Motoring magazine M4 GTS vs E46 M3 CSL

[VCP]

Yes we all die. Some of the old M guys have past and they are replaced by new blood. Might like it, might not, but it is what it is. Rotary telephones are gone as well. As for the real issue here, I believe you are correct that marketing runs the world now.

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Maybe the engineers have passion but it's marketing making the decisions. Otherwise we'd have a proper sports or a supercar not a sedan based performance car.

By the way, the current M boss is an Audi bred guy. One can argue that the great M (for motorsport) guys are gone. No more Paul Rosche. no more engineering at the forefront of motorsport...

[marcva]

Originally Posted by andrewc89

It would still require modification and testing to do that

"A vehicle permanently imported for show and display must comply with all U.S. emission requirements as well, and in general must be imported through an EPA-authorized ICI for modification and testing. EPA will not allow the vehicle to be released to its owner until ICI work is complete."


https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-impo.../importing-car

Yeah, there would be a few touring owners here if it were that easy.

[BarryB]

Originally Posted by VCP

Yes we all die. Some of the old M guys have past and they are replaced by new blood. Might like it, might not, but it is what it is. Rotary telephones are gone as well. As for the real issue here, I believe you are correct that marketing runs the world now.

Yes, and money makes he works go around. Today's reality. Someone once called this evolution.....

[stevehifi]

comparing the GTS to the CSL is equivalent to a comparison of a comfortable lazy boy chair to getting a massage by a supermodel in a string bikini.

CSL all the way... just the sound of the car is intoxicating.

[schnell325]

Well, less than two years from now the CSL will be legal to import in to Canada 🤔🤔🤔

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Well 85% of the CSL cars was never that light. Its same with the Porsche GT4 and plenty of cars. Like BMW and Porsche market the cars like that and sure a few was light. Like all Porsche cars sport auto get their hands on from Porsche Is the light ones. Like GT4, no cage, ceramic brakes, small 54l tank wich no one accually order..and most GT4 cars get the cage and car Is not that light as Porsche tell. Same with CSL only ca. 15% of all CSL was ca 110kg lighter.

Also, I remember very well all people crap on CSL as It only had 16hp extra vs normal M3, and slightly more Nm. Also 85% CSL was deliverd with klima, Parkcontroll, stereo etc, people was not as hardcore as BMW did think. At that time you could say If you want klima AC or not!

Hence M4 GTS you could not chose, BMW know from past all want that klima etc.. Now GTS Is big up In power vs M4...still people crap on. Funny, whatever M do they cant make some happy right:-)

Now you take out pork(CSL) no need to big up power right. Or big up power (GTS) no need to take out all to much pork? Also GTS was Free option cage, If some like to order GTS light opt for no cage right? But all ad In cage Free cost, Hence to have the lightest GTS was not that Importent in the end for us customers then?! Cage Is ca.25kg and my ad on software, head up etc ad on 10kg. (35kg) And them carbon rims, well there you got a pretty light M4 GTS that No customer did want to order! (Ca. 42kg lighter than all other GTS, no one did care to have that car.)

All cars got the cage!(clubsport cage, fire x, 6point, all that ad up pork, only cage was ap. 25kg.. Its pork! So It seems this lightweight Issu Is accually more Importent to them that Not own a GTS I guess?

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

I'm not sure what you mean here. the CSL shaved 110kg from the regular M3. The GTS has nowhere near the same weight savings... BMW did not go as far in shredding weight from the GTS as it did with the CSL. The CSL used honeycomb panels and went much further into exotic technology for weight savings than the GTS...

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Haha, even funny, you do not know what you talk about!

Originally Posted by stevehifi

comparing the GTS to the CSL is equivalent to a comparison of a comfortable lazy boy chair to getting a massage by a supermodel in a string bikini.

CSL all the way... just the sound of the car is intoxicating.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Sport auto tested CSL was If I recal correct 1385kg full fuel. It was one of them light CSL(15% of all made CSL was this light, no aircon, no PDC, no stereo etc)

The rest of them CSL was more or less like my car. My CSL was 1450kg full fuel. (No driver In cars) It had aircon, PDC, stereo etc..

