My Comprehensive Review of M3/M4 - High Definition Pictures/FAQ Included

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Thanks for taking the time to do a detailed review, and post a lot of pics. It's always informative to see other people's opinion especially after I've seen the car in person myself.

I disagree with quite a few points that you made, but I won't really get into it as much of it is subjective things that really are a matter of opinion.

However, I will argue one point. If you don't think the rear seat room is an upgrade, then I'm not sure what to think. It's so much roomier than the E90, it's not even funny. In that car, if I adjusted the front seat for myself, the rear seat cushion was maybe 3-4" away from the back of the front seat. No way anyone could actually sit there. .

agree totally.

amazing how different people can interpret the same thing.

good that you got to see the car in person, realstig. I recommend anyone do this if possible. I personally was much more impressed in person than I expected to be and had a totally different impression of the interior. And I own an m3

[RealStig]

I wasnt necessarily talking about leg room. Yes there is probably 1-2 finger lengths more leg room. I was talking about still feeling cramped up in a small car or being just uncomfortable. My biggest gripe is the fact that i cant have 4 adults in the car without hearing them complain. You always feel claustrophobic. Maybe its the seats themselves and their angle or the overall cushion they provide.

An inche extra leg room is meaningless to me. I or anyone who sat in my car never complained about the leg room in the first place. I'm 5'11" and my wife is 5'10" so there was never lack of leg room anywhere in the car to begin with. My point is, the seats, especially the backseats, dont feel any different in terms of comfort and support. They are still 3 series seats, they are not like the old 5 series seats, totally different.

[/// M sa]

I guess your not buying this car?

[Black Gold]

just an observation

it seems like a lot of your concerns all relate to wanting a larger and more luxurious car. that's not really what the 3 series or m3 is. and that's why its at the price point it is, and that's why it drives as well as it does and is versatile.

the fact that you can get a car as nicely appointed and with the performance of the m3 for 65k with solid options is damn impressive in the day of the 35k camry / accord.

I personally wouldn't want to spend any more money on an m3 than it costs, and think it is very luxurious and well appointed. Ive driven a lot in the new m6 and don't think the m3 seats give up anything to the m6, they are both great. probably just depends on body type.

the plastic on the rear of the front seats is more of a sporty seat style, similar to a racing seat or the adaptive sports seats in a Porsche, which I like.

my point is that a lot of your comments just speak more to what you are looking for in a car rather than how the m3 fits into the market and matches up with its competition. this car takes the interior bar and raises it above the rs5, another car which I have driven for about 2500 miles. the interior of that car is much nicer than my e9x, but cant compete with the f8x.

JMO.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by //M sa

I guess your not buying this car?

I am buying it. I have one on order. Unless the steering turns out to be a big flop, I will buy it. But I am buying it more so because I have no other choice not because I am in love with it. It is an incremental update to the current M3, comes with new tires, warranty, free maintenance. That's about it. Its the sensible and logical thing to do for me. I was hoping to fall in love with the car this weekend and i didnt. I guess love at first sight for a car only happens for the first time

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

just an observation

it seems like a lot of your concerns all relate to wanting a larger and more luxurious car. that's not really what the 3 series or m3 is. and that's why its at the price point it is, and that's why it drives as well as it does and is versatile.

the fact that you can get a car as nicely appointed and with the performance of the m3 for 65k with solid options is damn impressive in the day of the 35k camry / accord.

I personally wouldn't want to spend any more money on an m3 than it costs, and think it is very luxurious and well appointed. Ive driven a lot in the new m6 and don't think the m3 seats give up anything to the m6, they are both great. probably just depends on body type.

the plastic on the rear of the front seats is more of a sporty seat style, similar to a racing seat or the adaptive sports seats in a Porsche, which I like.

my point is that a lot of your comments just speak more to what you are looking for in a car rather than how the m3 fits into the market and matches up with its competition. this car takes the interior bar and raises it above the rs5, another car which I have driven for about 2500 miles. the interior of that car is much nicer than my e9x, but cant compete with the f8x.

JMO.

Agreed.

I'm actually wrestling with a similar quandry. I owned an F10 5 series, fully kitted with almost every option, including Nappa, lux seat package, etc. It was a sublime cruiser.

