M4 GTS Tested by Jeremy Clarkson on The Grand Tour

[schnell325]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Weren't all those that received the original "vouchers" entitled to get a GTS at MSRP?

Absolutely

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Weren't all those that received the original "vouchers" entitled to get a GTS at MSRP?

Exactly. Out of the 300 cars allocated to the US, at the very minimum 150 was sold at MSRP.

[csnyman2]

I think BMW should just stop trying to build a 911. They've been trying to since the E46 CSL, and frankly, that was the closest they ever came. Rather focus on building a normal 911 copy. Just accept the fact that Porsche is the best in that category!

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by csnyman2

I think BMW should just stop trying to build a 911. They've been trying to since the E46 CSL, and frankly, that was the closest they ever came. Rather focus on building a normal 911 copy. Just accept the fact that Porsche is the best in that category!

True statement - only Porsche can build a Porsche.

[Bimmer6]

Unfortunately BMW has devalued the M brand by slapping a M on anything with wheels. However, I get the marketing philosophy because BMW is highly profitable, and it's the reason I have stopped being brand loyal when it comes to cars. I have said several times the M4 may be my last BMW, and I told my dealer if the M5 is simiular to the last I'm done as the brand has cheapened.

I've had three Porsche's since 2013, 991S, 2015 991GT3, and now my 2016 RS with each experience getting better. The dealer experience is great so we will see how they fair over time. The turbo transition has not done them well, and they need to focus on core M products vs. making a M for all segments. It's costing them R and D money, but hats off they're selling cars and we buy them. I just hit my limit with the brand aloofness after 7 cars.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

I don't know if you read what you quoted me say.

Yes, leasing is a great option for many ppl including myself. I leased my company car to take advantage of the tax savings.

The point here is that, a lot of ppl that wouldn't normally have the money to pay for a car all at once or someone that cant afford the monthly payment of financing are now able to afford it with the option of leasing. Now we are not saying everyone on bimmerpost is in the same situation, but I wouldn't doubt there's a high percentage of it.

The difference between a lease and purchase payment is usually only a couple of hundred dollars. I don't think that is the main reason people choose to lease over financing the purchase. I'm sure the lower payment helps, but most don't want to be locked into a sports car purchase out of warranty etc. I'm sure you know BMW makes it very easy and attractive just to keep leasing. Monthly payment is only one of those considerations.

As for overall value of the GTS......only time will tell if it remains at values above MSRP. These things change quickly. For your sake and other owners hopefully they do.

As for your silly comment earlier, that can go many ways. Many here think buying a GTS as a sort of DD like you use it is very silly.

[BMW M4 PWR]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't think anybody in the U.S. bought a GTS at MSRP, so that example is flawed. Those cars sold well above.

If you waited for your allocation damn straight you did. Who'd be dumb enough to WAIT for an *unbuilt car* to then pay over sticker for it ...it's generally only when it already sitting in the showroom, ready to drive home right then and there with no more allocations available when they can (and do) ask for significantly over sticker. Most of the M4 GTS owners I know on here, and the two local here ALL paid sticker for their cars ($136-$139K). They could all sell them for $200K now! (I've seen as high as $250K for them on ebay already) The power of a "real" limited production specialty car...

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Unfortunately BMW has devalued the M brand by slapping a M on anything with wheels. However, I get the marketing philosophy because BMW is highly profitable, and it's the reason I have stopped being brand loyal when it comes to cars. I have said several times the M4 may be my last BMW, and I told my dealer if the M5 is simiular to the last I'm done as the brand has cheapened.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, it's unfortunate ^^ Models like the M4 GTS help, but it's not enough to mitigate the damage of having the dbag down the street with an "M"-320i or "M"-X3

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by minn19

The difference between a lease and purchase payment is usually only a couple of hundred dollars. I don't think that is the main reason people choose to lease over financing the purchase. I'm sure the lower payment helps, but most don't want to be locked into a sports car purchase out of warranty etc. I'm sure you know BMW makes it very easy and attractive just to keep leasing. Monthly payment is only one of those considerations.

