GetBMWParts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3 / M4 Photos and Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-02-2014, 02:34 AM   #309
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
385
Rep
10,367
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
swamp believes that the "state of tune" and exhaust system alone is the key differences in sound.
Wow, I am sick and tired of this, I never said that, don't believe it and can barely believe you would write this. Get your head screwed on straight and READ, without READING INTO.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 04:09 AM   #310
lawjizams
M IS THE KING!
United_States
4
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: M3 E90 SSII
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: VA Beach, VA

iTrader: (0)

Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 06:51 AM   #311
Boss330
Brigadier General
Boss330's Avatar
Norway
712
Rep
4,800
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway, Scandinavia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
Ease up on the accusations and borderline insults, you are massively guilty here of misreading/misinterpreting my words and driveling them back out with a completely false interpretation of my very clear statements. Really, shape it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems that you think I believe the V8 warble comes from an uneven firing sequence per crank rotation/angle... And since it doesn't I'm wrong.
No, I understand exactly where it comes from. No need then and no need now for such a treatise. It's real simple - cross planes have consecutive firings in one bank of the V, flat planes does not. Both designs have an equal crank angle between combustion events. No need to write a book to explain this. And thus, as I said, it is more about those firings being routed to the same header and section of the exhaust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
In a flat plane crank V8 all 4 pistons on the same bank are in sync.
Absolutely not, I know you know this, but your language is entirely incorrect/sloppy here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
They are grouped 2 and 2 together with 180 degree of crank rotation separating TDC for the two groups.
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
There is NO way that the "state of tune" can eliminate the 2 cylinders firing out of sequence, neither can a exhaust system after the collectors on the headers.
I never said that at all, that is 100% misreading and reading into what I wrote. Again, I said that overall state of tune (perhaps loosely given by specific output), along with redline and along with exhaust are more important factors than crankshaft geometry while under load (actually driving). I also said that some exhaust routing trickery could basically eliminate the cross plane V8 warble and we agree on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It has to be done before the collectors, just as BMW does on the S63tu and Ford did on the GT40.
Yes, agree.

"Warble", a good/accurate term, is fundamentally a low frequency phenomena. I contend that at any significant use rpm, although some folks may be able to tell the difference between flat and cross plane V8s, the differences substantially diminish. Yes, the effect is still present as the same basic phenomena is happening, just sped up. But compared to idle it is undoubtedly diminished. How about tuned cross plane V8 Corvettes? Why do they not sound much like an M3 V8 (again cross plane). We've had this debate before but I claim that at high load and high rpm an M3 with nothing more than a cat back sounds closer to a V8 Ferrari than a V8 Corvette. The fundamental reason is the redline, exhaust system differences and state of tune (compression ratio, specific output, etc). Sound is fundamentally determined in spectral content, that is by the number of combustion events per second, higher rpms gives correspondingly higher frequencies simply NOT present at lower rpms. This is a major effect.

Lastly I also contend that turbo charging an engine gives it a huge change in sound and it also makes a bigger difference to overall sound than flat vs. cross plane (again while under load).
With your accusations towards me and misreading of my posts in the other thread, I thought you were man enough not only to dish it out but also to take criticism. It seems no... You have a habit of doing personal attacks whenever someone disagrees with you, and then claiming that you have never said what you HAVE said... You have repeatedly said that state of tune has more to do with sound than the crank layout.

If you can't hear the difference between a Ferrari V8 at 8000rpm and a E92 M3 at 8000rpm, then you must be one of the few...

Just as you write long essays on "your" subjects to explain things, so should I be allowed to when you clearly have shown a lack of elementary understanding of the two V8 concepts. Something so basic, that I know of NO other disputing it... Instead you attack me and my English (something you have also done to others on these boards that have English as their second language).

So, a S65 sounds similar to a Corvette until the 'Vettes redline and then the S65 changes into a flat plane crank V8 sound?

Sorry, but I have not yet heard a S65 with a exhaust sound remotely like a flat plane V8. Come to think of it, neither do a NASCAR V8 sound like a flat plane V8 either... And they do 8000+ rpm...