Sport auto Porsche GT4 was 1381kg full fuel. My GT4 was 1430kg full fuel( no driver In cars)

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Well said sir!
I agree, I also have owned and track BMW M cars since 1990. Drove the M3 SPORT EVO on Nurburgring 1993 and had my CSL parked down at Nurburgring all M5.s etc even them bad as 3.8l E34 M5 with the Nurburgring chassie, M rodster and M3 E36 or what ever. No car, no car car touch the M4 GTS.

I am accually truly amazed how people know so little about GTS. At Times I say to my selve, I am I the only one that driver all these M cars on track hard year in an year out, Hence I know GTS I way better! Now I am glad to hear I am not alone.

What Is very chocking Is smart people like Chris Harris and many other have no clue that aero must set correct to make the GTS drive well.

Like Wtf, BMW M got that whole part at print In the track Book, and they say splitter must be out fully to get the car to drive propper.(they use other words, but thats what they say) and that rear wing as minimum must set nr. 2 or 3 then to match front splitter and very Importent to go nr. 3 rear If wet.

Then I am amazed how people on this forum really question this, like many on here that never even driven the GTS tell us It do not matter!

Like M tell us In the trackbook, If on track pull splitter out, as they developed the car In 24months It could matter what they say...or what do you say canAutM3 ?..☺️
Why do M tell us via track Book to take all splitter out If on track, why do they tell us to set big rear angle rear wing nr. 3 If wet? If this things did not transform the car on track, If If It did not matter It would not be on print In the trackbook that come with car


If only Chris and Harris had read the track Book instruction that come whit car they would maybee then understand these things matter, and set It right and they would had a very different experience for sure. But now they did all wrong and its now Imopssible to change many people and how the see the car as Chris and Clarksson fanbase are so big☺️ (And they did wrong, very wrong)
M would not print this Importent aero Info In trackbook If It did not matter.

Still its strange that most people have a way to see this car and never even driven It them selfe, they drive It vis Chris and Claesson and thats so wrong. (As they totaly did mess up driving no aero mode on a wet track.

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Just curious if any of the critics of the GTS on this forum ever drove one (I have my doubts). I have owned M3s for the last 13 years as daily drivers and the GTS is an amazingly better car than any of them. Incredibly connected with the road and responsive... race car vs road car.
I have never owned a CSL (I wish I had) but I am sure it was an incredible machine as well.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by schnell325

Well, less than two years from now the CSL will be legal to import in to Canada 🤔🤔🤔

It's good to have friends in the great north

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Like M tell us In the trackbook, If on track pull splitter out, as they developed the car In 24months It could matter what they say...or what do you say canAutM3 ?..☺️
Why do M tell us via track Book to take all splitter out If on track, why do they tell us to set big rear angle rear wing nr. 3 If wet? If this things did not transform the car on track, If If It did not matter It would not be on print In the trackbook that come with car

You're really looking for it, aren't you ?

I'll just repeat what I've been saying over and over again:

Maybe BMW recommends to put it in max aero setting for track use because it allows to exploit the full performance potential of the GTS? Will 0.7% to 3% of additional grip between 60 and 125mph respectively improve the GTS' performance? Most definitely, it is part of the total package. Will it transform the GTS from a lousy handler to great one? Most definitely not. And if you believe it does, you are simply delusional .

[Captain Unknown GT4]

You say maybe BMW M say to set It to track so people can...

Well accually they say car can drive like It is, but on track they recomend to bring aero in to play as It matters. Hehe, It accually transform the car, very much If you do the full tracksetting. That Is full aero and low tracksetting. That thing totaly transform the GTS and now Its racecar feel and fast laptimes on themGP tracks, Hence auto bild, sport auto and all other who know how to read BMW M trackbook will now have a car that drive well on track. The rest, like Clarksson and Chris Harris etc did not get to feel the real GTS! Cant you really understand this?!

