Track - Staggered or Square?

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by DaBean

I agree with going square - I have that on my E46 and I love being able to pick and choose which tire I want where, depending on the track and existing wear.

I am also concerned with using spacers at the track. Doesn't that put a LOT more pressure on the hub, accelerating wear and potentially setting up for deformation?

Can someone confirm? An ET33 offset for an 18x10 wheel will work well for front and rear, with 275-width R888, using stock suspension (no camber plates... yet) and no spacers?

I'll be installing my 18x10et33 with 10mm front spacers, none rear and 275/35 NT01s. I'll post photos when I get em mounted up.

I've heard people swear for and against spacers... I've decided a smallish spacer by a big company is fine (I'm getting macht schell)... plenty people use them it seems without a major trend of mechanical failures so i decided that the benefits outweigh the potential risks to me.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

I'll be installing my 18x10et33 with 10mm front spacers, none rear and 275/35 NT01s. I'll post photos when I get em mounted up.

I've heard people swear for and against spacers... I've decided a smallish spacer by a big company is fine (I'm getting macht schell)... plenty people use them it seems without a major trend of mechanical failures so i decided that the benefits outweigh the potential risks to me.

Macht Schell make really good stuff. You can never go wrong with their spacers. No vibration issues ever been reported (to my knowledge) on MS spacers. I can't say the same for lower end brands. Please post photos to the this thread when you have it installed. We want this thread to be a rolling knowledge compository of track fitments.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Macht Schell make really good stuff. You can never go wrong with their spacers. No vibration issues ever been reported (to my knowledge) on MS spacers. I can't say the same for lower end brands. Please post photos to the this thread when you have it installed. We want this thread to be a rolling knowledge compository of track fitments.

i sure will. should have them in a week or so... gotta wait for the ATE dot 4 and RS29 pads and gonna do it all at once before my track day early next month. i'll be taking some amateur-quality shots with my DSLR lol. i think the "what wheels, tires, spacers, and suspension has worked and hasn't worked" is a great thread.

i'll report back

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

i sure will. should have them in a week or so... gotta wait for the ATE dot 4 and RS29 pads and gonna do it all at once before my track day early next month. i'll be taking some amateur-quality shots with my DSLR lol. i think the "what wheels, tires, spacers, and suspension has worked and hasn't worked" is a great thread.

i'll report back

Sounds great working on what tires to get. Right now I am between RS3's and AD08R's. RS29 pads seem the go to pads right now.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by buildbright

Sounds great working on what tires to get. Right now I am between RS3's and AD08R's. RS29 pads seem the go to pads right now.

you'll find plenty love for both of those .. I went with nt01 275/35/18.. too many rave reviews and people using them all the way until they cord without heat cycling them out first. I can't wait to try them out.

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

you'll find plenty love for both of those .. I went with nt01 275/35/18.. too many rave reviews and people using them all the way until they cord without heat cycling them out first. I can't wait to try them out.

Let me know about those tires I hear mixed reviews about them. But this is the internet. I have RS3's on my tuned 335i and they are awesome. I can drive aggressive even in the rain without issue.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by buildbright

Let me know about those tires I hear mixed reviews about them. But this is the internet. I have RS3's on my tuned 335i and they are awesome. I can't drive aggressive even in the rain without issue.

there are mixed reviews for everything, honestly. I'll post my humble feedback after my track days next month.

[Gtrny]

Nice write up!!
I picked up apex ec7 18x10 +25 aquarium set up,
May I run stager tire with same wheels?
I'm new to m3

Thanks

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by Gtrny

Nice write up!!
I picked up apex ec7 18x10 +25 aquarium set up,
May I run stager tire with same wheels?
I'm new to m3

Thanks

With ET25, it will stick out if you run anything larger than 275. I'll let others chime in who had experience with such aggressive offset. I'm using the reference of guys who has stock ET40 rear wheels with 15mm spacers, which puts it at ET25. They are very flush with very little wiggle room with 275/40/18.

If I were you, I'd run 275/35/18 all around. That, I know will fit and you can rotate your tires. If it was ET33, you could do 295/35/18 rear and 265/35/18 front.

[Gtrny]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

With ET25, it will stick out if you run anything larger than 275. I'll let others chime in who had experience with such aggressive offset. I'm using the reference of guys who has stock ET40 rear wheels with 15mm spacers, which puts it at ET25. They are very flush with very little wiggle room with 275/40/18.

If I were you, I'd run 275/35/18 all around. That, I know will fit and you can rotate your tires. If it was ET33, you could do 295/35/18 rear and 265/35/18 front.

Ok I have a nt01 275 square So I ll try this set up next month @ njmp thunder.
I want to try next set of tire for 275 Front 295 Rear!
Thank you in put!

[CSBM5]

With the NT-01s, make sure you inspect the rears after every session on track, and rotate to the other side of the car, as needed, to change the direction of rotation. The tread splice tends to open on them these days (issue started maybe 3 years back now, and has come and gone since then with various batches), and you don't want to have it tear open a large gap. If you swap the rotation of the rears, you'll be forcing one tire to be putting closing pressure on the splice while the other is stressing it to open. It's about the best you can do.

I've not seen an issue with the fronts opening up (due to large breaking forces), and I can only imagine that the F80 will stress the rears more than my M5 and M3 do. There is a long thread on this issue in the E9x M3 section of the board.

As to the NT-01 itself, I've used them for 8 years now, and they are a wonderful mid-line R-comp tire that can be driven on the street to/from events. They will give a lot more audible feedback at high slip angles near/over the limits than more dedicated track tires (Hoosier A6/R6, BFG R1/R1S, etc), and they are more forgiving it you step over the peak of that tractive force plot.