But it drove like shit.

Now the M5 rectifies that problem. It's big and luxurious, but it drives really well. However, I'm really craving that lightness, that reaction, etc. The M3 is a perfect compromise for me. No, it's not as luxurious or as large as a 5....but my wife's car has enough room I don't need to worry about that. We have two kids in seats so no adults sit in the back anyway. The 3 is big ENOUGH to get by even though it's not a full sized car.

The M5 is awesome, but it's just so much car. Really on a day to day basis, I'd be frustrated knowing how little of the car i used. I supposed if I was totally loaded and didn't care, had 3-4 other cars then it would be a perfect daily. But I'm not.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by thai357sig

I think what he is saying is that the step up in performance and luxury from his E9X M3 and the 335 was incrementally larger vs the F8X and the current 435.

.

So you want to tell me the e92 is more luxury than the new m3? 335 with sports packages is/was descent as I drive one and have been in the e92x and was not all that impressed.

One more point, how the heck does he know about the performance of the car? Did he drive it? Let's go based on what is being given to us by BMW and that is a large step over the heavy over rated old m3. I know that many e92x owners are in love with their cars, I have read the forums and it's amazing for bunch of grown men circle jerk over a car that is not all that impressive.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I am buying it. I have one on order. Unless the steering turns out to be a big flop, I will buy it. But I am buying it more so because I have no other choice not because I am in love with it. It is an incremental update to the current M3, comes with new tires, warranty, free maintenance. That's about it. Its the sensible and logical thing to do for me. I was hoping to fall in love with the car this weekend and i didnt. I guess love at first sight for a car only happens for the first time

That makes absolutely no sense, you can still buy the current 2013 M3 and have 4 year warranty and still be in love with the car you still want.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

just an observation

it seems like a lot of your concerns all relate to wanting a larger and more luxurious car. that's not really what the 3 series or m3 is. and that's why its at the price point it is, and that's why it drives as well as it does and is versatile.

the fact that you can get a car as nicely appointed and with the performance of the m3 for 65k with solid options is damn impressive in the day of the 35k camry / accord.

I personally wouldn't want to spend any more money on an m3 than it costs, and think it is very luxurious and well appointed. Ive driven a lot in the new m6 and don't think the m3 seats give up anything to the m6, they are both great. probably just depends on body type.

the plastic on the rear of the front seats is more of a sporty seat style, similar to a racing seat or the adaptive sports seats in a Porsche, which I like.

my point is that a lot of your comments just speak more to what you are looking for in a car rather than how the m3 fits into the market and matches up with its competition. this car takes the interior bar and raises it above the rs5, another car which I have driven for about 2500 miles. the interior of that car is much nicer than my e9x, but cant compete with the f8x.

JMO.

This is all true. But I have every right to expect more after having owned a fully loaded M3 for so long. I am not saying this is a bad car but I am also not going to sit here and lie about how I felt about it. This is how I felt about it. I liked it, but I wasnt drooling or losing sleep over it. If I were given a choice between rs5, amg, and this, i would still take m3 any day, but I am doing this because its the best car compared to the other cars not because its the best car by my standards at this point.

I have said time after time I would buy an M5 in a heartbeat if it werent 1000 lbs heavier. I think after driving 3 series for so long (and I m not a single guy or married with no kids, I do have a kid and I always have either my parents or in laws in my car), I am a bit tired of it.

I had been reading the comments about how the new 3 series is now like the old 5 series and i had high expectations about that which werent met.

This car still feels inferior to the E60 M5, both in the areas of comfort and luxury. BMW made damn sure that there is enough plastic and lack of seat cushion and overall interior space that all other cars even the previous models still have a market

Anyways, I'm not sure why you guys are targeting only 1 aspect of my review. I have liked this car after all and have liked a lot of its features and aspects.

On the other hand, there are other things I didnt like which I dont see any debate about such as the power dome. The new power dome looks really underwhelming to me but from outside and inside.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by //M sa

That makes absolutely no sense, you can still buy the current 2013 M3 and have 4 year warranty and still be in love with the car you still want.

