrong, LOL.



Thanks a lot! Do I need a electric gun (or the correct name) to ease the screw/unscrew and leave torque wrench as last fine tuning, at the same time it can serve as a breaker bar if some shop did put 200 there?

Yes absolutely get yourself a 1/2 impact gun. Does not need to be a $300 one or anything, ryobi or better is fine. It's probably my favorite tool in the box now and makes tire changes extremely fast.

Based on that picture, your pressures probably arent too bad, leave as is. You're not rolling over the sidewall or anything. Unfortunately you really needed to flip (take RH tire and put on LH wheel) to even-out the wear. You might have trouble getting a shop to do that now given the outside wear. If you can, then go ahead and do it now, but plan ahead (you don't want to waste a full trackday at the tire shop, have extra tires if you cord these) since you're getting close to cording. Looks like a decent amount of meat on the inside tho.

Next time around, try rotating your wheels around ever 3-4 sessions. ex. If the driver side is getting abused, put it on the passenger side to help even out wear. Then once the outside edge wears through the major tread line, dismount the tire and put it on the other side (inside is now on the outside).

Lastly, try not to overheat these RE71s too much as it will just make them wear even faster.

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Yes this is my DD. Touchy as in wear or handling? I forgot the temperature but it might be close to 200 or higher? The pressure was close to 40 all around so I didn't give more air. As a matter a fact I let air go to make it stay under 40. My left tire is in perfect shape.

Touchy as in handling on the street. I have around -3.5* to -4* up front on a dedicated track car and it likes to dart around on the freeway if I'm not paying attention. Especially those damn seams on I-5 that are RIGHT where the tire is in the lane... I only drive it to and from the track but I would not enjoy that for my DD.

If your left tire is in perfect shape then you could also just swap left to right on the front. The tread will be going in the wrong direction but that only matters for evacuation of water (DO NOT do this in the wet).

You might want to try going down to ~35-37 lbs hot. Without sitting in your right seat I'm not going to say you should adjust your driving, that's impossible to say over the internet.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Yes absolutely get yourself a 1/2 impact gun. Does not need to be a $300 one or anything, ryobi or better is fine. It's probably my favorite tool in the box now and makes tire changes extremely fast.

Based on that picture, your pressures probably arent too bad, leave as is. You're not rolling over the sidewall or anything. Unfortunately you really needed to flip (take RH tire and put on LH wheel) to even-out the wear. You might have trouble getting a shop to do that now given the outside wear. If you can, then go ahead and do it now, but plan ahead (you don't want to waste a full trackday at the tire shop, have extra tires if you cord these) since you're getting close to cording. Looks like a decent amount of meat on the inside tho.

Next time around, try rotating your wheels around ever 3-4 sessions. ex. If the driver side is getting abused, put it on the passenger side to help even out wear. Then once the outside edge wears through the major tread line, dismount the tire and put it on the other side (inside is now on the outside).

Lastly, try not to overheat these RE71s too much as it will just make them wear even faster.

Thanks a lot! Yep will try to check whether a shop will do it or not. This is also my DD, probably should dismount and swap right before next track day, right? Otherwise the outside become inside and daily drive would just ruin it.

I might have overheated those tires a bit as I was trying to get more track time wit little stop.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Touchy as in handling on the street. I have around -3.5* to -4* up front on a dedicated track car and it likes to dart around on the freeway if I'm not paying attention. Especially those damn seams on I-5 that are RIGHT where the tire is in the lane... I only drive it to and from the track but I would not enjoy that for my DD.

Oh I-5, my current setup is darting on I-5 already. Only can be worse probably .

Originally Posted by r4dr

If your left tire is in perfect shape then you could also just swap left to right on the front. The tread will be going in the wrong direction but that only matters for evacuation of water (DO NOT do this in the wet).

Noted on water. Since right outside is left outside after this swap, do I need to worry about getting corded on left outside. Right now they are perfect because I wear inside more on street, outside more on track, they somehow evens out.

Originally Posted by r4dr

You might want to try going down to ~35-37 lbs hot. Without sitting in your right seat I'm not going to say you should adjust your driving, that's impossible to say over the internet.