As for overall value of the GTS......only time will tell if it remains at values above MSRP. These things change quickly. For your sake and other owners hopefully they do.

As for your silly comment earlier, that can go many ways. Many here think buying a GTS as a sort of DD like you use it is very silly.

Couple hundred bucks a month can make the difference of rolling in a M3/4 or a Civic.

I don't think most GTS owners are worrying about resale values of their cars. Even if it deprecate, it wont depreciate as fast as a regular M3/4.

Yeah, I cant understand why ppl daily drive million dollar exotic cars too. Hopefully I will be at that level to understand what they are thinking. But for now, I am not going to worry about other ppl and concentrate on what I can do to get to that next level.

[lanab]

BMW M is not what they used to be, i am not surprised either that M4 GTS is such a bad performing car on the track, it was worse than I thought actually when i watched Jeremy drive it.

BMW needs to do some serious discussion what they did wrong, I mean how can they release such a bad performing car and get away with it?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

Couple hundred bucks a month can make the difference of rolling in a M3/4 or a Civic.

I don't think most GTS owners are worrying about resale values of their cars. Even if it deprecate, it wont depreciate as fast as a regular M3/4.

Yeah, I cant understand why ppl daily drive million dollar exotic cars too. Hopefully I will be at that level to understand what they are thinking. But for now, I am not going to worry about other ppl and concentrate on what I can do to get to that next level.

I pretty sure almost nobody DDs their "million dollar exotic" cars. That's why you see them for sale all over the place with very low miles.

But that's my point, your ok with saying this and that is silly, but somebody says it to you, you get all offended.

It shouldn't end up depreciating faster, but generally more expensive cars do faster/more than less expensive ones. As I said, time will tell.

How does $200 or less Civic lease compare to a much more expensive M3/4 lease at all?

[lanab]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's not your money that's wasted, it's your poor GTS .

The M4 GTS debate now reminds me of back in the 80's when people realized they should have bought a VHS instead of a Betamax they were stuck with and no one wanted anymore.

Honestly, Jeremy was brutal in his review but he needs to be honest.

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by minn19

I pretty sure almost nobody DDs their "million dollar exotic" cars. That's why you see them for sale all over the place with very low miles.

But that's my point, your ok with saying this and that is silly, but somebody says it to you, you get all offended.

It shouldn't end up depreciating faster, but generally more expensive cars do faster/more than less expensive ones. As I said, time will tell.

How does $200 or less Civic lease compare to a much more expensive M3/4 lease at all?

Again, most GTS owners don't worry about resale value of our cars.

If there were no option to lease, a nicely equipped M3 would be like $1200 a month instead of $600 a month. So instead, a lot of ppl would only be able to afford to finance a Civic for $600 a month. You are silly if you cant understand such simple logic.

[BMW M4 PWR]

Originally Posted by lanab

BMW M is not what they used to be, i am not surprised either that M4 GTS is such a bad performing car on the track, it was worse than I thought actually when i watched Jeremy drive it.

BMW needs to do some serious discussion what they did wrong, I mean how can they release such a bad performing car and get away with it?

I think the settings on that particular car were not optimally calibrated for that tight track they tested it on being it's a fully adjustable track car. Having said that I think the notion of BMW doing "a horrible job" at designing the GTS edition is completely overblown. The problem was the expectations and hype to actual performance ratio of the model. It certainly puts down better laptimes and is racier than the standard or ZCP model in every way! But for the DOUBLE in price ratio of the model relative to the standard M4 it's not hard to see where all the animosity and critic is coming from. What those people need to understand is BMW financial analyst's priced in the popularity of the new platform at the time, it's marketing push/hype, along with the extremely low production allocation to come up with its $136K+ figure. And judging from the fact ALL the allocations were sold before hitting the dealerships I'd say they were correct! lol

...can you just slap on an aftermarket coilover suspension, wheels, a hardcore flash, exhaust, better tires and blow away an M4 GTS with a standard M4/3 with $30,000 to spare!? Of course. But that's beside the point*

[VCP]

Everybody speaking on behalf of theoretical rest SMH. Thread is lost

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

Again, most GTS owners don't worry about resale value of our cars.