Like it or not, the cross plane sound is present even at redline, not as a burble that you easily hear at idle, but as that off beat exhaust sound (not that it sounds bad, just different from a flat plane exhaust). That character is not present in that GT40 nor in a flat plane V8, nor in a I4 engine. But at least you now acknowledge that you have to use 180 degree headers (as per Ford GT40 and S63Tu) to replicate the flat plane sound. Something I have said all along... But isn't "only" at idle the sound differs, it is all through the rev range:













And at what rpm does this straight piped F430 sound more like a cross plane V8 than two I4 engines?



And does this sound more like a Corvette or a Ferrari V8












Last edited by Boss330; 02-02-2014 at 10:43 AM.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 10:23 AM   #312
/// M sa
Major
/// M sa's Avatar
164
Rep
1,409
Posts

Drives: F80 MG
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Delmarva

iTrader: (0)

Great write up boss, love reading these.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 11:19 AM   #313
US///M3
Banned
76
Rep
1,280
Posts

Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by //M sa View Post
Great write up boss, love reading these.
+1

great compilation.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 11:30 AM   #314
Jockey
Super Pilot
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
573
Rep
3,071
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

iTrader: (1)

Man, I love the sound of WRC cars. The burble and pop of the anti-lag off throttle.

And there will always be a special love in my heart for the sound of Subaru's flat 4 on the WRC car. Sigh.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 01:09 PM   #315
Sedan_Clan
Olympic Lifting Junkie
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
1365
Rep
13,648
Posts

Drives: '17 Nardo Grey M4
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey
Man, I love the sound of WRC cars. The burble and pop of the anti-lag off throttle.

And there will always be a special love in my heart for the sound of Subaru's flat 4 on the WRC car. Sigh.
+2
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 05:33 PM   #316
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
385
Rep
10,367
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
You have repeatedly said that state of tune has more to do with sound than the crank layout.
Again, no, the combination of overall engine performance level ("state of tune", perhaps best quantified by specific output) along with details of the exhaust system and redline contribute more to overall sound than crank pin arrangement. Yes, I've said this over and over and believe it to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
With your accusations towards me and misreading of my posts in the other thread, I thought you were man enough not only to dish it out but also to take criticism. It seems no... You have a habit of doing personal attacks whenever someone disagrees with you, and then claiming that you have never said what you HAVE said...
I did not attack you about the "jerk" topic. You posts clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding of a technical and rigorous definition. I said that. It's tough to be wrong and lacking in the required tools of the trade to discuss certain topics, that is not an attack.

The difference here is that you, over and over, blatantly misrepresent my opinions and statements to further your opinion. I've pointed out those cases explicitly and keep telling you what I do believe.

Don't bother posting video after video for me, I don't listen to them. Listening to videos for capturing all of the subtlety of vehicle noise is a a bit silly. Given massive variation in the quality of recording equipment and playback equipment. Sure one can hear an exhaust warble, not doubt but overall it's a bit silly. Now that being said I have posted two videos in which I believe there is great similarity in the sound between a V8 M3 (with aftermarket/modded exhaust system) and a modern V8 Ferrari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
you clearly have shown a lack of elementary understanding of the two V8 concepts.
Wrong again. As soon as you can point out the error in my statement just below you might have a leg to stand on until then cork it, seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It's real simple - cross planes have consecutive firings in one bank of the V, flat planes does not. Both designs have an equal crank angle between combustion events.
Lastly on language. I did not attack RobinNL on language nor did I attach you. I sincerely took a open "multicultural approach" to the discussion with him seeking to see if we had the exact same understanding of the connotation and denotation of a word. He freaked out and got hypersensitive about his perfect English.

Now here with you, you misspoke, I know you know better and gave you that credit but you still want to bitch about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
In a flat plane crank V8 all 4 pistons on the same bank are in sync.
Again this is 100% incorrect. With such a serious error, it is worth pointing it out as I did, courteously below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Absolutely not, I know you know this, but your language is entirely incorrect/sloppy here.
Talk about manning up, my lord. Get with your own program.

