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      12-11-2013, 09:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by conradb View Post
I came, I saw, I came again.

I really like the M3 more, but with 176lbs in savings with the coupe, it might be a real challenging choice. Hmmm...

A little over 3100lbs on the M4. Christ.
You are misreading - slow down. M4 coupe is 176 lbs lighter than the "old" E92 M3 Coupe, not the F82. F82 is 50 lbs lighter than F80 per the specs. Coupe has the advantage of CFRP trunk lid, but other than the door count not much difference.
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      12-11-2013, 09:19 PM   #46
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I LOL to those getting caught up in the factory hp/tq claims.

It's convenient if you want to poo-poo this car to justify what you currently drive.

But from the N54 to the N55 and even to the N20, it should be common knowledge to know that BMWs FI claims fall much closer to wheel hp.

I find it a pleasant surprise. So wait for the dynos before you shit all over the specs.
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      12-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowx360 View Post
Ok, so I really don't mean to be a downer here, but when MotorTrend tested the 2012 C63 AMG, they got a 0-60 of 3.7, which smoked the last M3:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...pe_first_test/

A 3.9 is impressive and I'm not an HP whore or else I'd be driving a GT500, but still...425-431 HP is a bit of a letdown. The next gen C63 AMG is coming and rumors to be above 450 horsepower. The M4 was more impressive when we heard about the weight cuts and hopes were running high for a good sprint time, but with barely any more HP than the outgoing M3, I'm not sure if it's really worth the M badge. Don't get me wrong, the M3/4 is a million times more beautiful in my eyes and I'd take it over anything else under $100k any day, but still, I was expecting a bit more performance for that M badge. Especially since 335i's with ECU tunes and $1500 of upgrades are hitting close to 400 HP.

Not to mention the C7 Corvette is hitting close to a 3.6s and looks just as beautiful...
Agreed. However, it's a turbo motor now and most likely extremely underrated. Look at the M5 Dyno numbers.
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      12-11-2013, 09:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
I LOL to those getting caught up in the factory hp/tq claims.

It's convenient if you want to poo-poo this car to justify what you currently drive.

But from the N54 to the N55 and even to the N20, it should be common knowledge to know that BMWs FI claims fall much closer to wheel hp.

I find it a pleasant surprise. So wait for the dynos before you shit all over the specs.
Exactly.
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      12-11-2013, 09:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by conradb View Post
I really like the M3 more, but with 176lbs in savings with the coupe, it might bea real challenging choice. Hmmm...

A little over 3100lbs on the M4. Christ.
The M4 is 50lbs lighter than the M3. Not 176. Cheers
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      12-11-2013, 09:32 PM   #50
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And then we have this crap of "Well my N54 makes just as much power with a tune and bolt ons".

Seriously?

We are talking about an out of the box car with a full warranty that will likely put down 400-430whp. Great, an N54 with downpipes, tune, FMIC, TBE MIGHT crack 400whp. But are we assuming the aftermarket is just going to ignore this S55 which sounds like an N54 dialed up to 11?

I foresee this car being comically easy to crack 500whp. Should only take a tune and TBE, about $1500-1800. Sounds good to me.
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      12-11-2013, 09:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
By the way, good luck to the aftermarket tuning community.

At 18psi from the factory and the new Bosch ECU's, it will be very difficult to crack. Probably even harder than the new M5/6 which has proved very difficult. Even the best tunes are seeing limp modes. Even throwing on catless downpipes will be met with "torque overlimit" which will cause limp during sustained WOT runs.

In straight line racing, the e9X M3's will have the upper hand for a long time. Let's see how the new M3/4 does at the track.
Can you please explain how the E9X M3 has the upper hand in a straight line given that the F8X M3 is 176lbs lighter, has 111lb ft of torque more, and 11hp more?
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      12-11-2013, 09:39 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki View Post
Can you please explain how the E9X M3 has the upper hand in a straight line given that the F8X M3 is 176lbs lighter, has 111lb ft of torque more, and 11hp more?
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      12-11-2013, 09:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki View Post
Can you please explain how the E9X M3 has the upper hand in a straight line given that the F8X M3 is 176lbs lighter, has 111lb ft of torque more, and 11hp more?
Mods.

Firstly, as you know, HP wins races. This is why my S/C M3 with only 370 lb ft of torque to the wheels stomps cars making twice as much torque on airstrip events.

And because the S65 can be easily modded to extract HP. A tune + catless exhaust can provide 30-40 HP increase on the S65 motor. Supercharged S65's are making 600+HP with no issues.

