M4 vs B3 alpina biturbo acceleration

[Supracg135]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

The B3 is not an engine from BMW factory with an aggressive tune. It has a different turbo setup and cooling system, much the same way the M4 engine also has a different turbo setup and cooling system compared to an N55, but in a different way.

The M4 engine produces less torque at lower rpms and more torque at higher rpms compared to the B3 bi-turbo engine. It would be fair to assume that the B3 engine runs higher boost than the M4 engine, but is less de-throttled. I wouldn't know if the turbos are actually the same though. They could also have been taken from the N54 engine I guess...

I just wikied it. Very cool I did not know their cars are produced in the same production line as a standard BMW

[Maddict3]

Originally Posted by ultranick

B3 alpina biturbo damn faster!

what video did you watch? clearly the alpina wasnt faster

[grimlock]

M4 still much faster.. why do they bother

[kevinlevrone]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

So m4 with a tune would really pull away from B3...but stock for stock close.

A bit stupid comment...M4 and Alpina are tuned for the same reliability and their 3-liter bi-turbo engines can both be tuned further. Besides, a tune will not be able to extract much more power than the stock 430hp from a 3-liter engine without extensive hardware modifications.

[krx927]

The other day one B3 stopped at the lights besides my E90. We gave it a go at green and I was just a fraction faster to around 140kmh. One car length advantage.
The difference did not come from my DCT but from pure acceleration...

[kevinlevrone]

Originally Posted by ALPINA B5

sometimes i feel as though alpina's stuff are told by bmw to not be faster than the m's

I think this is true. But we also have to remember that the M3/M4 has a stronger engine block (closed deck) than the stock N55 block (open deck) that Alpina uses. But I really like the fact that Alpina ditched the single-turbo setup of the N55 in favor of a twin-turbo setup. It is a shame for BMW to use the single-turbo N55 in the M235i and 335i/M435i cars. It does not have a strong torque delivery and is not tuneable at all, at least to BMW's expected standards.

[lfelunden]

FYI that is an Alpina B3 Biturbo (410HP) BUT AWD and a stationwagon LOL!

[Asbjorn]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

I think this is true. But we also have to remember that the M3/M4 has a stronger engine block (closed deck) than the stock N55 block (open deck) that Alpina uses. But I really like the fact that Alpina ditched the single-turbo setup of the N55 in favor of a twin-turbo setup. It is a shame for BMW to use the single-turbo N55 in the M235i and 335i/M435i cars. It does not have a strong torque delivery and is not tuneable at all, at least to BMW's expected standards.

Well, it is not really fair to say that it has anything to do with the number of turbos. You could just as easily have had a bi-turbo system which was already running at maximum psi and hence would be less tunable. On the other hand you see lots of both single and bi-turbo systems sold as aftermarket upgrades to N54 cars.

Apart from bi-turbo sounding cooler than twin-scroll single-turbo I am not sure why they have both selected to go down this route on an inline six cylinder engine. It is not like they use variable geometry turbos either...

Perhaps bi-turbo systems, everything else being equal, just offer less lag, and better de-throttling due to the combined flow resistance being less with two exhaust pipes and cats over just one?

[BlackCobra08]

Originally Posted by lawgone

In 2nd gear, the M4 seemed to get stuck a bit at 5500 rpms then farted and kept going. It was strange. Lose traction?

[4er_Meister]

Cool!!!

[v1k1ng01]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

By that definition bmw M is a small volume mfg.....

Alpina's are developed and manufactured as Alpinas. They don't start life out as some other car and become a tuning project like tuners do.

[TeutonicFlight]

Originally Posted by v1k1ng01

Alpina's are developed and manufactured as Alpinas. They don't start life out as some other car and become a tuning project like tuners do.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina

Since the late 1970s Alpina has been recognized by TÜV as an automobile manufacturer, thus Alpina-built cars are branded and registered as Alpina instead of BMW, although an Alpina can be bought and serviced at local BMW dealerships, and covered if there is a warranty issue.

