BMW M4 vs Audi RS5 Compared on Nurburgring GP track by Autozeitung (Update)

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Don't want to burst your bubble but these numbers for time to speed are suspiciously high.

Up to 140 km/hr they are completely consistent with a 440 hp car, with an 11-12% drivetrain loss, around 1615 kg with driver included, M-DCT and no rollout. Such a car is also able to pull off the standing 1 km in 22.0 seconds. However, the numbers above 140 km and including 12.9 seconds to 200 km/hr are simply way too good. A more reasonable time is about 13.6 seconds (that's my value WITH the DCT). Hate to sounds like the tin-foil hat crowd... but it would take about 470 hp and 440 ft lb of torque to achieve this kind of number. Sure a couple of tenths either way based on differences between simulation and test and perhaps even real errors with either but 0.7 seconds?

Could that have been delivered a ringer of sorts?

Interesting indeed. In this thread you predicted a 12.4~12.6 0-200km/h for a similar power to weight. What changed?

Let's also keep in mind that UAE247 achieved a 13.4 0-200km/h with his loaded (in terms of options) DCT M3. This on a road with sub optimal traction, with a baby seat and a fair bit of luggage in 27deg C weather. IMO, times below 13.4 should be achievable for a lighter M4 under better conditions; while 12.9 might be optimistic according to CarTest, 13.6 seems a bit pessimistic to me.

AutoZeitung also match UAE times between 100 and 140km/h but get faster after that. What is interesting is that AZ results are also faster than UAE247's below 100km/h. It will be good when we have more independent (and reliable) test results to compare.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Interesting indeed. In this thread you predicted a 12.4~12.6 0-200km/h for a similar power to weight. What changed?

Just about everything... Power, torque, weight, drag, gearing, rollout to name just a few. It appears my earlier prediction mentioned in that thread here was likely a better prediction.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Let's also keep in mind that UAE247 achieved a 13.4 0-200km/h with his loaded (in terms of options) DCT M3. This on a road with sub optimal traction, with a baby seat and a fair bit of luggage in 27deg C weather. IMO, times below 13.4 should be achievable for a lighter M4 under better conditions; while 12.9 might be optimistic according to CarTest, 13.6 seems a bit pessimistic to me.

Is there any exaggeration, unknowns or unbridled optimism in the claims above?

-What/who/how was "suboptimal traction" determined?
-What was exactly "a fair bit of luggage"?
-Who cares about a 5-10 lb baby seat?

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

AutoZeitung also match UAE times between 100 and 140km/h but get faster after that. What is interesting is that AZ results are also faster than UAE247's below 100km/h. It will be good when we have more independent (and reliable) test results to compare.

There is clearly some demand for a nice "database" similar to the one I put a quite a lot of work into (here). Such efforts are nice to display the range of results, possible outliers and of course, near and dear to one of my "mantras" demonstrates the testing too like simulation, but in a very different way, is quite uncertain.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Just about everything... Power, torque, weight, drag, gearing, rollout to name just a few. It appears my earlier prediction mentioned in that thread here was likely a better prediction.

It seems the power to weight of your earlier prediction is pretty bang on (3450lb+driver/450hp vs 1615kg/440hp; torque was actually lower and the power plateau not as broad). The biggest difference I see in your earlier prediction is aero drag. Roll out is definitely worth a few tenths. And I thought gearing does not make a difference (just nagging ).

Originally Posted by swamp2

Is there any exaggeration, unknowns or unbridled optimism in the claims above?

-What/who/how was "suboptimal traction" determined?
-What was exactly "a fair bit of luggage"?
-Who cares about a 5-10 lb baby seat?

Originally Posted by uae247

I didnt use the 1 foot roll out feature in the Performance Box.

Originally Posted by uae247

The weather was still not optimal. I tried going to an area outside the city, but it was still hot. The temperature was still 27 degrees Celsius.

Originally Posted by uae247

...but the road was not very sticky, but what to do. There was also a slight bend in the road at the end.

Originally Posted by uae247

Not bad at all
Given I had a child seat, one gym bag, one laptop bag, one camera bag and tripod in the trunk.

Originally Posted by uae247

I also got to install a Recaro child seat which went in nicely in the back.

BTW, A Recaro child seat weighs way more than 5-10lb. More likely in the 20~25lb range. I know, I own two.

The point is that UAE247's car probably was 100+lb heavier (+45lb M4->M3 +20~25lb child seat +luggage +options) than the one tested by AZ and was able to achieve 13.4s to 200km/h. It is very possible we will see other M4s faster than 13.4 to 200km/h in other tests, hence this is why I think 13.6 is a bit pessimistic. And no, it is not unbridled optimism.

Originally Posted by swamp2

There is clearly some demand for a nice "database" similar to the one I put a quite a lot of work into (here). Such efforts are nice to display the range of results, possible outliers and of course, near and dear to one of my "mantras" demonstrates the testing too like simulation, but in a very different way, is quite uncertain.

Agreed, testing gives a "range" of values, just like things are in real life

EDIT:
The SportAuto time of 13.7s is more in line with your predictions. They dynoed 465ps at the flywheel though...
Auto Motor & Sport did 13.6s with a 6MT.
Autobild: 13.1

[Just_me]

This Friday we'll know the lap time around N-ring. The new issue of Sportauto.
With dynotest.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by cs4444

The rs5 was nearly 3 years newer than the E92 M3. With more power and AWD you would hope they could make it perform close to the M3. One issue with fastlaps is the laps are often set years apart, different drivers, time of year, and specs (transmission type). Only when the cars are tested same day, and driver can something meaningful be concluded. In those instances the e92 came out on top a more often than not.

This is defensive nonsense. The Audi is quicker on 12 out of 15 tracks, and you say it's meaningless? Get real.

In addition, on this very forum there's a video of both cars on track playing follow the leader, and the M3 can't keep up. The difference isn't huge, but definitely noticeable. The testers in that video seem to think it's Quattro and chassis balance that makes the difference, but both drivers agree the Audi is the quicker car on track.

Bruce

PS - Show me those instances where the BMW came out on top "more often that not", on track.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The SportAuto time of 13.7s is more in line with your predictions. They dynoed 465ps at the flywheel though...
Auto Motor & Sport did 13.6s with a 6MT.
Autobild: 13.1

Time to start an equivalent "database" like the old M3 one, right?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

This is defensive nonsense. The Audi is quicker on 12 out of 15 tracks, and you say it's meaningless? Get real.

In addition, on this very forum there's a video of both cars on track playing follow the leader, and the M3 can't keep up. The difference isn't huge, but definitely noticeable. The testers in that video seem to think it's Quattro and chassis balance that makes the difference, but both drivers agree the Audi is the quicker car on track.

Bruce

PS - Show me those instances where the BMW came out on top "more often that not", on track.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

This is defensive nonsense. The Audi is quicker on 12 out of 15 tracks, and you say it's meaningless? Get real.

In addition, on this very forum there's a video of both cars on track playing follow the leader, and the M3 can't keep up. The difference isn't huge, but definitely noticeable. The testers in that video seem to think it's Quattro and chassis balance that makes the difference, but both drivers agree the Audi is the quicker car on track.

Bruce

PS - Show me those instances where the BMW came out on top "more often that not", on track.

One is boring, one is F8x. Come on boys...

Seriously, if we wanted awd, we would buy that. I for one would eat glass before buyin an other audi. The girl in me doesn't let mistakes being repeated.

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by Lups

One is boring, one is F8x. Come on boys...

Seriously, if we wanted awd, we would buy that. I for one would eat glass before buyin an other audi. The girl in me doesn't let mistakes being repeated.

Go eat your glass. I prefer my R8 V10 to any car BMW makes, and IMHO the current gen A6 3.0T Quattro is superior to the 535 as we have both in our family. But I do plan on getting an M3 to add to the stable in a few years just because I have had a history with M cars. Your hate for Audi cracks me up, but then this is a BMW forum so not surprising.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by PunjabiM3

Go eat your glass. I prefer my R8 V10 to any car BMW makes, and IMHO the current gen A6 3.0T Quattro is superior to the 535 as we have both in our family. But I do plan on getting an M3 to add to the stable in a few years just because I have had a history with M cars. Your hate for Audi cracks me up, but then this is a BMW forum so not surprising.

Haha, thank you, it's good to know I add fun into someone's life. True, this is a BMW forum, but I just posted my opinion. Life or me is fun. I like my cars fast, men Audi alike, and my mind on a slide. RWD suits me, since I don't have a need for safety.

Glass was near, I had a thing for your car too, since I just needed one fast, but the need to have was over ruled by the need to enjoy the edge.