Unfortunately, because sound can and often is so subjective, there will be no end to this discussion. Bruce was pretty well on track with his comments on our debate. I am going to leave it there.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |

Last edited by swamp2; 02-02-2014 at 05:41 PM.
Appreciate 0
      02-02-2014, 06:44 PM   #317
Boss330
Brigadier General
Boss330's Avatar
Norway
712
Rep
4,800
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway, Scandinavia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Lastly on language. I did not attack RobinNL on language nor did I attach you. I sincerely took a open "multicultural approach" to the discussion with him seeking to see if we had the exact same understanding of the connotation and denotation of a word. He freaked out and got hypersensitive about his perfect English.
Wow, it must be great to be the one that never does anything wrong. Just all the others that are hypersensitive... In fact it wasn't only RobinNL that reacted on that. And why the thinly veiled attacks on RobinNL with the "Perfect English" comment???

It's comments just like that, that are totally unnecessary. Maybe you don't see it yourselves. But that is just uncalled for. You could have argued about how he misunderstood you and just stopped at that. But instead you claim no wrongdoing (as ususal) and instead say that he was hypersensitive (even though others also commented on the tone of your post) about "his Perfect English"...

You are a very intelligent member of these boards and I have learned a LOT from you. But you should maybe ease off on the insults (veiled or open) and perhaps sometime see that it's not allways the others that are wrong or have written in a less than clear manner.
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2014, 11:27 AM   #318
Koldun
Banned
6
Rep
659
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealStig View Post
I see what you are saying.

I have been driving M cars for a long time, and I don't remember ever driving faster than 90 mph. You can't drive like that in public roads in the US. I honestly don't care how a car drives beyond 80 mph. I'm pretty sure with its 575 hp engine, M5 is going to pull hard past 60 mph.
Why are you even here? Just get yourself a granny car (Volvo or something), and get on with your boring, mundane life.
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2014, 06:58 PM   #319
lawjizams
M IS THE KING!
United_States
4
Rep
48
Posts

Drives: M3 E90 SSII
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: VA Beach, VA

iTrader: (0)

Appreciate 0
      02-03-2014, 08:30 PM   #320
Tonymiabmw
Colonel
Tonymiabmw's Avatar
317
Rep
2,528
Posts

Drives: YMB F80 CCBs
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: In Transit

iTrader: (1)

Can get much better with Exhaust sound like F80 to me
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2014, 07:58 PM   #321
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
385
Rep
10,367
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Wow, it must be great to be the one that never does anything wrong. Just all the others that are hypersensitive... In fact it wasn't only RobinNL that reacted on that. And why the thinly veiled attacks on RobinNL with the "Perfect English" comment???

It's comments just like that, that are totally unnecessary. Maybe you don't see it yourselves. But that is just uncalled for. You could have argued about how he misunderstood you and just stopped at that. But instead you claim no wrongdoing (as ususal) and instead say that he was hypersensitive (even though others also commented on the tone of your post) about "his Perfect English"...

You are a very intelligent member of these boards and I have learned a LOT from you. But you should maybe ease off on the insults (veiled or open) and perhaps sometime see that it's not allways the others that are wrong or have written in a less than clear manner.
I more than readily admit my errors when they occur and I've apologized when they are due. This just does not qualify and I NEVER attacked nor insulted you nor RobinNL. With him it was a misunderstanding and I firmly claim he was being hypersensitive. I have had no problems getting along wonderfully with folks from all over the world here on this forum. If you want to engage in a more civil way with me, don't massively misquote or misrepresent my opinions and statements, it's that simple from my perspective.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |

Last edited by swamp2; 02-05-2014 at 04:54 AM.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 bmw m3 horsepower, 2014 bmw m3 specs, 2014 bmw m4 horsepower, 2014 bmw m4 specs, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 engine, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 horsepower, 2014 m3 hp, 2014 m3 specs, 2014 m3 weight, 2014 m4 engine, 2014 m4 horsepower, 2014 m4 hp, 2014 m4 specs, 2014 m4 weight, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m3 specs, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 bmw m4 specs, 2015 m3, 2015 m3 engine, 2015 m3 specs, 2015 m4, 2015 m4 engine, 2015 m4 hp, 2015 m4 specs, 2015 m4 weight, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 s55, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f82 m4 s55, bmw f82 m4 video, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 forum, bmw m3 forums, bmw m3 s55, bmw m3 s55 engine, bmw m4, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 exhaust sound, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, bmw m4 horsepower, bmw m4 hp, bmw m4 redline, bmw m4 rev limit, bmw m4 rev limiter, bmw m4 rpm, bmw m4 rpm redline

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:05 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST