Motoring magazine M4 GTS vs E46 M3 CSL

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

The weight savings VS the normal model and use of exotic materials just speaks for itself (which is something that 2 gnerations of GTS were never able to achieve VS their regular counterparts).

That's because most of the weight saving technology applied to the CSL made their way into the base M3/4. There aren't many low hanging fruits in terms of weight reduction to be had.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That's because most of the weight saving technology applied to the CSL made their way into the base M3/4. There aren't many low hanging fruits in terms of weight reduction to be had.

I'm not sure what you mean here. the CSL shaved 110kg from the regular M3. The GTS has nowhere near the same weight savings... BMW did not go as far in shredding weight from the GTS as it did with the CSL. The CSL used honeycomb panels and went much further into exotic technology for weight savings than the GTS...

[CanAutM3]

If they simply compare driving dynamics, well for sure, the M4 GTS will be ahead. That's what 20 years of progress and technology does.

However, comparing each car within their respective era, I find BMW struggles to repeat the feat they achieved with the CSL. The MSRP premium of the CSL over the base car was substantially less than what the GTS is commanding over a base M4. Further, the CSL was able to match and even sometimes beat the 911 GT3 on of its era on a track, at a significantly lower price point to boot while keeping its four seats and DD practicality. That's calls for . Something the GTS cannot achieve.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

I'm not sure what you mean here. the CSL shaved 110kg from the regular M3. The GTS has nowhere near the same weight savings... BMW did not go as far in shredding weight from the GTS as it did with the CSL.

The weight savings measures applied to the CSL are now found on the BASE M4 (CF roof, lighter fenders, composite trunk lid, lighter battery, etc...). I am not sure how clearer I can make it.

[mrgicm]

I have the regular M4 and the regular M3 E46, sure the M4 is faster, more powerful but to me the E46 is just a better car. If you come to the Nurburgring today in 2017 you would see a ton of E46 on the track as it is just a sheere pleasure to drive and for such a 'slow' car in todays perspective it sure puts great compeating times on the Tracks all over the world.

[ixm3]

Originally Posted by andrewc89

"I'd take a CSL"

Except you won't...because it's illegal to import into the US until 2029

....

Except that there is at least one in the US legally....

https://i.imgur.com/U21KK0d_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=h igh

[ixm3]

Originally Posted by ixm3

....

Except that there is at least one in the US legally....

https://i.imgur.com/U21KK0d_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=h igh

https://mobile.twitter.com/XPELtech/status/646365698420277248/photo/1

[dmboone25]

I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many who wouldn't take the CSL - it is the ultimate version of what many consider to be the best 3er ever (E46). I would certainly have that over the GTS.

The E46 M3 started my passion and love for BMW - this is a no brainer for me.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by mrgicm

I have the regular M4 and the regular M3 E46, sure the M4 is faster, more powerful but to me the E46 is just a better car. If you come to the Nurburgring today in 2017 you would see a ton of E46 on the track as it is just a sheere pleasure to drive and for such a 'slow' car in todays perspective it sure puts great compeating times on the Tracks all over the world.

You would also see a bunch of modified e36 M3s on the ring as well.

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Literally a comparo between the best and worst M to date.

Funny...cause its true.

[jpdchicago]

Just curious if any of the critics of the GTS on this forum ever drove one (I have my doubts). I have owned M3s for the last 13 years as daily drivers and the GTS is an amazingly better car than any of them. Incredibly connected with the road and responsive... race car vs road car.
I have never owned a CSL (I wish I had) but I am sure it was an incredible machine as well.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Just curious if any of the critics of the GTS on this forum ever drove one (I have my doubts). I have owned M3s for the last 13 years as daily drivers and the GTS is an amazingly better car than any of them. Incredibly connected with the road and responsive... race car vs road car.
I have never owned a CSL (I wish I had) but I am sure it was an incredible machine as well.

I am not sure there is a lot of critiquing of the GTS present in this thread - I simply think that most who have responded would prefer the CSL.

I've never driven either car - but I own an F80 M3, have driven an M4 and an E46 M3, and I know that I would want the CSL. Simple as that.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The weight savings measures applied to the CSL are now found on the BASE M4 (CF roof, lighter fenders, composite trunk lid, lighter battery, etc...). I am not sure how clearer I can make it.

The CSL was the 1st BMW to introduce the CFRP roof but also the 1 piece CFRP bumper. the engineers were told to make the car as lightweight as possible so they shaved 110 kilos in total (50 in the cabin). I don't believe the GTS got the same extreme weight saving diet as the CSL. With the carbon fiber technology BMW currently has, it would have been possible for them to reduce the weight more in the GTS but BMW was more interested in making money than a technological statement.

For me the GTS is more about a marketing exercise than to build the ultimate 3/4 series. It does not bring innovation like the CSL... The weight saving compared to the regular M4 is laughable and the price, well I won't even talk about the price. The CSL was a bargain for the technology, the GTS is just a rip off. I understand owners love their GTS but it cannot hold a candle to a Porsche GT3 as a track car. It is also horrendous as a daily without a rear seat (which the CSL has).

