GTS Water Injection

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 01:15 PM

Hi Gents,

VF hinted in previous posts that one day (soon?), control of the OEM GTS water injection kit or possibly a third-party may be possible from the ECU. Would VF or any other tuners like to chime in here?

I've currently got a Stage II BM3 OTS map that I freakin' love! But PTF have not investigated the GTS water injection yet, and not sure if they will; perhaps owing to interest.

Show of hands if anyone else is interested for them to act and conclude if its possible ha?! PTF you're obviously not scared to differentiate yourselves, so what's one more party trick ha!!

SanchoDivine · 01-13-2018, 01:30 PM

I'm not interested but I bet that this is more likely to become a retrofit now that flash tuning is possible. More tuners and more people tuning means there are more people out there wanting the extra power and more companies competing to get their business.

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

I'm not interested but I bet that this is more likely to become a retrofit now that flash tuning is possible. More tuners and more people tuning means there are more people out there wanting the extra power and more companies competing to get their business.

All GTS have water injection, so for it to be a retrofit kit, it would have to be aimed at the standard M4. The water injection is controlled by the ECU in the GTS, so the required functionality would have to be available in the standard software and be activated (or entirely new software provided).

I'm really curious if the functionality to control the water injection is present in the standard software. It would be great news if it is. Anybody know the answer to this?

mynameisplayer · 01-13-2018, 01:43 PM

How does the GTS trigger the pump? Can a tuner mimic that for meth in a flash? Save having a JB4 and a flash?

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynameisplayer

How does the GTS trigger the pump? Can a tuner mimic that for meth in a flash? Save having a JB4 and a flash?

From the pictures that I've seen, there seems to be an intermediary control unit in the boot well that interfaces with the ECU. I'm speculating the the ECU provides a signal to the water injection control unit the car has started and that it should start if healthy. I believe the control unit also does other clever things like pump water back to the tank when the car is switched off, and perhaps even the ECU adjusts certain parameters if the control unit sends a signal to say for example the tank is empty when the car is running.

The final point leads me to another question, if a third party control unit provided a signal to say their water injection kit had failed (tank empty, pump fault etc.), are any tuners able to adjust parameters in the ECU like boost & timing without requiring a JB4 or similar?

BMWcurious · 01-13-2018, 04:19 PM

N55 screenshot shows flex fuel using the DME. The code is working on a 335i and the new tables can be tuned whilst the engine is running by a laptop whilst an Android device simultaneously displays gauges and datalogs. It is being converted to S55.

You would be able to use this with a controller that outputs a voltage to show its state. Perhaps a flow sensor could be neat.

schnell1982 · 01-13-2018, 04:42 PM

The same water injection is rumored to possibly be used in upcoming BMW engines including non-M cars.
What are your thoughts on using the Fuel-It port injection kit and using it for water injection. Same concept and you can control the water with various controllers.

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWcurious

N55 screenshot shows flex fuel using the DME. The code is working on a 335i and the new tables can be tuned whilst the engine is running by a laptop whilst an Android device simultaneously displays gauges and datalogs. It is being converted to S55.

You would be able to use this with a controller that outputs a voltage to show its state. Perhaps a flow sensor could be neat.

Wow, thanks for the info! My mind is brimming with ideas now

This would enable me to install a predominantly GTS kit, with perhaps just a third party controller and pump, that could interface with the stock ECU to adjust depending on whether the kit was available or not.

If you've got the details of someone I can speak to, PM me please

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnell1982

The same water injection is rumored to possibly be used in upcoming BMW engines including non-M cars.
What are your thoughts on using the Fuel-It port injection kit and using it for water injection. Same concept and you can control the water with various controllers.

I actually want to use the GTS kit for water-methanol mix. I've considered many kits, plenty of great ones. But in some instances I prefer to use OEM parts, plus its nice to do something different and introduce new experiences to the community.

Are you using Fuel-It yourself? If so, how are you finding your setup?

BMWcurious · 01-13-2018, 05:00 PM

The benefit of a 5V flow sensor would be that you could program the DME to adjust all the relevant parameters so that it would implement a flow window that handles failure modes including leaks either side of the pump.

schnell325 · 01-13-2018, 05:02 PM

I believe AWRON has a GTS style water injection kit available.

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWcurious

The benefit of a 5V flow sensor would be that you could program the DME to adjust all the relevant parameters so that it would implement a flow window that handles failure modes including leaks either side of the pump.

I completely understand that. The solution would be incomplete if it didn't account for the system being unavailable, only I didn't know that the stock ECU had the potential to integrate with additional signals, and be programmed to adjust like that. Sounds like there's some great possibilities out there!

