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      05-21-2014, 10:51 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
The GTS shipped with Corsas and I believe that is what was used, but can't guarantee the latter. Those P-zeros are much less compromised than PSSs
Ah yes. So these are akin to cup+ to my understanding. Means the GTS vs. F8x should be about a dead heat with both on the same rubber.

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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Note that from what I read in the article, they have not actually tested the cars on the 'ring, they only refer to what various BMW test drivers were able to achieve.
Quite possible, but still worth something as they are a very reputable mag that wouldn't throw marketing promises around without some confidence in them. We'll see what it does in the Supertest - I think it's going to be a low 7:5x even if it doesn't hit 7:50 in this case.
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      05-21-2014, 11:07 PM   #90
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For a moment lets forget the M4. Which sedans have better than a 7:50 time? Can't be many out there.
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      05-21-2014, 11:14 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
For a moment lets forget the M4. Which sedans have better than a 7:50 time? Can't be many out there.
As far as I know only the Panny Turbo S get close to that at 7:52. It's likely faster though than what the official time will be for the M3 but still...

I always say that the E90 M3 is IMO the best enthusiast sedan ever made. I don't think ( hope? ) that the F80 will be that far behind overall and ahead in outright performance.
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      05-21-2014, 11:52 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
For a moment lets forget the M4. Which sedans have better than a 7:50 time? Can't be many out there.
+1. once you get pass a certain time around the ring, evey second faster is a huge improvement. so 10 to 15 seconds faster is pretty amazing. the reviews werent joking about it being the best dd/track m3 ever.
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      05-21-2014, 11:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
As far as I know only the Panny Turbo S get close to that at 7:52. It's likely faster though than what the official time will be for the M3 but still...
Pretty amazing if you ask me. Right?

Now, if we then go back and look at the two door cars, which ones that share the entire platform and all chassis components with a sedan are faster than the M4? Few, no?

So then, when you consider that perspective, things make much more sense. The reason an M4 isn't able to keep pace with a 911 S, C7, R8, GTR or whatever else is out there is because it's not a sports car. Instead it's simply one of the world's fastest, highest performing sedans... with two doors removed - and that's it. Nothing else (well, ok, CF boot lid) is done to the car to optimize it for the coupe form factor such as, glaringly, not taking out the backseat or at least reducing it to toddler-only size, not shrinking the passenger compartment to capitalize on such a revision, and indeed not shortening the car to take advantage of such a configuration either. People tend to forget that.
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      05-22-2014, 01:09 AM   #94
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I guess if I want a sedan I will buy a sedan...not one with 2 doors removed.

If I drive something that is 2 doors with sales pitch around it's great performance then I would call it a sports car.

That's my perspective.

The execution might be different between Porsche or BMW M but at the end there are similar objectives and I am sure driver enjoyment would be a key one and this time the journalist declared Porsche victory.
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      05-22-2014, 01:54 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Several M employees mentioned 7:55 was their testing "target" during the early release days , even Berman himself did in one interview . Then the story that a factory driver did do a 7:55 came out in multiple magazines .
BTW, the 918 Spyder "only" managed a 7min 13s time in the Supertest. Porsche have claimed a sub 7 min time...

Sport Auto managed to do 8 laps in the 918. 2 acclimatisation laps, 5 laps with traffic and then the final lap where they made the 7min 13s time.

So, it's normal that the Sport Auto lap times are slower. Will be interesting to see how fast it is in the Supertest and how much faster than the E92 it really is.
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      05-22-2014, 03:01 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Sport Auto will likely be 7:55-7:58. So a decent time…would have expected more given the underrated 430 hp and 406 tq.
That would be the time range of the most plausible szenario ... an there is no chance that the M4 goes unterrated into the "Supertest" - since 2014 SPORTAUTO conducts extensive tests on the Supertest vehicles - including dynamometer and camber measurement.

And as for the M3 GTS Supertest must be said very clearly that SPORTAUTO assumes, that an faster Supertest NOS round with the M3 GTS would have been possible ... only settings would have to be made ​​to the suspension, which was not set optimal from BMW for driving on the Nordschleife - but such adjustments contradict the Supertest test criteria !!!
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      05-22-2014, 03:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by BlackCobra08 View Post
So the iDrive system tells HP and TP but not boost? That's a bummer, so are most people going to get an aftermarket gauge and mount it somewhere? That's what I had to do on my STi, always made me uncomfortable that the vacuum line has to be cut into.
A little bit off-topic, but i had/have Awron display on my different BMWs (turbo and non-turbo engine). Awron display can show Boost value, engine coolant temp, oil temp, fuel pressures, transmission temp and other usefule engine datas. The picture, which i attached is Awron display installed at my 220d. I am sure that Awron will lunch their display for M3/M4 platform, if there is enough potential.

(I am working together with Awron to have a custom software for my Awron display installed on my heavily rebuilt e92 335i DCT).

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      05-22-2014, 06:15 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
For a moment lets forget the M4. Which sedans have better than a 7:50 time? Can't be many out there.
Panamera Turbo/S (diff class and price entirely, 4600 lbs car), probably the new c63 will. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Macan Turbo/S approaches these times as well and thats an SUV.