-Have you ever driven a GTS in any setting?
-Have you ever read the special track Instruction Book that M give you with the car?
You should just take a few steeps back now my friend and just realx, I might know a thing or 2 on this subjuct and you dont.

First, I got the trackbook, and BMW M tell me In that specially developed Book for trackdriving....that on street use zero downforce mode, well I use full Max aero on street aswell. wow now car tramlining all over the place, instant pick up all angle/camber on that uneven street, I do not care. But others might prefer streetmode on street as car Is not this agressive then (camber/toe/aero) and streetset It do Not tramlining all over the street.(It do in full track mode)

Now on track, GP layout, its rock solid and no tramlining when in trackmode as tracks are often more even than streets. Now car Is physical and like racecar, no understeer, big gripp and No roll and pitch. Instant turn In. Agressive toe and camber is now on car in this low down tracksett car. Also compression rebound make car planted and the car now make use of al 4 cup tires.

Well If you have street setting high up in air and street compression and rebound on them GP tracks....well you will not get racecar feel, car will understeer, car will roll and pitch, It will have close to zero aero effect...Hence It will not turn In sharp and direct, tires will faster overheat as car is roll/pitch, and when a porky car like GTS move around alot on its tires the cup tire will feel It.

What Is It you do not understand 😳😂, like cant you understand Clarksson and Chris, I do...as I know how different this car Is in full street mode vs full track mode. Hence I Instant understod them guys was all wrong setting!! I did not need video or picture to know this. I could just understand It. Then also video/picture all over show that street set GTS.

And due to that, and what BMW M tell me, well I would never ever drive any GP track layout In zero aero mode street set chassie...Hence That is not the GTS ON TRACK!
Please just understand You have only read about the damn car in some magazines...why dont you read the trackbook and test the damn car. Then we speek ..



Now I driven all different mode on this car-I accually could know things you dont know. I accually drive zero aero mode In rain-car Is a handfull then, then I drive full Max aero In rain.. Big difference,very grippy front and rear now. It add up you know-why my understanding for this I greater than yours. I totaly know how wrong Clarksson and Chris did, as I try out car-and I know what BMW M trackbook say. You have lost It here pal, but Its hard to back down so you better stick to It right

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You're really looking for it, aren't you ?

I'll just repeat what I've been saying over and over again:

Maybe BMW recommends to put it in max aero setting for track use because it allows to exploit the full performance potential of the GTS? Will 0.7% to 3% of additional grip between 60 and 125mph respectively improve the GTS' performance? Most definitely, it is part of the total package. Will it transform the GTS from a lousy handler to great one? Most definitely not. And if you believe it does, you are simply delusional .

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by Brake_Late

"Scalpel like" ? I have not that impression of it
Anyone looking for a GTS hit me up

LOL. There are 2 close by me for sale still. At 700 only made, I'm surprised but you can still buy one for about $150K (marked up).

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

LOL. There are 2 close by me for sale still. At 700 only made, I'm surprised but you can still buy one for about $150K (marked up).

Oh ! )
I'm talking less than that number by 20k and zero markup. Grey or White - got both

[CalCarNut]

Oh. Nice. The 2 I've seen are the frozen grey..

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

You say maybe BMW M say to set It to track so people can...

Well accually they say car can drive like It is, but on track they recomend to bring aero in to play as It matters. Hehe, It accually transform the car, very much If you do the full tracksetting. That Is full aero and low tracksetting. That thing totaly transform the GTS and now Its racecar feel and fast laptimes on themGP tracks, Hence auto bild, sport auto and all other who know how to read BMW M trackbook will now have a car that drive well on track. The rest, like Clarksson and Chris Harris etc did not get to feel the real GTS! Cant you really understand this?!

-Have you ever driven a GTS in any setting?
-Have you ever read the special track Instruction Book that M give you with the car?
You should just take a few steeps back now my friend and just realx, I might know a thing or 2 on this subjuct and you dont.