It will be extremely hard to extract any additional HP from the new M3/4 without throwing some kind of code. Long gone are the days of buying a $5 resistor from Radio Shack and getting 50 HP from the N54 motor. Just look at the new turbo M5's and M6's with the Bosch ECU's. How long have these cars been out? My friends who bought the first ones and tried the tunes + downpipes are having real problems. BMW is a lot smarter than any of the tuners, and they are putting forth significant measures to prevent the aftermarket world from having their fun.
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      12-11-2013, 09:45 PM   #54
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Same 3.0 liter block on this car is going to be stressed from the factory. Aftermarket tuning is going to be somewhat limited...not like what the N54 guys are/were experiencing.

Until Chris Harris gets behind the wheel I'm going to refrain putting down a deposit. A lot of marketing Kool Aid here, let's not forget the competition is bringing heavy artillery to this next generation gunfight and BMW is giving us a tweaked N55. And charging us for it.
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      12-11-2013, 09:45 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
By the way, good luck to the aftermarket tuning community.

At 18psi from the factory and the new Bosch ECU's, it will be very difficult to crack. Probably even harder than the new M5/6 which has proved very difficult. Even the best tunes are seeing limp modes. Even throwing on catless downpipes will be met with "torque overlimit" which will cause limp during sustained WOT runs.

In straight line racing, the e9X M3's will have the upper hand for a long time. Let's see how the new M3/4 does at the track.
Can you please explain how the E9X M3 has the upper hand in a straight line given that the F8X M3 is 176lbs lighter, has 111lb ft of torque more, and 11hp more?
I think what he was referring to was how difficult it will be for tuners to crack the new Bosch ECU. In other words the e90 series will have the upper hand with availability of tunes.
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      12-11-2013, 09:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
And then we have this crap of "Well my N54 makes just as much power with a tune and bolt ons".

Seriously?

We are talking about an out of the box car with a full warranty that will likely put down 400-430whp. Great, an N54 with downpipes, tune, FMIC, TBE MIGHT crack 400whp. But are we assuming the aftermarket is just going to ignore this S55 which sounds like an N54 dialed up to 11?

I foresee this car being comically easy to crack 500whp. Should only take a tune and TBE, about $1500-1800. Sounds good to me.
I agree with you on the part of having a complete package that is covered under warranty making as much power as a 335 with bolt-ons.

However, I think 400-430rwhp for the stock M3 is exaggerating it a bit. I know BMW has been underrating it's engines, but I think 430rwhp is way off. I'd say 380-390rwhp is more likely where it's going to be.

And regarding modding the M3 I think it will cost much more than $1500-$1800 for a tune and TBE. Keep in mind there's a premium vendors will charge just for the M badge even though same parts for the 135 or 335 will cost half as much.
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      12-11-2013, 09:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Mods.

Firstly, as you know, HP wins races. This is why my S/C M3 with only 370 lb ft of torque to the wheels stomps cars making twice as much torque on airstrip events.

And because the S65 can be easily modded to extract HP. A tune + catless exhaust can provide 30-40 HP increase on the S65 motor. Supercharged S65's are making 600+HP with no issues.

It will be extremely hard to extract any additional HP from the new M3/4 without throwing some kind of code. Long gone are the days of buying a $5 resistor from Radio Shack and getting 50 HP from the N54 motor. Just look at the new turbo M5's and M6's with the Bosch ECU's. How long have these cars been out? My friends who bought the first ones and tried the tunes + downpipes are having real problems. BMW is a lot smarter than any of the tuners, and they are putting forth significant measures to prevent the aftermarket world from having their fun.
Are you seriously hanging the banner on "mods" when comparing an factory FI engine to an NA engine?
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      12-11-2013, 09:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
And then I foresee this car being comically easy to crack 500whp. Should only take a tune and TBE, about $1500-1800. Sounds good to me.
How? Do you understand what BMW has done to prevent aftermarket tuning on the M3/4?
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      12-11-2013, 09:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
How? Do you understand what BMW has done to prevent aftermarket tuning on the M3/4?
LOL.

You think cracking the N54 wasn't a challenge at first?

Every new DME launched, they say the same thing. It's going to be harder than ever, this one is uncrackable...until it's cracked.
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      12-11-2013, 09:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki View Post
I agree with you on the part of having a complete package that is covered under warranty making as much power as a 335 with bolt-ons.

However, I think 400-430rwhp for the stock M3 is exaggerating it a bit. I know BMW has been underrating it's engines, but I think 430rwhp is way off. I'd say 380-390rwhp is more likely where it's going to be.

And regarding modding the M3 I think it will cost much more than $1500-$1800 for a tune and TBE. Keep in mind there's a premium vendors will charge just for the M badge even though same parts for the 135 or 335 will cost half as much.
Only time will tell.

But I hold to my 400-430whp estimate.

I watched my N20 put down crank+ numbers, I see it on my friends N54, I frankly am used to seeing it on any modern FI BMW engine.

Why would the S55 suddenly be different?

As for tuning cost...BMS seems to charge the same $350-500 whether it is an M product or not. Sure, not the only game in town, but even Cobb is usually $600-900. Exhausts, well those will run from moderate to crazy like is always the case. You can be the guy to spend $5k on a titanium exhaust or be the guy who gets it done for $1000.
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      12-11-2013, 09:56 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
LOL.