I'm also amazed at how they stick well for many heat cycles. Back in 2012 a friend did a private track rental, so I pulled out a mounted set I had for the M5 that had been used a bunch but had been sitting, covered, in conditioned garage, since 2009. I put them on for a quick test, and grip was still excellent however the edges were just starting to show cords after I came in, so I had to use PSS for that event.

Have fun, but watch those rear tire's tread splice!

Regards,
Chuck

P.S. For the F8x, if it was me, I would actually consider running a staggered setup simply due to the torque output curve of the S55. I'd want a 295 or 305 in the rear. If that's not possible, you give up rotation, but running a 275/40-18 in the rear might help hook up a bit given it's slightly larger diameter.

[MaynardZed]

Bunch of good info here. I'll just add that might worth looking at tweaking the stock alignment a bit too. Couple of issues we've noted with the F8X chassis on the track. Its a bit lazy on turn in, stock alignment has some front toe in so we made it neutral and it has helped some. I may even go a little bit of toe out next time.

Obviously its a little tail happy with 460 ft/lb torque (Dinan) at the rear wheels. There is not much toe in from factory to help this, so we added more. I think we are at 3/8 total toe in for the rear now. This will probably be especially helpful if you're running 275 square. As its been mentioned a bunch, the M-mode is near useless on the track so you'll need to get comfortable eventually with tracking with everything off.

Couldn't mess with camber/caster much yet since I'm on stock suspension. IIRC it had -1.2 camber / +7.0 caster (wow?) in front and -2.0 camber in the rear.

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by Gtrny

Ok I have a nt01 275 square So I ll try this set up next month @ njmp thunder.
I want to try next set of tire for 275 Front 295 Rear!
Thank you in put!

Run the 305 rear. It is a near perfect match to the stock diameters and you will want as much rubber as you can put back there.... trust me.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by slavearm

Run the 305 rear. It is a near perfect match to the stock diameters and you will want as much rubber as you can put back there.... trust me.

assuming this is what you've done, what wheel specs worked for you?

thanks!

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

assuming this is what you've done, what wheel specs worked for you?

thanks!

18x10 +25 275/35/18
18x11 +35 305/35/18

The 275 for the front everyone has in stock. The 305 rears usually need to be ordered, but are available.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by slavearm

18x10 +25 275/35/18
18x11 +35 305/35/18

The 275 for the front everyone has in stock. The 305 rears usually need to be ordered, but are available.

Is your car lowered? I just realized tires are cheaper in 19s for those odd sizes. Ideal staggered setup would be 275/30/19 front and 305/30/19.

275/30/19 all around for square setup.

I might do 19s staggered which should look good for street and track. The price difference of tires should help justify the inability to rotate tires front to back. Anyone disagree?

[CanAutM3]

What has not gotten me fully convinced about a staggered width setup for the F8X is the weight distribution of the car. The F8X remains with a front biased weight distribution, which means the front tires need to work a little more during cornering.

While a slight stagger might be beneficial to handle the power, I am not convinced it will outweigh the benefit of being able to roatate tires on the fly. I guess I will find out after a few events. Only 2 weeks to go until my season opener .

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What has not gotten me fully convinced about a staggered width setup for the F8X is the weight distribution of the car. The F8X remains with a front biased weight distribution, which means the front tires need to work a little more during cornering.

You certainly are correct, and of course we really don't know much about the dynamics, particularly me. But you might be discounting the dynamic weight shift maybe too much.

My expectation is under braking the weight shift to the front axle and unloading of the rear will be enough to prevent terminal understeer, except it will be easier to overload the front tries probably. Under acceleration, the weight shift to the rear will certainly put more weight on the rear axle than the front, by how much - I don't know, but enough that the largest possible tires combined with low gear torque hitting the rears will feel very good

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by FTS

You certainly are correct, and of course we really don't know much about the dynamics, particularly me. But you might be discounting the dynamic weight shift maybe too much.

My expectation is under braking the weight shift to the front axle and unloading of the rear will be enough to prevent terminal understeer, except it will be easier to overload the front tries probably. Under acceleration, the weight shift to the rear will certainly put more weight on the rear axle than the front, by how much - I don't know, but enough that the largest possible tires combined with low gear torque hitting the rears will feel very good

Some of the guys have complained 275 isn't enough rubber for the rear. Our cars are tail happy and have tons of torque.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What has not gotten me fully convinced about a staggered width setup for the F8X is the weight distribution of the car. The F8X remains with a front biased weight distribution, which means the front tires need to work a little more during cornering.

While a slight stagger might be beneficial to handle the power, I am not convinced it will outweigh the benefit of being able to roatate tires on the fly. I guess I will find out after a few events. Only 2 weeks to go until my season opener .

I'll wait for your feedback before making a decision on my June track setup.

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

I'll wait for your feedback before making a decision on my June track setup.

Just at big willow yesterday. Go staggered. Just look at everyone in the dirt for proof. Too much torque. No amount of weight bias is going to make up for that. This car does not understeer... it oversteers... ALOT. You need the extra meat out back to help balance it out.

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What has not gotten me fully convinced about a staggered width setup for the F8X is the weight distribution of the car. The F8X remains with a front biased weight distribution, which means the front tires need to work a little more during cornering.

While a slight stagger might be beneficial to handle the power, I am not convinced it will outweigh the benefit of being able to roatate tires on the fly. I guess I will find out after a few events. Only 2 weeks to go until my season opener .

1. I am not going to say much to this because I don't really want to start a flame war, but that only matters during turn in. The moment you get to the apex and put the hammer down, it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is how much traction you can generate with your rear wheels.

2. You can deal with most of that by handling weight distribution with the brake and throttle.

3. A front weight biased car rear wheel drive car will tend to oversteer. Which is why you add more traction to the rear to counter.