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnell325

I believe AWRON has a GTS style water injection kit available.

Thanks! I've seen posts regarding this, but a search on their website returns nothing. Anyone got some more info on this?

BMWcurious · 01-13-2018, 05:26 PM

The S55 has quite a broad range at which it is at full boost, so I wonder how well a simple boost triggered water injection system would work that has the same flow at 2500 RPM that it has at 7500 RPM even though the knock (and superknock) tendency is greater lower down. More sophisticated options on port injection engines used the port injection pulse width to control water delivery rate. I don't know if any systems decode direct injection pulse widths in the same way given that they are often over 60V and the waveform is not a simple square wave but more related to peak-hold. I've just been focused on flex fuel, even though we have no E85 in the UK, but this could be a neat solution

OreoGuy · 01-13-2018, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWcurious

The S55 has quite a broad range at which it is at full boost, so I wonder how well a simple boost triggered water injection system would work that has the same flow at 2500 RPM that it has at 7500 RPM even though the knock (and superknock) tendency is greater lower down. More sophisticated options on port injection engines used the port injection pulse width to control water delivery rate. I don't know if any systems decode direct injection pulse widths in the same way given that they are often over 60V and the waveform is not a simple square wave but more related to peak-hold. I've just been focused on flex fuel, even though we have no E85 in the UK, but this could be a neat solution

Very neat solution indeed. We better get to work then ha!

schnell325 · 01-13-2018, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OreoGuy

Thanks! I've seen posts regarding this, but a search on their website returns nothing. Anyone got some more info on this?

I believe, from looking at their Instagram account, it looks like an OEM GTS water injection kit. Coupled with their software tune.

Brasko · 01-13-2018, 11:00 PM

Subscribed for the knowledge.

OreoGuy · 01-14-2018, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnell325

I believe, from looking at their Instagram account, it looks like an OEM GTS water injection kit. Coupled with their software tune.

You’re right, I recognise the delivery valve. I send them a message for more info. Thanks!

BMWcurious · 01-14-2018, 03:20 AM

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-0...ystem-to-date/

User manual page 20&21 lists DI pulse decoding options and also shows the voltage output vs flow. This or the failsafe voltage could be sent to the DME and work with flex fuel code.

OreoGuy · 01-14-2018, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWcurious

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-0...ystem-to-date/

User manual page 20&21 lists DI pulse decoding options and also shows the voltage output vs flow. This or the failsafe voltage could be sent to the DME and work with flex fuel code.

Thanks for the info. The Aquamist kit looks fantastic. I was considered and have contacted Snow Performance (as well as Awron, owing to the comments above on their system), but I'm going to send an email to Aquamist right away.

I'll ask them regarding recommend installers in the UK, but if you know any reputable people, then don't hesitate to send me a PM. Thanks for all the info buddy!!

BMWcurious · 01-14-2018, 04:06 AM

Richard's support is legendary although it was about 15 years ago we last communicated. His documentation is superb, would read that before emailing unless you are just looking for an installer.

aboulfad · 01-14-2018, 06:01 AM

A very basic noob curious question, if let's say in a GTS, the water tank is empty, what is the difference in performance ? I've read and can't recall where, that the performance difference for a same engine with and without water injection is very small. Is it true?

The benefits and detailed operation are well explained in Ch 4, p32-46, http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1262417 but the only mention about performance impact on p37, is that with a water tank < 300ml, the power map is lowered to the base S55 engine.

Surely water injection does NOT account for that performance increase, putting aside the benefits to reducing wear and tear on engine parts, what is the net performance improvement of a water injection system on the GTS.