Im in agreement that for a car with 430 hp and a very good power to weight, the time is pretty poor, especially when you take into consideration that the tires are better too which correlate to some of the time saved.
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      05-22-2014, 07:10 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
That GTS time is lacking. A barely modified E92 M3 can lap 7:36 BTG. Even if you added the 1.5 km from the straight finish which is the fastest part of the track it would still be under 7:50. Bottom line 7:50 is disappointing for an 2014 M car.
And if you asked marketing to write that article they couldn't better sell half truths and sugarcoated compromises. M cars are never bought by the "layman who cannot tell a difference between a V8, V10 and an I6 turbo sound". That is utter nonsense and gives away the agenda of this publication...
And to be serious about NBR times they should compare a used 2011-2012 GT-R which costs about the same as an M4 and ends up way ahead.
That's the current reference, not an M3 CSL time.


BMW M3 E92 - BTG 7:36
The car:
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(No turbocharger, No supercharger, No stroker engine just the OEM E92 M3 S65)
The Camaro that did a 7min 42s time took 26s to cover the distance from Gantry to Bridge. So you should add approximately 25s to a BTG lap time to get a full lap.

7m 36s + 25s = 8m 01s full lap

And that time was on Sport Cup tires, KW Clubsport suspension, lightweight seats and custom exhaust.

The Sport Auto 8:05 time looks even better now...
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      05-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
So, it's normal that the Sport Auto lap times are slower. Will be interesting to see how fast it is in the Supertest and how much faster than the E92 it really is.
We need to keep in mind that BMW never specified any actual 'ring lap times. IIRC, only "15 seconds faster than the E92" has been quoted.

I believe the 7:50 time we see everywhere simply comes from decucing the 15 seconds from the Sport Auto time of the E9X.

Now, the big question, is the BMW 15 seconds with the standard PS2 fitted to the E9X or the optional PSC+ ...
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      05-22-2014, 07:46 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
We need to keep in mind that BMW never specified any actual 'ring lap times. IIRC, only "15 seconds faster than the E92" has been quoted.

I believe the 7:50 time we see everywhere simply comes from decucing the 15 seconds from the Sport Auto time of the E9X.

Now, the big question, is the BMW 15 seconds with the standard PS2 fitted to the E9X or the optional PSC+ ...
The E92 Sport Auto time was with the standard 19" PSC +

The article on the F8x says that the M3/4 has set nearly identical 7:50 times with various M test drivers. So they are definitely referring to times set by BMW, not just a 15s deduction from the E92 Supertest time.
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      05-22-2014, 07:59 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The E92 Sport Auto time was with the standard 19" PSC +

The article on the F8x says that the M3/4 has set nearly identical 7:50 times with various M test drivers. So they are definitely referring to times set by BMW, not just a 15s deduction from the E92 Supertest time.
You are right, I just re-read the article, it does mention different BMW test drivers doing 7:50 times. I even said so myself in an earlier post. to myslef.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-22-2014 at 09:47 AM..
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      05-22-2014, 08:10 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
The execution might be different between Porsche or BMW M but at the end there are similar objectives and I am sure driver enjoyment would be a key one and this time the journalist declared Porsche victory.
The objectives are similar right up until you look at the business cases which are completely different and indeed it's why we can enjoy the BMW for a much lower price than the Porsche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Panamera Turbo/S (diff class and price entirely, 4600 lbs car), probably the new c63 will. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Macan Turbo/S approaches these times as well and thats an SUV.
So one product and a couple mights/maybes. As I said, not many.

BMW has one of the fastest sedans in the world and gets dinged pretty hard for it when measured against coupes and sports cars. Just how big of criticism, then, do the rest if the automakers deserve for not even being in the game? If you don't even make it to the starting line you get a pass?
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      05-22-2014, 10:14 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
You have hardly shaken the main points: 7:50 for a 2014 M car is unacceptable when for around the same price tag you can get a very low mileage 2012 GT-R (<1,500 miles for $81k for example) that will ridicule the M4 with a 7:24 (full) lap time. That said i'd still get a E92 M3 over both those cars.

And for your information the F8x M4 time improvement over the E9x M3 is less than the E9x improvement over its E46 predecessor (non CSL).

This article is on the defensive on many points and sounds like marketing. In 2014 it's time for legitimate M4 reviews to start comparing to the 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 GT-R especially since M motorsport has gone turbo. But this car does not stand a chance to give a run to the competition. And wait to see what's coming out in 2015 from other brands... Better turbos.