First, I got the trackbook, and BMW M tell me In that specially developed Book for trackdriving....that on street use zero downforce mode, well I use full Max aero on street aswell. wow now car tramlining all over the place, instant pick up all angle/camber on that uneven street, I do not care. But others might prefer streetmode on street as car Is not this agressive then (camber/toe/aero) and streetset It do Not tramlining all over the street.(It do in full track mode)

Now on track, GP layout, its rock solid and no tramlining when in trackmode as tracks are often more even than streets. Now car Is physical and like racecar, no understeer, big gripp and No roll and pitch. Instant turn In. Agressive toe and camber is now on car in this low down tracksett car. Also compression rebound make car planted and the car now make use of al 4 cup tires.

Well If you have street setting high up in air and street compression and rebound on them GP tracks....well you will not get racecar feel, car will understeer, car will roll and pitch, It will have close to zero aero effect...Hence It will not turn In sharp and direct, tires will faster overheat as car is roll/pitch, and when a porky car like GTS move around alot on its tires the cup tire will feel It.

What Is It you do not understand ����, like cant you understand Clarksson and Chris, I do...as I know how different this car Is in full street mode vs full track mode. Hence I Instant understod them guys was all wrong setting!! I did not need video or picture to know this. I could just understand It. Then also video/picture all over show that street set GTS.

And due to that, and what BMW M tell me, well I would never ever drive any GP track layout In zero aero mode street set chassie...Hence That is not the GTS ON TRACK!
Please just understand You have only read about the damn car in some magazines...why dont you read the trackbook and test the damn car. Then we speek ..



Now I driven all different mode on this car-I accually could know things you dont know. I accually drive zero aero mode In rain-car Is a handfull then, then I drive full Max aero In rain.. Big difference,very grippy front and rear now. It add up you know-why my understanding for this I greater than yours. I totaly know how wrong Clarksson and Chris did, as I try out car-and I know what BMW M trackbook say. You have lost It here pal, but Its hard to back down so you better stick to It right

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

You say maybe BMW M say to set It to track so people can...

Well accually they say car can drive like It is, but on track they recomend to bring aero in to play as It matters. Hehe, It accually transform the car, very much If you do the full tracksetting. That Is full aero and low tracksetting. That thing totaly transform the GTS and now Its racecar feel and fast laptimes on themGP tracks, Hence auto bild, sport auto and all other who know how to read BMW M trackbook will now have a car that drive well on track. The rest, like Clarksson and Chris Harris etc did not get to feel the real GTS! Cant you really understand this?!

-Have you ever driven a GTS in any setting?
-Have you ever read the special track Instruction Book that M give you with the car?
You should just take a few steeps back now my friend and just realx, I might know a thing or 2 on this subjuct and you dont.

First, I got the trackbook, and BMW M tell me In that specially developed Book for trackdriving....that on street use zero downforce mode, well I use full Max aero on street aswell. wow now car tramlining all over the place, instant pick up all angle/camber on that uneven street, I do not care. But others might prefer streetmode on street as car Is not this agressive then (camber/toe/aero) and streetset It do Not tramlining all over the street.(It do in full track mode)

Now on track, GP layout, its rock solid and no tramlining when in trackmode as tracks are often more even than streets. Now car Is physical and like racecar, no understeer, big gripp and No roll and pitch. Instant turn In. Agressive toe and camber is now on car in this low down tracksett car. Also compression rebound make car planted and the car now make use of al 4 cup tires.

Well If you have street setting high up in air and street compression and rebound on them GP tracks....well you will not get racecar feel, car will understeer, car will roll and pitch, It will have close to zero aero effect...Hence It will not turn In sharp and direct, tires will faster overheat as car is roll/pitch, and when a porky car like GTS move around alot on its tires the cup tire will feel It.

What Is It you do not understand 😳😂, like cant you understand Clarksson and Chris, I do...as I know how different this car Is in full street mode vs full track mode. Hence I Instant understod them guys was all wrong setting!! I did not need video or picture to know this. I could just understand It. Then also video/picture all over show that street set GTS.

And due to that, and what BMW M tell me, well I would never ever drive any GP track layout In zero aero mode street set chassie...Hence That is not the GTS ON TRACK!
Please just understand You have only read about the damn car in some magazines...why dont you read the trackbook and test the damn car. Then we speek ..