[Liberation]

Originally Posted by PunjabiM3

Go eat your glass. I prefer my R8 V10 to any car BMW makes, and IMHO the current gen A6 3.0T Quattro is superior to the 535 as we have both in our family. But I do plan on getting an M3 to add to the stable in a few years just because I have had a history with M cars. Your hate for Audi cracks me up, but then this is a BMW forum so not surprising.

I'm not biased one way or the other with these two brands and I will probably be getting an F80 next year due to family needs but you're spot on here! A lot of BMW drivers defintely fit the stereotype and these forums can be quite entertaining! If it's not BMW M, it's basically a horse and chariot!

Audi has been dominating BMW in the head to head's throughout the entire class range. Just about every comparison review I've seen between the two brands has the Audi model on top. Even the old S5 was chosen over the brand new 435i in a Car & Driver comparison.

Go drive an S6 and 550 xDrive M Sport back to back and you will see how far apart those two cars are. The S6 is FAR superior in just about every way...and it wasn't even really that close. I was shocked when I, myself, realized this and thus, the S6 was a no brainer and went home with it that day.

Originally Posted by Lups

Haha, thank you, it's good to know I add fun into someone's life. True, this is a BMW forum, but I just posted my opinion. Life or me is fun. I like my cars fast, men Audi alike, and my mind on a slide. RWD suits me, since I don't have a need for safety.

Glass was near, I had a thing for your car too, since I just needed one fast, but the need to have was over ruled by the need to enjoy the edge.

Make sure you save up for all those rear tires you're going to need with all that oversteering on on/off ramps and around back road turns every day!

[USE Z4S]

AWD is like training wheels. When you're ready, you move up to RWD.

Just kidding. I'm not a BMW fanboy, my daily driver is a red 2013 Tundra Crewmax limited. Living in the Rockies it will also be my inclement weather truck.

I skipped over Audi because I've known (and know) people with them and have only heard horror stories about reliability. Saw an RS5 yesterday though and must admit it's a sweet looking car!

And this could just be uninformed bias on my part, but in my researching what car I would spend my hard earned 80k on, Audi never rose to the top as a serious track-able option like the M4.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Liberation

Make sure you save up for all those rear tires you're going to need with all that oversteering on on/off ramps and around back road turns every day!

Haha, I'm no boy, fan or otherwise. We have had audis, and I do like them, for family transport. Mums milk runs need to be done as always with something idiotic, and due to my hate of warm milk, I need a fast car for the mile from the shop back.

This 4 will be solely a toy, and for that Audi is too serious.

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by USE Z4S

AWD is like training wheels. When you're ready, you move up to RWD.

Just kidding. I'm not a BMW fanboy, my daily driver is a red 2013 Tundra Crewmax limited. Living in the Rockies it will also be my inclement weather truck.

I skipped over Audi because I've known (and know) people with them and have only heard horror stories about reliability. Saw an RS5 yesterday though and must admit it's a sweet looking car!

And this could just be uninformed bias on my part, but in my researching what car I would spend my hard earned 80k on, Audi never rose to the top as a serious track-able option like the M4.

That's funny as BMW pretty much has the same reputation about poor reliability. I have a family friend that had to lemon law his 2010 135 and then also had major issues with this replacement 2011 135. He now has a C63 AMG and seems to be quite happy with it aside from the fuel mileage lol. I have owned two e46 M3's, an e92 M3, and an e82 1M and had ZERO issues with them. I have 26k miles on my 2012 A6 and about 5k miles on my 2012 R8, both of which have been trouble free. The R8 is such a special car and every time I pull into my garage with our other cars, I get a big smile on my face when just looking at the rear end of the R8. And driving it is just a fantastic experience; only car I have had that after coming on two years of ownership I have zero desire to ever get rid of it. I can't say the same about any other car I have owned, except perhaps the 1M.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by Liberation

I'm not biased one way or the other with these two brands and I will probably be getting an F80 next year due to family needs but you're spot on here! A lot of BMW drivers defintely fit the stereotype and these forums can be quite entertaining! If it's not BMW M, it's basically a horse and chariot!

Funny thing is the BMW-drivers stigma has migrated to Audi. I was an Audi driver until 2008, but recent reliability plus the types that drive them has me back with BMW (though I was very close to buying the B7 RS4 when it released). I think the RS5 is a very nice car, as is the new S6.