[TeutonicFlight]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Alpina is a small volume manufacturer, not an aftermarket supplier/tuner.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://en.m.wikipedi...iki/Alpina</a>" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<a href="http...Alpina</a></a>

I'm not speaking about Alpinas present day business model. I'm speaking directly about their roots
And beginnings. They most certainly ARE / WERE at tuner (alongside the likes Hartge and ACS) who would take an existing BMW model car ALREADY produced at BMW and take it to their lab and " enhance " it aka tune it for optimum or better than stock performance. Such examples would be their 2.7l striker kit for 2.5l motors of the 80's. ( you prob weren't born yet ) I've owned many grey market Alpinas over the decades it's a BMW that's been tweaked. Pure and simple.
Today's Alpina is a different monster -
it's more like what you said above - B7,B3 and on and on.
To attain the level at which their cars are serviceable and warrantied by BMW and Stealerships in itself is a new and equally remarkable feat that only them and Dinan have achieved.
You could never take your older Alpina into a dealership like you can today.
That's a distinction that doesn't come easy. Their roots in racing ARE tuner roots. Others that are completely new to this world have a long long way to go to ever reach those heights. Examples might include : EAS, IND, LTWhatever it is this week, HPF, Gintani, and so on. Only Dinan and Alpina are recognized by BMW.
It's not just about body kits, wheels, and exhausts...
Just my respectful 2cents !
Respectfully,
Zundefolge !

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by sor

Seems to be about a second behind above 100kph, which is pretty big at those speeds. Several carlengths.

Yeah but.. Alpinas are very fast road cars, not for racing, so car lengths don't really matter when you hit the next set of traffic lights or the cops pull you over... The B3 would never be faster than an M4 anyway, they are different animals.

[JS919]

Call Alpina what you like. The fact is they don't manufacture the cars sold at BMW dealerships. They modify cars manufactured by BMW.

[itf joegun]

Latest after 260 kph when the M3 runs into the speed limiter, the Alpina B3 guy greets and pull the beast until 300. That is what Alpinas are about...

[JS919]

Originally Posted by clbmw

Yeah but.. Alpinas are very fast road cars, not for racing, so car lengths don't really matter when you hit the next set of traffic lights or the cops pull you over... The B3 would never be faster than an M4 anyway, they are different animals.

Yeah but... I thought the topic of this thread is "M4 vs B3 alpina biturbo acceleration". In my opinion when discussing the acceleration difference between two cars, car lengths do matter, not what each respective cars intended use is.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

A bit stupid comment...M4 and Alpina are tuned for the same reliability and their 3-liter bi-turbo engines can both be tuned further. Besides, a tune will not be able to extract much more power than the stock 430hp from a 3-liter engine without extensive hardware modifications.

You make an equally stupid comment.

Nobody has torn down the M3/4 engines to see really what it's about - I'm sure BMW built some margin into their stock tune, and a company like Dinan or Hartge can play around a little before extensive hardware is needed.

They built it with an air-to-water intercooler - that's a clear nod to a little more knock tolerance.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by JS919

Call Alpina what you like. The fact is they don't manufacture the cars sold at BMW dealerships. They modify cars manufactured by BMW.

+1

[kevinlevrone]

Originally Posted by Asbjorn

Perhaps bi-turbo systems, everything else being equal, just offer less lag, and better de-throttling due to the combined flow resistance being less with two exhaust pipes and cats over just one?

Exactly. Of course you can have a single turbo making as much power and torque as a twin-turbo, but not with the same lag (and throttle response) characteristics. It also has to do with separating the exhaust pulses on the twin-turbo system. The twin-scroll attempts to separate the pulses but it shares the same turbine axle so it's not really possible. The BMW single-turbo setups use turbines with significantly lower flow than the combined flow of their twin-turbo setups, in order to keep lag in check.

[Murph335]

What's the point of a b3 again? Is it way cheaper than M?
Looks like if you want an n54 in an f series chassis and willing to spend $15k...
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=872279" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://f30.bimmerpos...p?t=872279</a>

Might as well go m, lighter, LSD, good trans, FAT fenders, and tune will be even more power. Better interior, better pizza, papa johns.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

A bit stupid comment...M4 and Alpina are tuned for the same reliability and their 3-liter bi-turbo engines can both be tuned further. Besides, a tune will not be able to extract much more power than the stock 430hp from a 3-liter engine without extensive hardware modifications.

Completely unbased. I wouldn't be surprised if within 6 months of release people are pushing well over 500whp/500wtq on E85/103 with FBO. Terry from BMS just put down some serious numbers on the N55 powered 435 with just intake and E85. No sense in speculation.

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

You make an equally stupid comment.

Nobody has torn down the M3/4 engines to see really what it's about - I'm sure BMW built some margin into their stock tune, and a company like Dinan or Hartge can play around a little before extensive hardware is needed.

They built it with an air-to-water intercooler - that's a clear nod to a little more knock tolerance.

Agreed. I know for a fact that there are a number of tuners who have ordered an s55 powered car and I'm really excited to see what hits the market soon enough.