If there were no option to lease, a nicely equipped M3 would be like $1200 a month instead of $600 a month. So instead, a lot of ppl would only be able to afford to finance a Civic for $600 a month. You are silly if you cant understand such simple logic.

Uh no, it isn't nearly that big of a difference between payments.

If you guys aren't worried about resale it seems odd that you and others bring it up time and time again in these threads.

[minn19]

[QUOTE=BMW M4 PWR;20970153I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, it's unfortunate ^^ Models like the M4 GTS help, but it's not enough to mitigate the damage of having the dbag down the street with an "M"-320i or "M"-X3 [/QUOTE]

Why are they d-bags because they can't afford a real M car, but still want a taste of it? I think some of you guys need to look in the mirror as to who is being the d-bags.

[RizOne]

It seems the US market is complaining the most. Most other countries don't seem so have as much of an issue with price. Europe has had the CSL and GTS versions before. They understand the pricing from BMW better I think. If you think about it, the main issue is value for your money compared to regular M4 and the GT4/GT3. You really can't compare it to the RS. My gt3 rs came out to msrp $225k plus taxes. I added just a few options like ceramics, some carbon stuff, full leather, led's. The point is the M4 gts comes with all that stuff and a half cage for an easy $100k less. It is much more limited than the RS. BMW could have produced more and maybe charge around $110k for it but they didn't.
I did not see the other driver really losing Jeremy in that video. Jeremy was having to work a lot more in the GTS, it is a handful. This is what I like that it can be a handful. It is a challenge to drive it close to its limits. As enthusiasts, isn't this what we want? The RS is actually quite easy to drive quite quickly. The GTS seems to be more twitchy and setup dependent from what I have seen. I should have mine soon then can really compare them side by side.

[schnell325]

Has anyone with Jeremy Clarkson's personal email or cell phone number sent him a link to this thread?

I would, but something about a restraining order

[VCP]

Originally Posted by RizOne

It seems the US market is complaining the most. Most other countries don't seem so have as much of an issue with price. Europe has had the CSL and GTS versions before. They understand the pricing from BMW better I think. If you think about it, the main issue is value for your money compared to regular M4 and the GT4/GT3. You really can't compare it to the RS. My gt3 rs came out to msrp $225k plus taxes. I added just a few options like ceramics, some carbon stuff, full leather, led's. The point is the M4 gts comes with all that stuff and a half cage for an easy $100k less. It is much more limited than the RS. BMW could have produced more and maybe charge around $110k for it but they didn't.
I did not see the other driver really losing Jeremy in that video. Jeremy was having to work a lot more in the GTS, it is a handful. This is what I like that it can be a handful. It is a challenge to drive it close to its limits. As enthusiasts, isn't this what we want? The RS is actually quite easy to drive quite quickly. The GTS seems to be more twitchy and setup dependent from what I have seen. I should have mine soon then can really compare them side by side.

Doesn't seem so, is so. What a stunner

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by RizOne

It seems the US market is complaining the most. Most other countries don't seem so have as much of an issue with price. Europe has had the CSL and GTS versions before. They understand the pricing from BMW better I think. If you think about it, the main issue is value for your money compared to regular M4 and the GT4/GT3. You really can't compare it to the RS. My gt3 rs came out to msrp $225k plus taxes. I added just a few options like ceramics, some carbon stuff, full leather, led's. The point is the M4 gts comes with all that stuff and a half cage for an easy $100k less. It is much more limited than the RS. BMW could have produced more and maybe charge around $110k for it but they didn't.
I did not see the other driver really losing Jeremy in that video. Jeremy was having to work a lot more in the GTS, it is a handful. This is what I like that it can be a handful. It is a challenge to drive it close to its limits. As enthusiasts, isn't this what we want? The RS is actually quite easy to drive quite quickly. The GTS seems to be more twitchy and setup dependent from what I have seen. I should have mine soon then can really compare them side by side.

I understand the want/need to have a more "difficult" time driving the car - it can definitely make the experience more fun, and that's part of the good-natured, subjective aspect of choosing one car over another. The subjective aspects of these cars are the most fun to debate.