PunjabiM3- I'm glad you like your R8, but at $160,000 I'd hope that you do. Hopefully BMW enter that segment so a comparison can be made. I won't reopen the reliability debate as my experience has been very different to yours -if that stays true then we'll both be happy

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by USE Z4S

AWD is like training wheels. When you're ready, you move up to RWD.

Just kidding. I'm not a BMW fanboy, my daily driver is a red 2013 Tundra Crewmax limited. Living in the Rockies it will also be my inclement weather truck.

I skipped over Audi because I've known (and know) people with them and have only heard horror stories about reliability. Saw an RS5 yesterday though and must admit it's a sweet looking car!

And this could just be uninformed bias on my part, but in my researching what car I would spend my hard earned 80k on, Audi never rose to the top as a serious track-able option like the M4.

Oh and on the AWD comment thing.

The R8 for example has a 90/10 RWD split and the most it will ever transfer to the front wheels is 30%. I was taking a left around an intersection (not 90 degree left, more like 60 degree) and floored it out of the hole. I was not expecting the rear end to break loose and come around due to "AWD", but luckily I caught it. 550hp with 90/10 split is pretty much RWD to me. And I'm not Hans Stuck so in cases like that I am very thankful for the Quattro!

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by Liberation

I'm not biased one way or the other with these two brands and I will probably be getting an F80 next year due to family needs but you're spot on here! A lot of BMW drivers defintely fit the stereotype and these forums can be quite entertaining! If it's not BMW M, it's basically a horse and chariot!

Audi has been dominating BMW in the head to head's throughout the entire class range. Just about every comparison review I've seen between the two brands has the Audi model on top. Even the old S5 was chosen over the brand new 435i in a Car & Driver comparison.

Go drive an S6 and 550 xDrive M Sport back to back and you will see how far apart those two cars are. The S6 is FAR superior in just about every way...and it wasn't even really that close. I was shocked when I, myself, realized this and thus, the S6 was a no brainer and went home with it that day.



Make sure you save up for all those rear tires you're going to need with all that oversteering on on/off ramps and around back road turns every day!

Oh yeah spot on buddy! I love BMW and Audi, and having owned both IMHO people should give respect where it is due. Both companies make great cars, and for someone like myself I would take certain models from each company over the competitor's offerings. For example, I would take a 3-series over an A4, but take the A6 over the 5 series (only the Quattro model, not the stupid FWD model). I would take a A7 over the 6 gran-coupe as BMW priced the 6GC way too high for what it is. And for all you M3/M4 fanboys, yes I would take the M3/M4 over the RS5 and I plan on doing an ED on the M3 in a few years. But BMW has never made anything that competes with the likes of the R8, MB SLS, etc. It's a shame too.

[USE Z4S]

Originally Posted by PunjabiM3

That's funny as BMW pretty much has the same reputation about poor reliability. I have a family friend that had to lemon law his 2010 135 and then also had major issues with this replacement 2011 135. He now has a C63 AMG and seems to be quite happy with it aside from the fuel mileage lol. I have owned two e46 M3's, an e92 M3, and an e82 1M and had ZERO issues with them. I have 26k miles on my 2012 A6 and about 5k miles on my 2012 R8, both of which have been trouble free. The R8 is such a special car and every time I pull into my garage with our other cars, I get a big smile on my face when just looking at the rear end of the R8. And driving it is just a fantastic experience; only car I have had that after coming on two years of ownership I have zero desire to ever get rid of it. I can't say the same about any other car I have owned, except perhaps the 1M.

I know what you mean on the reliability front, and believe me I'm not expecting my new M4 to be anywhere near my Toyotas. When I had my Z4 I swear I spent more time driving loaner BMW's. Luckily I live 5 minutes from the dealership, I've basically resigned myself to the reality that my M4 will spend time there.

Being a Toyota and Honda guy, I just wish they made something like the M4. Closest thing to the M4 will be the new Lexus RC-F, which I think looks amazing and I'm sure will drive amazing, and have bulletproof reliability... but no manual transmission!

Well until my M4 gets here from Germany, I will continue beating the snot out of the company wrapped Scion FR-S with 6 speed manual. That's a fun track toy while I wait!

[brava09]

They are both wonderful machines.

I'll be happy with any of these cars, but for now I'll have to enjoy the RS5.