Now I driven all different mode on this car-I accually could know things you dont know. I accually drive zero aero mode In rain-car Is a handfull then, then I drive full Max aero In rain.. Big difference,very grippy front and rear now. It add up you know-why my understanding for this I greater than yours. I totaly know how wrong Clarksson and Chris did, as I try out car-and I know what BMW M trackbook say. You have lost It here pal, but Its hard to back down so you better stick to It right

The point is you need to fiddle around with the GTS and waste track time because the car is immobilised to extract the potential of the car and in full aero mod, the car is useless to drive on regular roads. The 911 GT3 and GT3 RS don't need these fiddly adjustments and they are great out of the box...


With the advance in technology, magnetic dampers, active aero and the likes, it would not have been difficult for BMW to make a proper road/track car with active rear and front wings and magnetic dampers (or at least dampers you can change settings from the inside of the car instead of from the outside). If you look at BMW's own GT4 racer, you can see that the rear wing of the GTS is a joke compared to the GT4's. It could have had the GT4 wing if BMW was going for a passive wing. So in my opinion, the GTS is underdeveloped and is a marketing exercise to make money for BMW and nothing else...

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

Oh. Nice. The 2 I've seen are the frozen grey..

Here's one of them:

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

The point is you need to fiddle around with the GTS and waste track time because the car is immobilised to extract the potential of the car and in full aero mod, the car is useless to drive on regular roads. The 911 GT3 and GT3 RS don't need these fiddly adjustments and they are great out of the box...


With the advance in technology, magnetic dampers, active aero and the likes, it would not have been difficult for BMW to make a proper road/track car with active rear and front wings and magnetic dampers (or at least dampers you can change settings from the inside of the car instead of from the outside). If you look at BMW's own GT4 racer, you can see that the rear wing of the GTS is a joke compared to the GT4's. It could have had the GT4 wing if BMW was going for a passive wing. So in my opinion, the GTS is underdeveloped and is a marketing exercise to make money for BMW and nothing else...

Front and rear aero needs to be balanced. Maybe the source of limitation on the GTS actually comes from what they could do with the front splitter while keeping it street legal. The size of the rear wing being a consequence of how much increased downforce they could get up front. The GT4 being a non-street legal car has a substantial front splitter and canards which allows for a bigger rear wing. Just sayin'...

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by mrgicm

I have the regular M4 and the regular M3 E46, sure the M4 is faster, more powerful but to me the E46 is just a better car. If you come to the Nurburgring today in 2017 you would see a ton of E46 on the track as it is just a sheere pleasure to drive and for such a 'slow' car in todays perspective it sure puts great compeating times on the Tracks all over the world.

You see a sheer amount of them there because of the price compared to an m4 or an e9x m3. I'm not hating but it's the truth, this is from someone who owns both. I rather take the e46 out knowing it's easier and cheaper to fix.

[Brake_Late]

Old thread just saying hi

ceez

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

The point is you need to fiddle around with the GTS and waste track time because the car is immobilised to extract the potential of the car and in full aero mod, the car is useless to drive on regular roads. The 911 GT3 and GT3 RS don't need these fiddly adjustments and they are great out of the box...


With the advance in technology, magnetic dampers, active aero and the likes, it would not have been difficult for BMW to make a proper road/track car with active rear and front wings and magnetic dampers (or at least dampers you can change settings from the inside of the car instead of from the outside). If you look at BMW's own GT4 racer, you can see that the rear wing of the GTS is a joke compared to the GT4's. It could have had the GT4 wing if BMW was going for a passive wing. So in my opinion, the GTS is underdeveloped and is a marketing exercise to make money for BMW and nothing else...

That's because the 911 is a sports car to begin with. A real, actual sports car. No one ever confused a 4 series, from which the GTS is derived, with a sports car...which is why it it overpriced and under-delivers.

That's just the way it is. Even for those who overpaid in the hope that artificially created "limited availability" makes them valuable someday.