But just because the GTS has a roll cage, wing, etc...is it REALLY on the level of the GT3 or GT3-RS? Can you run the car hard lap after lap after lap, and it just keeps working the exact same way, each and every time? Because that's what the GT3-RS will do. I am not being facetious - I am just asking. I've been in plenty of limp-mode BMWs in my life - never been in a Porsche that did something like that (including my own).

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I understand the want/need to have a more "difficult" time driving the car - it can definitely make the experience more fun, and that's part of the good-natured, subjective aspect of choosing one car over another. The subjective aspects of these cars are the most fun to debate.

But just because the GTS has a roll cage, wing, etc...is it REALLY on the level of the GT3 or GT3-RS? Can you run the car hard lap after lap after lap, and it just keeps working the exact same way, each and every time? Because that's what the GT3-RS will do. I am not being facetious - I am just asking. I've been in plenty of limp-mode BMWs in my life - never been in a Porsche that did something like that (including my own).

Captain Unknown GT4 on here been running the Nurburgring and SPA tracks. I only hear him say how reliable and consistent the GTS is running these circuits and nothing about mechanical failures.

In case you are wondering, do a search and he's posted multiple videos and this guy is no joke. He's running the BTG laps under 8 mins. with traffic.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by RizOne

It seems the US market is complaining the most. Most other countries don't seem so have as much of an issue with price. Europe has had the CSL and GTS versions before. They understand the pricing from BMW better I think. If you think about it, the main issue is value for your money compared to regular M4 and the GT4/GT3. You really can't compare it to the RS. My gt3 rs came out to msrp $225k plus taxes. I added just a few options like ceramics, some carbon stuff, full leather, led's. The point is the M4 gts comes with all that stuff and a half cage for an easy $100k less. It is much more limited than the RS. BMW could have produced more and maybe charge around $110k for it but they didn't.
I did not see the other driver really losing Jeremy in that video. Jeremy was having to work a lot more in the GTS, it is a handful. This is what I like that it can be a handful. It is a challenge to drive it close to its limits. As enthusiasts, isn't this what we want? The RS is actually quite easy to drive quite quickly. The GTS seems to be more twitchy and setup dependent from what I have seen. I should have mine soon then can really compare them side by side.

Two cars one GTS at 130k, and Porsche R at 185k both priced at MSRP. However, GTS trying to pull of a 100k mark up. The R is selling for 500k in the resale market down from a few that sold a 1.1M. The difference the R brand has been around since the 60's. vs. the M4 varient for less than 3 years. History and following will carry Porsche.

I think if BMW had stayed true to the M3 being a coup and continued to evolve the CLS that has BMW history tied to the M3 the brand would do better. You can't just slap a GTS package on the M4 and voila you have created magic. I bought the F10 M5 in 2013, and I think BMW has made several special cars since then. The benefit you have with a RS you know it will always be a RS, and not the special edition RS next year. With several 1000 RS's produced they still sell in the secondary market 100k over for PTS, or 30k to 50k for standard colors.

BMW has sold out to selling more cars which is great, but they kill the brand with every SUV M car devaluing the M brand. From a share holder perspective it's great, but for historic cars no way. McClaren has the same problem they made 500 675 LT's which are trading less than MSRP. Porsche has learned to manage supply and protect the RS brand. The last three years I bought the M5 kept it for three years, and tried the M4, and less than a freaking year they come out with the competition package. I would never buy a first year M car, and not sure I will down the road until they clean up the brand. I was lucky to get the RS which I will not sell or trade, but only for another RS. By the way great driving it you can tame the RS at the limit with all the computers off, many pro's fight the RS at the limit with the computers off. I'm not ready to put a 200k plus car in the wall(: You know each front fender is 14k a piece. Sorry I typed this really fast as this is the 2nd time around. My power died and I lost my write up so this is consolidated thoughts. Moral of the story I love BMW, but I'm done hoping they get their cars right like the old e46 and e39. Those days appear to be gone until they figure out a proper turbo set up, and focus on less M's vs. more.