Video of 2012 GT-R doing 7:24 full lap time
2012 GT-R on autotrader :

That's 26 seconds faster and I'm not talking about a 2014 nismo GT-R.
GTR is an astounding track car no doubt and if I wanted the fastest track car at this price point I might buy one, however if you want a car that can cross Europe in comfort and luxury carrying 4 or 5 people and their luggage and then turn in an impressive lap the GTR fails. M3 is a fantastic all round car, that is the point that you are missing.
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      05-22-2014, 10:21 AM   #105
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I disagree with the comments that the M4/M3 are just fast sedans and the M4 is a sedan with the doors cut off. The e30 and e46 didn't even have sedan versions. The M3 has always been a two door sports coupe that sometimes has an extra two doors added. The excuse that the M cars are just fast daily drivers or fast sedans with doors cut off is ridiculous. BMW decided to go the way of profits and M Division became about marketing instead of Motorsport and everyone knows. BMW is the only manufacturer making grand tourers while everyone else is making the most raw and performance oriented sports cars ever. When the best attributes of M Divisions halo sports car is that it's a good daily driver and can fit groceries and kids easily then you know M is "Motorsport" in name only. There are plenty of non-M high torque and good mpg grocery getters that can still be fun on the track occasionally and BMW could have kept M cars as actual sports car.
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      05-22-2014, 10:33 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I disagree with the comments that the M4/M3 are just fast sedans and the M4 is a sedan with the doors cut off. The e30 and e46 didn't even have sedan versions. The M3 has always been a two door sports coupe that sometimes has an extra two doors added. The excuse that the M cars are just fast daily drivers or fast sedans with doors cut off is ridiculous. BMW decided to go the way of profits and M Division became about marketing instead of Motorsport and everyone knows. BMW is the only manufacturer making grand tourers while everyone else is making the most raw and performance oriented sports cars ever. When the best attributes of M Divisions halo sports car is that it's a good daily driver and can fit groceries and kids easily then you know M is "Motorsport" in name only. There are plenty of non-M high torque and good mpg grocery getters that can still be fun on the track occasionally and BMW could have kept M cars as actual sports car.
And you just bought your 2nd heavy E92M3. You must HATE THOSE COMPROMISES. Since they have been in place for some time.

What M3 competitor is "raw"? The Merc with the really nice auto transmission?

Another classic case of buyer's remorse.
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      05-22-2014, 10:45 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keto View Post
And you just bought your 2nd heavy E92M3. You must HATE THOSE COMPROMISES. Since they have been in place for some time.

What M3 competitor is "raw"? The Merc with the really nice auto transmission?

Another classic case of buyer's remorse.
Doesn't seem like buyer's remorse to me at all. I think the major point was that the M brand is diluted. I think most anyone would agree there.
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      05-22-2014, 10:49 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I disagree with the comments that the M4/M3 are just fast sedans and the M4 is a sedan with the doors cut off. The e30 and e46 didn't even have sedan versions. The M3 has always been a two door sports coupe that sometimes has an extra two doors added. The excuse that the M cars are just fast daily drivers or fast sedans with doors cut off is ridiculous. BMW decided to go the way of profits and M Division became about marketing instead of Motorsport and everyone knows. BMW is the only manufacturer making grand tourers while everyone else is making the most raw and performance oriented sports cars ever. When the best attributes of M Divisions halo sports car is that it's a good daily driver and can fit groceries and kids easily then you know M is "Motorsport" in name only. There are plenty of non-M high torque and good mpg grocery getters that can still be fun on the track occasionally and BMW could have kept M cars as actual sports car.
I disagree with you. Most cars would qualify as GT cars.

When you talk about the GT3, the 458 Speciale, and the likes of those, yes, they are sports/exotics but the regular version of them are GT cars...they just happen to be some of the best cars in the world.
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      05-22-2014, 10:51 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I disagree with the comments that the M4/M3 are just fast sedans and the M4 is a sedan with the doors cut off.
You are welcome to disagree but to me that is exactly what they are once you strip away the marketing department. The good news is that they are among the best at filling these roles in the world. It's nothing to sneeze at.

Quote:
The e30 and e46 didn't even have sedan versions.
Hence why I made the comment in 2014 and not in 1994 or 2004.

Still though, the fact is that even without the sedan, the M3 coupes of yore were still based on the coupified sedan that was the the 3 Series "ci". It's just that now we do have the M3 sedan to clearly send home the message that, yep, it turns out that putting the same chassis components on the actual sedan doesn't change the performance equation. You can replace the four doors with two doors and even slope the roof back for that racy look if you must. You may mask the humble underpinnings to the untrained eye, but you won't hide it from the stopwatch.
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      05-22-2014, 10:53 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
When the best attributes of M Divisions halo sports car is that it's a good daily driver and can fit groceries and kids easily then you know M is "Motorsport" in name only. There are plenty of non-M high torque and good mpg grocery getters that can still be fun on the track occasionally and BMW could have kept M cars as actual sports car.
Hmm but surely the best attribute is that this is THE fastest M3 ever 0-60 likely 3.7s!! All reviews say it handles superbly too, but that it doesn'tsound quite as great as the V8 previous engine.

So for being the fastest straight line and track M3 ever, this car and BMW M division have sold out? I feel the opposite they are to be commended for managing to combine staggering performance with improved efficiency and emissions that keeps my tax and fuel costs down.

Sorry if I'm late to the party and missing your point, I get that it's not as emotional for some but it's a much faster package overall and we're accusing it of not being a sports car anymore
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