I am driving a sedan which finished production 2 years ago. I'm not sure what current M3 you are referring to. My warranty will be over very soon.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by //M sa

So you want to tell me the e92 is more luxury than the new m3? 335 with sports packages is/was descent as I drive one and have been in the e92x and was not all that impressed.

One more point, how the heck does he know about the performance of the car? Did he drive it? Let's go based on what is being given to us by BMW and that is a large step over the heavy over rated old m3. I know that many e92x owners are in love with their cars, I have read the forums and it's amazing for bunch of grown men circle jerk over a car that is not all that impressive.

Ummm, it's actually very impressive. All depends on what you're looking for. If you owned a GTR then I can understand why you didn't find it impressive.

2 different type of cars.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by elitex

Ummm, it's actually very impressive. All depends on what you're looking for. If you owned a GTR then I can understand why you didn't find it impressive.

2 different type of cars.

To add your point, I have never said the new car did not feel more luxurious over the old one. I was very careful about that. I said the incremental upgrade was less than I was expecting. Its still better but not as much as I was hoping.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by RealStig

This is all true. But I have every right to expect more after having owned a fully loaded M3 for so long. I am not saying this is a bad car but I am also not going to sit here and lie about how I felt about it. This is how I felt about it. I liked it, but I wasnt drooling or losing sleep over it. If I were given a choice between rs5, amg, and this, i would still take m3 any day, but I am doing this because its the best car compared to the other cars not because its the best car by my standards at this point.

I have said time after time I would buy an M5 in a heartbeat if it werent 1000 lbs heavier. I think after driving 3 series for so long (and I m not a single guy or married with no kids, I do have a kid and I always have either my parents or in laws in my car), I am a bit tired of it.

I had been reading the comments about how the new 3 series is now like the old 5 series and i had high expectations about that which werent met.

This car still feels inferior to the E60 M5, both in the areas of comfort and luxury. BMW made damn sure that there is enough plastic and lack of seat cushion and overall interior space that all other cars even the previous models still have a market

Anyways, I'm not sure why you guys are targeting only 1 aspect of my review. I have liked this car after all and have liked a lot of its features and aspects.

On the other hand, there are other things I didnt like which I dont see any debate about such as the power dome. The new power dome looks really underwhelming to me but from outside and inside.

1000 lbs lighter 5 series won't be a 5 series anymore.

Actually they do make a 1000 lbs lighter 5 series, it's called a 3 series. All the luxury appointments weigh a ton. You can't have it all at this price point at this time.

[messm6]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

just an observation

it seems like a lot of your concerns all relate to wanting a larger and more luxurious car. that's not really what the 3 series or m3 is. and that's why its at the price point it is, and that's why it drives as well as it does and is versatile.

the fact that you can get a car as nicely appointed and with the performance of the m3 for 65k with solid options is damn impressive in the day of the 35k camry / accord.

I personally wouldn't want to spend any more money on an m3 than it costs, and think it is very luxurious and well appointed. Ive driven a lot in the new m6 and don't think the m3 seats give up anything to the m6, they are both great. probably just depends on body type.

the plastic on the rear of the front seats is more of a sporty seat style, similar to a racing seat or the adaptive sports seats in a Porsche, which I like.

my point is that a lot of your comments just speak more to what you are looking for in a car rather than how the m3 fits into the market and matches up with its competition. this car takes the interior bar and raises it above the rs5, another car which I have driven for about 2500 miles. the interior of that car is much nicer than my e9x, but cant compete with the f8x.

JMO.

This!!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I am buying it. I have one on order. Unless the steering turns out to be a big flop, I will buy it. But I am buying it more so because I have no other choice not because I am in love with it. It is an incremental update to the current M3, comes with new tires, warranty, free maintenance. That's about it. Its the sensible and logical thing to do for me. I was hoping to fall in love with the car this weekend and i didnt. I guess love at first sight for a car only happens for the first time

Originally Posted by RealStig

I am driving a sedan which finished production 2 years ago. I'm not sure what current M3 you are referring to. My warranty will be over very soon.

I'm not sure if BMW closed this loophole now, but I recall what people would do is sell the car back to the dealership and rebuy CPO, effectively giving them 2yr/100000k warranty. Dealerships would cut good deals on this because it gave them a sale and they did make a small profit.