Will that give me possibly more outside wear so more negative camber is inevitable? It's always correct to say to adjust my driving The car is better than my driving for sure.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Welcome to the addiction...

If you are new to HPDE then I don't think you should start with camber adjustment etc. but focus on driver development first and foremost, smooth inputs etc. Within reason, excessive shoulder wear can be mitigated by raising the tire pressure to even the wear pattern across the tire. Also, are you understeering a lot during the turns? If so, try entering the turns slower (slow in, fast out), so that there is less scrubbing off.

As for tire change tools here is what you need:

1. 17 mm lug socket, ideally with a plastic sleeve to protect your nice wheels.
2. torque wrench to get to 88 torque
3. breaker bar, if your wheels have been put on by a shop that just blasts them on, meaning you need about 200 to get them off first time!
4. Lose the locking nut visible in the picture, you don't want them on the track
5. 1.5 ton racing floor jack from harbor freight for $70 or so
6. Hockey puck or plastic cut out to fit the bracket on you car for the jack.

True for the E9X that has 12mm lugs. However, the 14mm lugs on the F8X require 105 lb-ft

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

True for the E9X that has 12mm lugs. However, the 14mm lugs on the F8X require 105 lb-ft

Thanks for the catch! I knew some things got bigger in this generation, but I did not know about this one

Also, yes, a 1/2 inch impact wrench is a very nice thing to have and will make you the envy of the paddock. I got a good deal on a DeWalt tool and I love it. LPT: don't get one that delivers 200 torque, get a weaker one; eg mine does something like 84-86 when fastening. That means I can use the wrench both for taking the bolts off and for putting them back on. After that, I just tighten with the torque wrench to spec.

The very long sessions with the open track format are probably contributing to the wear, as the tire might get very hot at the end. I know that with Nitto 01 tires wear increases dramatically one they get hotter than 40.

Finally, yes, don't hesitate switching left/right in dry weather, even if it mean running them backwards; "it's a speed secret running them backwards" one of my instructors used to say..

Have fun!



Edit: I also got a $10 alignment pin, which you screw into one of the lug holes, so then alignment of the wheel is easy.

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Noted on water. Since right outside is left outside after this swap, do I need to worry about getting corded on left outside. Right now they are perfect because I wear inside more on street, outside more on track, they somehow evens out.

If you think about the direction Pacific runs in (counter-clockwise) and that all the big, long and fast turns are in that direction, I think you will be fine.

Also someone mentioned session length -- that definitely contributes, and it makes total sense now. Proformance lets you run til you drop but that means everything gets hot, stays hot, and gets even hotter. Versus a club day where you get 20 min then 40-60 min of cooldown time.

Maybe work some cooldown laps in? It's not just your brakes to cool down, it's everything. Also, once you start really pushing your car, your brakes will need to be cooled down. I know some A drivers who have taken all the cooling precautions possible just so that it lasts for 25 min at a time.

Will that give me possibly more outside wear so more negative camber is inevitable? It's always correct to say to adjust my driving The car is better than my driving for sure.

I just meant I don't want to make assumptions without being in your right seat. 40 seems a little high to me for 71R tires, but it could work for your car. Going down to 37-38 could put more force towards the inside of the tire in the corners since the tire can flex more without being so inflated. The correct way to make that call would be to use a pyrometer and see if your outside shoulder is dramatically hotter than the rest.

[shaftwhy]

Really stupid question:

Do I need two floor jacks so that I can lift both front corners to swap the wheel/tire left to right?

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Really stupid question:

Do I need two floor jacks so that I can lift both front corners to swap the wheel/tire left to right?

Not a stupid question.

No you don't need two jacks for swaps. Race ramps help, or drive up on some blocks of 2x6 wood then you can access the front center lift point. It's a circular shaped piece under the engine. Lift there, take wheels off and swap sides (extra safety...preferably with jackstands at the left/right sides).

Hope that helps!