To conclude, IMO the CSL was the best BMW could make with the 3 series, and ran the 911 close. Now the GTS and 911 are worlds apart and the gap will only get wider.

[raisingAnarchy]

"Staying true to the hallowed M3 breed, it was the last to be powered by a naturally-aspirated straight six, continuing the tradition of every M3 dating back not quite to the original E30 four-cylinder of 1985, but the E36 of 1992."

So the tradition of, uh, one other M3? I get what he's trying to convey here, but this feels a little sensational I guess.

[AndrewC1989]

Originally Posted by ixm3

....

Except that there is at least one in the US legally....

View post on imgur.com

Originally Posted by ixm3

https://mobile.twitter.com/XPELtech/status/646365698420277248/photo/1

I never said it was impossible, It's just not easy/cheap or convenient and requires the car to be modified.

Like i said before:

"A vehicle permanently imported for show and display must comply with all U.S. emission requirements as well, and in general must be imported through an EPA-authorized ICI for modification and testing. EPA will not allow the vehicle to be released to its owner until ICI work is complete."

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-impo...importing-car#

[BarryB]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

The CSL was the 1st BMW to introduce the CFRP roof but also the 1 piece CFRP bumper. the engineers were told to make the car as lightweight as possible so they shaved 110 kilos in total (50 in the cabin). I don't believe the GTS got the same extreme weight saving diet as the CSL. With the carbon fiber technology BMW currently has, it would have been possible for them to reduce the weight more in the GTS but BMW was more interested in making money than a technological statement.

For me the GTS is more about a marketing exercise than to build the ultimate 3/4 series. It does not bring innovation like the CSL... The weight saving compared to the regular M4 is laughable and the price, well I won't even talk about the price. The CSL was a bargain for the technology, the GTS is just a rip off. I understand owners love their GTS but it cannot hold a candle to a Porsche GT3 as a track car. It is also horrendous as a daily without a rear seat (which the CSL has).

To conclude, IMO the CSL was the best BMW could make with the 3 series, and ran the 911 close. Now the GTS and 911 are worlds apart and the gap will only get wider.

Sorry, I heard and believe gts was designed to"hang" with gt3's on the track and it DOES (and this is from personal experiences and does for less $ when comparably equipped too.)One may be better here and there but they ARE in the same ball park and aren't we lucky to have choices in this segment. Some like Coke and some like Pepsi and we can argue all yr why one tastes better than the other as we seem to do here with the gt3's and gts. Imo BMW has finally built a match for the gt3's even if it is all for making $ which will keep them around to make even better cars in the future. Just one man's opinion but flame suit on.....

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by BarryB

Sorry, I heard and believe gts was designed to"hang" with gt3's on the track and it DOES (and this is from personal experiences and does for less $ when comparably equipped too.)One may be better here and there but they ARE in the same ball park and aren't we lucky to have choices in this segment. Some like Coke and some like Pepsi and we can argue all yr why one tastes better than the other as we seem to do here with the gt3's and gts. Imo BMW has finally built a match for the gt3's even if it is all for making $ which will keep them around to make even better cars in the future. Just one man's opinion but flame suit on.....

maybe it was close to the previous GT3, not so to the new one, which is faster than the old RS. and it is available with a manual...

[VCP]

Whoever has had the chance to spend a week with the engineers that thought out and designed the GTS would be believers as you are

All focus, all passion

Originally Posted by BarryB

Sorry, I heard and believe gts was designed to"hang" with gt3's on the track and it DOES (and this is from personal experiences and does for less $ when comparably equipped too.)One may be better here and there but they ARE in the same ball park and aren't we lucky to have choices in this segment. Some like Coke and some like Pepsi and we can argue all yr why one tastes better than the other as we seem to do here with the gt3's and gts. Imo BMW has finally built a match for the gt3's even if it is all for making $ which will keep them around to make even better cars in the future. Just one man's opinion but flame suit on.....

[VCP]

I think your account has been hacked

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

maybe it was close to the previous GT3, not so to the new one, which is faster than the old RS. and it is available with a manual...

[BarryB]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

maybe it was close to the previous GT3, not so to the new one, which is faster than the old RS. and it is available with a manual...

2016:2016

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by VCP

Whoever has had the chance to spend a week with the engineers that thought out and designed the GTS would be believers as you are

All focus, all passion

Maybe the engineers have passion but it's marketing making the decisions. Otherwise we'd have a proper sports or a supercar not a sedan based performance car.

By the way, the current M boss is an Audi bred guy. One can argue that the great M (for motorsport) guys are gone. No more Paul Rosche. no more engineering at the forefront of motorsport...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Maybe the engineers have passion but it's marketing making the decisions. Otherwise we'd have a proper sports or a supercar not a sedan based performance car.

By the way, the current M boss is an Audi bred guy. One can argue that the great M (for motorsport) guys are gone. No more Paul Rosche. no more engineering at the forefront of motorsport...

Which explains why the one truly good M car doesn't even have an S series M Motor.