If you love your E90 that much and are only the new one out of perceived necessity, it is something to think about. It would also give you time to see the W205 AMG sedan and B9 S4 to see what the competition is offering for their next generation cars.

I have to say though, that it seems many of the problems you have with the F80 are based on what you want it to be, rather than based upon things it lacks that your E90 M3 has. On that basis, perhaps you need to reevaluate whether your needs haven't perhaps changed based on your E90 M3 experiences, and what you really need to do is move onto a larger or more luxurious car.

Originally Posted by RealStig

I had been reading the comments about how the new 3 series is now like the old 5 series and i had high expectations about that which werent met.

Yeah, people tend to say things like that every generation. You have to be diligent and gather opinions from a number of different sources. From my point of view I never thought the F30 was anything more than a successor to the E90, so I was never and am not now expecting a more luxurious car overall. Small improvements, slightly larger, and for the M3, faster and more efficient. I think that if you spend enough time listening to the prevailing opinions on Bimmerpost, you'll conclude this is pretty much the consensus. Just like every generation - steady, incremental improvements.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'm not sure if BMW closed this loophole now, but I recall what people would do is sell the car back to the dealership and rebuy CPO, effectively giving them 2yr/100000k warranty. Dealerships would cut good deals on this because it gave them a sale and they did make a small profit.

If you love your E90 that much and are only the new one out of perceived necessity, it is something to think about. It would also give you time to see the W205 AMG sedan and S4 to see what the competition is offering for their next generation cars.

I have to say though, that it seems many of the problems you have with the F80 are based on what you want it to be, rather than based upon things it lacks that your E90 has. On that basis, perhaps you need to reevaluate whether your needs haven't perhaps changed based on your E90 experiences, and what you really need to do is move onto a larger or more luxurious car.

Yes, they have offered the CPO my car but it's going to cost me another 3.5k and it is the basic warranty they provide. If I hold on to it, I could negotiate with other dealerships for better warranty. But it's not just that, if I keep this car, I need to take care of it, that's a lot of oil changes, tires, fix this and fix that. It is showing age. The seats, the doors. I don't want to do any of this. It's way too much headache, and I don't love my car THAT much. And I am going to love the new M3 more than my car because it will be new and have a whole bunch of new features.

I think of all the negative things I have mentioned in my review, only one was picked out. There are other aspects of the new car which I think is a step backwards such as the sound system, or the black leather, or the power dome, or non adjustable back seat headrests, plastic center console, you name it.

All I had said was the car didn't feel more roomy and the seats didn't really feel like such a big upgrade. I didn't say they are bad or not luxurious. But I don't see anyone challenging those other aspects. The sound system for example, what were ///M guys thinking putting harman kordon out there? The EPS in the outgoing car is like a professional sound system. Or the power dome, you can barely see it from the driver's seat, well maybe there is not much they can do about this simply because they can't just make it bigger just to make it bigger, but it's still a difference. Lastly, the introduction of black leather in a full leather option, what's up with that? The old car came with full leather in the color you ordered it. It wasn't half black half your color. These are to me features that were taken away from us and I am not making them up. I'm quite surprised nobody else has mentioned them.

One thing is not going to change and I don't want to be misunderstood. I like the new car and I will buy it unless there are disastrous issues with steering and the engine which I highly doubt and I am going to love driving it for the next 3 years. All I was trying to do was to provide my perspective for a different type of market which is a sedan M3 owner for some time in the market for something better who considered an M5 until recently. A lot of people who come and post here are single young guys or recently married and drive coupes or convertibles. Yes there are sedan folks but we are in the minority. I'm sure there'll be many people in my shoes who won't get the see the car and my review can prove to be valuable to them.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by RealStig

This car still feels inferior to the E60 M5, both in the areas of comfort and luxury. BMW made damn sure that there is enough plastic and lack of seat cushion and overall interior space that all other cars even the previous models still have a market

.

like I said before, your opinion is your opinion, and it is certainly valid and a lot more important than what I think.

that said, I just don't agree with you on what the m3 should be, and I also didn't have the same imprssions after seeing one in person.

I also think the interior f8x m3 destroys the e60 m5 in terms of styling and gives up zero in terms of luxury or materials. The f8x is far more modern and feels great. Contrast stitching, seat design, styling, new idrive etc....all big improvements in my book.