You think cracking the N54 wasn't a challenge at first?

Every new DME launched, they say the same thing. It's going to be harder than ever, this one is uncrackable...until it's cracked.
They said that about the M5/M6. People are still getting CELs and limps after a couple years with the tunes/downpipes. Do you know that BMW changed the ECUs to prevent aftermarket tuning? And do you think BMW is going to make tuning this M3/4 easier or harder than the M5/6's which are still not figured out?? Ain't gonna happen for looooooonnnnnnggggggggg time.

And you are wrong, the n54 was simple to crack. Boost could be changed from the factory profile of 8psi tapering to 6psi, to 18psi tapering to 12psi with a simple $5 resistor...and air/fuel and knock would compensate. It took a few hours to figure out. I know because I had one of the first 335's in North America back in 2006 and tossed a resister on it the first day I owned it and then had my buddy Shiv (Vishnu) put on the Xede (predecessor to the Proceed) a couple days later.
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      12-11-2013, 09:57 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperboost View Post
The M4 is 50lbs lighter than the M3. Not 176. Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
23 per the specs on first page.
M4 is 80kg (176 pounds) lighter than E92 M3 coupe, when comparably equipped
M4 is 23kg (50 pounds) lighter than F80 M3 sedan
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      12-11-2013, 09:59 PM   #63
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Looks like Terry has one of the first build spots so it shouldn't be too long before he cracks the DME and provides another great tuning solution for the M3/M4.
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      12-11-2013, 10:01 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
They said that about the M5/M6. People are still getting CELs and limps after a couple years with the tunes/downpipes. Do you know that BMW changed the ECUs to prevent aftermarket tuning? And do you think BMW is going to make tuning this M3/4 easier or harder than the M5/6's which are still not figured out?? Ain't gonna happen for looooooonnnnnnggggggggg time.

And you are wrong, the n54 was simple to crack. Boost could be changed from the factory profile of 8psi tapering to 6psi, to 18psi tapering to 12psi with a simple $5 resistor...and air/fuel and knock would compensate. It took a few hours to figure out. I know because I had one of the first 335's in North America back in 2006 and tossed a resister on it the first day I owned it and then had my buddy Shiv (Vishnu) put on the Xede (predecessor to the Proceed) a couple days later.

I am glad that we are so good at time travel.

First it's pooping on a car no one has driven or tested.

Now it's dismissing the cars future tuning potential.

I am not claiming that tuning this car is going to be EASY or fast and speedy.

All I am saying is not just BMW, but in the tuning arena as a whole, it is always said how hard some next generation of ECU is going to be to crack. But it gets done.

Problems still with the M5/M6? Ok, does that mean it's always going to be this way?
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      12-11-2013, 10:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Mods.

Firstly, as you know, HP wins races. This is why my S/C M3 with only 370 lb ft of torque to the wheels stomps cars making twice as much torque on airstrip events.

And because the S65 can be easily modded to extract HP. A tune + catless exhaust can provide 30-40 HP increase on the S65 motor. Supercharged S65's are making 600+HP with no issues.

It will be extremely hard to extract any additional HP from the new M3/4 without throwing some kind of code. Long gone are the days of buying a $5 resistor from Radio Shack and getting 50 HP from the N54 motor. Just look at the new turbo M5's and M6's with the Bosch ECU's. How long have these cars been out? My friends who bought the first ones and tried the tunes + downpipes are having real problems. BMW is a lot smarter than any of the tuners, and they are putting forth significant measures to prevent the aftermarket world from having their fun.
I was referring to both cars being stock, modding the cars is a different story. Like you said for the E9X M3 you need to add a supercharger system and a exhaust totaling to around $15,000 to make the kind of power you are referring to. And although I agree with you of how it's currently difficult to crack the new ECUs, but trust me it's only a matter of time till the tuners crack them. It was the same thing with the N54s, the initial MSD v80 ECU was easy to crack and like you said you were even able to tune it with resistors, then BMW came with MSD v81 which introduced the whole torque limiting and hidden codes crap, but still tuners found a way around it. Same with the N55 when it came out. What I'm trying to say is that BMW and other car manufacturers will always keep trying to make it difficult for tuners to hack into their ECU, but tuners will in return do their best to crack them to make a living. So putting that issue on a side I honestly see a lot of potential in terms of tuning for the new M3, even more potential than the current M3 just for the fact that later in the future it will be so easy and much more cost effective to do turbo upgrades or even simple bolt-ons.
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      12-11-2013, 10:06 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen View Post
LOL.

You think cracking the N54 wasn't a challenge at first?

Every new DME launched, they say the same thing. It's going to be harder than ever, this one is uncrackable...until it's cracked.
+1
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