[MyFragileHalogen]

If you didn't think of, flipping the inside and outside of tires is a must to get more life out of the RE-71R's.

Like mentioned above, sliding front tires (understeering) can cause more wear on shoulders of front tires. You mentioned trail braking at other post, so you probably wouldn't be doing that. Ultimately we want fast-in, fast-out and will just have to bite the cost of it.

[dongerkim]

Portable air compressor. Seriously my favorite thing at the track lol

[shaftwhy]

Asked several tire shops in the area, no shop is willing/allowed to touch the tire below wear bar. Anybody know a shop in Seattle/eastside area can do a quick left/right swap without complying to wear bar and tire direction before I get all the tools to DIY?

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Asked several tire shops in the area, no shop is willing/allowed to touch the tire below wear bar. Anybody know a shop in Seattle/eastside area can do a quick left/right swap without complying to wear bar and tire direction before I get all the tools to DIY?

The only way I had success with flipping my tires is to bring them into the shop OFF the vehicle...luckily I have a 2nd set of wheels that make it easier. I've even thought about buying my own tire machines because of the hassle!

[dim635csi]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Really stupid question:

Do I need two floor jacks so that I can lift both front corners to swap the wheel/tire left to right?

imho, you cannot just swap front wheels with RE-71R, because they are directional - you have to remount front tires on opposite rims. I had a similar situation after 4 days in Laguna Seca (mostly left hand turn track), but right front was corded, so I got a new set for the fronts.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by dim635csi

imho, you cannot just swap front wheels with RE-71R, because they are directional - you have to remount front tires on opposite rims. I had a similar situation after 4 days in Laguna Seca (mostly left hand turn track), but right front was corded, so I got a new set for the fronts.

Sorry, but this is just not true. You can run tires in whatever configuration you want and are comfortable with. Obviously directional tires are designed to work more effectively in one rotational direction (excavating water) but outside of that there should be marginal differences in performance (assuming symmetrical tread compounds). I've ran multiple sets "backwards" and it's been a non-issue, including major downpours.

Here's how my 71s look after 200+ laps, flipped once. Still daily driving on them since I'm a cheap bastard. Driven through 4-5 downpours and still alive. I don't think direction matters much at this point

[dim635csi]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Sorry, but this is just not true. You can run tires in whatever configuration you want and are comfortable with. Obviously directional tires are designed to work more effectively in one rotational direction (excavating water) but outside of that there should be marginal differences in performance (assuming symmetrical tread compounds). I've ran multiple sets "backwards" and it's been a non-issue, including major downpours.

Here's how my 71s look after 200+ laps, flipped once. Still daily driving on them since I'm a cheap bastard. Driven through 4-5 downpours and still alive. I don't think direction matters much at this point

I think it is great track solution (I would do extra two sessions with it next time). I use those tires to drive home after a track day, too, so while "it never rains in California", it may be a wrong prop in this case.

Interestingly, having a new front set of RE-71Rs, with rears like 6 track days and 3 AX events old, I got car very loose at the next AX event. Loose like hell, think drifting.
Managed to balance car setup by playing with the pressure in rear tires (raising it up) and to get at least moderate improvement in handling.

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Asked several tire shops in the area, no shop is willing/allowed to touch the tire below wear bar. Anybody know a shop in Seattle/eastside area can do a quick left/right swap without complying to wear bar and tire direction before I get all the tools to DIY?

Your only option might be to remove both wheels, drive them to the shop and tell them you need to remount them for racing/off road purposes only. Be clear it is not for regular street driving. Then they might do it. Discount tire still won't but some others might (tire rack will do it only for racing at this level, for example, they are local to me).

Other option would be to post on a local FB group to try and find someone that has a tire mounter that can mount them for you.

If you are asking about just swapping the wheels without remounting? You should just get the tools. You are going to be changing wheels constantly if you're going to the track and you want to have tools available to bring with you too. Get a jack, a breaker bar, an impact gun with 17mm impact socket, a torque wrench and a socket set. And some gloves. Harbor freight can get you most of these for pretty cheap, but don't get the impact gun from them lol. Their jacks are the best though.