I want the m3 to remain what it always has been. A good price point / value that is affordable while delivering sports car like performance and handling with good interior quality. To me, it has raised the bar on every single level while staying at a reasonable price point. It will be a performance weapon and the m3 interior is as nice as I could ever want in a car. JMO.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

like I said before, your opinion is your opinion, and it is certainly valid and a lot more important than what I think.

that said, I just don't agree with you on what the m3 should be, and I also didn't have the same imprssions after seeing one in person.

I also think the interior f8x m3 destroys the e60 m5 in terms of styling and gives up zero in terms of luxury or materials. The f8x is far more modern and feels great. Contrast stitching, seat design, styling, new idrive etc....all big improvements in my book.

I want the m3 to remain what it always has been. A good price point / value that is affordable while delivering sports car like performance and handling with good interior quality. To me, it has raised the bar on every single level while staying at a reasonable price point. It will be a performance weapon and the m3 interior is as nice as I could ever want in a car. JMO.

You are right and I think where I am wrong is the whole affordability aspects of it. You see, for a lot of people who can only afford a 65-70k car, this is the best thing for them and in that price point, it is indeed the best car. If were to factor in the price, I'd probably remove half of the negative points I raised, that being said, I can afford a far more expensive car than this, there just isn't one to my liking. I almost bought an M5, but it is just too heavy. As I said in my review, I wish BMW made a car that is the size of the M3 but with an M6 interior and priced it 20-25k above the M3. I would easily order one tomorrow.

On the other hand, there are valid points I raised which have got nothing to do with the luxury or size aspects of the car, which in my view were indeed better in the old car or bad choices in the new car. The sound system, 50/50 color choice in the leather, nonadjustable back seat headrests, the leather in the seats wrinkle way too easy, no arm rest in the backseat, power dome, and plastic center console. I don't understand why BMW went in the direction they did for these (well maybe power dome not so much as they had no choice, but I loved the current power dome and how it looked like from the driver's seat!).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by RealStig

Yes, they have offered the CPO my car but it's going to cost me another 3.5k and it is the basic warranty they provide.

...

But it's not just that, if I keep this car, I need to take care of it, that's a lot of oil changes, tires, fix this and fix that. It is showing age. The seats, the doors. I don't want to do any of this.

Fair enough, and that's more than understandable. I just wanted to mention it as an alternative because you had made the point about the necessity component of buying the new M3.

I think of all the negative things I have mentioned in my review, only one was picked out. There are other aspects of the new car which I think is a step backwards

...

These are to me features that were taken away from us and I am not making them up. I'm quite surprised nobody else has mentioned them.

Sure. Those are all good points.

I think those things are not generating as much discussion because they are more understood, and in the end most of us agree that the new car does bring some tradeoffs in these more subjective areas. Like with every new generation of 3 Series, not everything is improved upon, but typically the overall package is a step forward.

But dinging the car for what many will see as not being something that it was even intended to be in the first place is bound to generate more controversy and hence more discussion.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I am driving a sedan which finished production 2 years ago. I'm not sure what current M3 you are referring to. My warranty will be over very soon.

What your saying just doesn't add up, who spends 70k + on a car that doesn't impress them? I think you need to rethink your priorities if all you care about the BMW brand... I saw the cars in person, I compared them to many other cars at the show with the same price tag and I was impressed with interior and exterior and the power output advertised by BMW. Now I have to drive it to be sure but I have a pretty good idea that it will not disappoint.

[caneaddict]

If you're looking for a more highly spec'd sports car 2+2 at the price point of a M5/M6 - have you considered the Porsche 991? A very well equipped 991S with sport chrono / full leather / sport exhaust etc is about $115k and dealers are giving 5% - 10% discounts. A slightly used 2013 is mid 90's and 2012 low 80's.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by caneaddict

If you're looking for a more highly spec'd sports car 2+2 at the price point of a M5/M6 - have you considered the Porsche 991? A very well equipped 991S with sport chrono / full leather / sport exhaust etc is about $115k and dealers are giving 5% - 10% discounts. A slightly used 2013 is mid 90's and 2012 low 80's.

He needs a sedan