01-13-2018, 01:15 PM	#1
OreoGuy Private 18 Rep 62 Posts Drives: F82 CP Satin Black Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Midlands, UK iTrader: (0)	GTS Water Injection Hi Gents, VF hinted in previous posts that one day (soon?), control of the OEM GTS water injection kit or possibly a third-party may be possible from the ECU. Would VF or any other tuners like to chime in here? I've currently got a Stage II BM3 OTS map that I freakin' love! But PTF have not investigated the GTS water injection yet, and not sure if they will; perhaps owing to interest. Show of hands if anyone else is interested for them to act and conclude if its possible ha?! PTF you're obviously not scared to differentiate yourselves, so what's one more party trick ha!!
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01-13-2018, 01:30 PM	#2
SanchoDivine Captain 554 Rep 908 Posts Drives: 2017 F80 M3 Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (0)	I'm not interested but I bet that this is more likely to become a retrofit now that flash tuning is possible. More tuners and more people tuning means there are more people out there wanting the extra power and more companies competing to get their business. __________________ '17 Alpine White M3, Club 6MT instagram.com/sancho_divine
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01-13-2018, 01:43 PM	#4
mynameisplayer SCHNELL 225 Rep 835 Posts Drives: F15 50i, E46, E90, Crafter van Join Date: May 2016 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	How does the GTS trigger the pump? Can a tuner mimic that for meth in a flash? Save having a JB4 and a flash?
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01-13-2018, 04:19 PM	#6
BMWcurious Private First Class 227 Rep 182 Posts Drives: Various BMWs Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: St Andrews iTrader: (0)	N55 screenshot shows flex fuel using the DME. The code is working on a 335i and the new tables can be tuned whilst the engine is running by a laptop whilst an Android device simultaneously displays gauges and datalogs. It is being converted to S55. You would be able to use this with a controller that outputs a voltage to show its state. Perhaps a flow sensor could be neat. Attached Images
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01-13-2018, 04:42 PM	#7
schnell1982 Captain 345 Rep 966 Posts Drives: FAST Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	The same water injection is rumored to possibly be used in upcoming BMW engines including non-M cars. What are your thoughts on using the Fuel-It port injection kit and using it for water injection. Same concept and you can control the water with various controllers.
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01-13-2018, 05:00 PM	#10
BMWcurious Private First Class 227 Rep 182 Posts Drives: Various BMWs Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: St Andrews iTrader: (0)	The benefit of a 5V flow sensor would be that you could program the DME to adjust all the relevant parameters so that it would implement a flow window that handles failure modes including leaks either side of the pump.
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01-13-2018, 05:02 PM	#11
schnell325 Bored at work.... 890 Rep 5,391 Posts Drives: 2016 F82 M4 GTS//2022 M235iGC Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Comox Valley iTrader: (8)	I believe AWRON has a GTS style water injection kit available.
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01-13-2018, 05:26 PM	#14
BMWcurious Private First Class 227 Rep 182 Posts Drives: Various BMWs Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: St Andrews iTrader: (0)	The S55 has quite a broad range at which it is at full boost, so I wonder how well a simple boost triggered water injection system would work that has the same flow at 2500 RPM that it has at 7500 RPM even though the knock (and superknock) tendency is greater lower down. More sophisticated options on port injection engines used the port injection pulse width to control water delivery rate. I don't know if any systems decode direct injection pulse widths in the same way given that they are often over 60V and the waveform is not a simple square wave but more related to peak-hold. I've just been focused on flex fuel, even though we have no E85 in the UK, but this could be a neat solution
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01-13-2018, 11:00 PM	#17
Brasko #LSBM3 1420 Rep 1,973 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW M3 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Oregon / Florida iTrader: (4) Garage List 1984 BMW R65 [0.00] 2020 Ford F-150 XLT ... [0.00] 2003 Mitsubishi Evo ... [0.00] 2016 M3 Competition ... [10.00]	Subscribed for the knowledge. __________________ /// M3
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01-14-2018, 03:20 AM	#19
BMWcurious Private First Class 227 Rep 182 Posts Drives: Various BMWs Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: St Andrews iTrader: (0)	http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-0...ystem-to-date/ User manual page 20&21 lists DI pulse decoding options and also shows the voltage output vs flow. This or the failsafe voltage could be sent to the DME and work with flex fuel code. Last edited by BMWcurious; 01-14-2018 at 03:39 AM..
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01-14-2018, 04:06 AM	#21
BMWcurious Private First Class 227 Rep 182 Posts Drives: Various BMWs Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: St Andrews iTrader: (0)	Richard's support is legendary although it was about 15 years ago we last communicated. His documentation is superb, would read that before emailing unless you are just looking for an installer.
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01-14-2018, 06:01 AM	#22
aboulfad Brigadier General 1593 Rep 3,945 Posts Drives: 2015 M4 MG/SO Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: MTL, QC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2015 BMW M4 [10.00]	A very basic noob curious question, if let's say in a GTS, the water tank is empty, what is the difference in performance ? I've read and can't recall where, that the performance difference for a same engine with and without water injection is very small. Is it true? The benefits and detailed operation are well explained in Ch 4, p32-46, http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1262417 but the only mention about performance impact on p37, is that with a water tank < 300ml, the power map is lowered to the base S55 engine. Surely water injection does NOT account for that performance increase, putting aside the benefits to reducing wear and tear on engine parts, what is the net performance improvement of a water injection system on the GTS.
	Appreciate 0 Quote