European Auto Source (EAS)
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-31-2016, 02:27 PM   #45
dmk08
Gone Fishin’
dmk08's Avatar
United_States
7315
Rep
12,125
Posts

Drives: Walks
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (19)

I agree with most of what Nick says in this video.

M2 does look a tiny bit better up front but mostly a wash.

M4 looks worlds better from the rear. Not even close IMO.

M2 interior is rubbish. That video makes it look even worse than when I saw it in person.

If you're on a budget M2 is the car to buy. But if you can expand up to the M4 its an overall better car. Even in stripper version.
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 07:40 AM   #46
JoeFromPA
Colonel
1791
Rep
2,995
Posts

Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SE PA

iTrader: (0)

I don't understand the weight - the car is meaningfully smaller in every dimension. It has less cooling than the S55 (which adds alot of weight in materials and fluids).

Let me put it another way: A 911 is similar in size and has a higher level of interior quality and now has a 3.0 liter turbo. A 911 is 1" shorter in overall length (though 10" shorter wheelbase, but still, dimension wise it's near identical.

A 911 weighs 3,153 pounds according to published specs with PDK. Why does an M2 weigh 300 pounds more? Where is that weight going? I can understand perhaps 150 pounds more simply due to lower cost materials. But 300 pounds for a near identical setup (and with one fewer turbo too!)...
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 08:09 AM   #47
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
10057
Rep
8,567
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA
I don't understand the weight - the car is meaningfully smaller in every dimension. It has less cooling than the S55 (which adds alot of weight in materials and fluids).

Let me put it another way: A 911 is similar in size and has a higher level of interior quality and now has a 3.0 liter turbo. A 911 is 1" shorter in overall length (though 10" shorter wheelbase, but still, dimension wise it's near identical.

A 911 weighs 3,153 pounds according to published specs with PDK. Why does an M2 weigh 300 pounds more? Where is that weight going? I can understand perhaps 150 pounds more simply due to lower cost materials. But 300 pounds for a near identical setup (and with one fewer turbo too!)...
A 911 is a rear engine car with newrly everything located in the rear... this allows for less piping, plumbing and exhaust... no need to pull items from the front to the rear... or at least I think that helps.
__________________
2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
Appreciate 1
F831355.50
      09-01-2016, 09:49 AM   #48
JoeFromPA
Colonel
1791
Rep
2,995
Posts

Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SE PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
A 911 is a rear engine car with newrly everything located in the rear... this allows for less piping, plumbing and exhaust... no need to pull items from the front to the rear... or at least I think that helps.
Ok, that's fair, driveshaft and exhaust weights would be lower (i think those are the only items traveling front to back that would be far shorter). What's that, 40-50 pounds (since it's not mufflers/headers and it's just the tubing/ujoint of the driveshaft being cut).

On the flip side, the 911 has to run oil & coolant tubing all the way to the front.
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 10:50 AM   #49
Matt_B
Lieutenant
153
Rep
412
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Lancaster, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Ok, that's fair, driveshaft and exhaust weights would be lower (i think those are the only items traveling front to back that would be far shorter). What's that, 40-50 pounds (since it's not mufflers/headers and it's just the tubing/ujoint of the driveshaft being cut).

On the flip side, the 911 has to run oil & coolant tubing all the way to the front.
A 911 also sits at a much higher price point. I don't know the answer but it seems conceivable to me that even a base 911 makes more use out of materials like carbon fiber and aluminum.

I agree that you would expect there to be more of a difference between the 2 series and 3/4, though.
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 05:50 PM   #50
m4282
Lieutenant
119
Rep
423
Posts

Drives: Tanzanite Blue M4 w/Leather
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_B
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Ok, that's fair, driveshaft and exhaust weights would be lower (i think those are the only items traveling front to back that would be far shorter). What's that, 40-50 pounds (since it's not mufflers/headers and it's just the tubing/ujoint of the driveshaft being cut).

On the flip side, the 911 has to run oil & coolant tubing all the way to the front.
A 911 also sits at a much higher price point. I don't know the answer but it seems conceivable to me that even a base 911 makes more use out of materials like carbon fiber and aluminum.

I agree that you would expect there to be more of a difference between the 2 series and 3/4, though.
Maybe they have lighter seats. ?

Or perhaps it's just the abundant use of plastic or maybe the glass is thicker in the m2
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 08:06 PM   #51
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
3439
Rep
4,980
Posts

Drives: 992 C4S
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_B
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Ok, that's fair, driveshaft and exhaust weights would be lower (i think those are the only items traveling front to back that would be far shorter). What's that, 40-50 pounds (since it's not mufflers/headers and it's just the tubing/ujoint of the driveshaft being cut).

On the flip side, the 911 has to run oil & coolant tubing all the way to the front.
A 911 also sits at a much higher price point. I don't know the answer but it seems conceivable to me that even a base 911 makes more use out of materials like carbon fiber and aluminum.

I agree that you would expect there to be more of a difference between the 2 series and 3/4, though.
Maybe they have lighter seats. ?

Or perhaps it's just the abundant use of plastic or maybe the glass is thicker in the m2
Ha, definitely not the glass BMW uses
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2016, 08:24 PM   #52
minn19
Lieutenant General
minn19's Avatar
13970
Rep
10,061
Posts

Drives: 24 Z06, 23 CT4VBW, 22 PFinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Funny, everybody is saying what a bang for the buck the M2 is and one of my local dealers has one in stock. They are asking 67k for it. I can't imagine paying M3/4 money for this thing.
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 08:55 AM   #53
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
3439
Rep
4,980
Posts

Drives: 992 C4S
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Jesus, how much of a markup did they put on it?
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 08:59 AM   #54
dmk08
Gone Fishin’
dmk08's Avatar
United_States
7315
Rep
12,125
Posts

Drives: Walks
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Funny, everybody is saying what a bang for the buck the M2 is and one of my local dealers has one in stock. They are asking 67k for it. I can't imagine paying M3/4 money for this thing.
Thats close to what I paid for my m4 zcp
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 09:03 AM   #55
minn19
Lieutenant General
minn19's Avatar
13970
Rep
10,061
Posts

Drives: 24 Z06, 23 CT4VBW, 22 PFinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
Thats close to what I paid for my m4 zcp
I believe it and would definitely pick a ZCP M3/4 over an M2 for almost the same money.
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 11:34 AM   #56
pikkagtr
Go Spurs Go
pikkagtr's Avatar
United_States
3847
Rep
2,867
Posts

Drives: 2022 GR Zupra
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I don't know how they could have made a better car for the price to be honest... the big issue in the USA is that these cars are all too closely priced to each other and we are the key market for nearly all of them. In the rest of the world there is a huge price difference between a 3 and 5 series or in this case an M3/M4 and M2.

I would have preferred the M2 get a CF roof, more dct settings, M buttons, real M mirrors, nice Nappa leather and a larger turbo in the N55... but, then what? This car would have cost identical to an M3... There are really only two options not to cannibalize sales here, make the car like they did or raise the price of the M3 and M4... the latter wouldn't work well for the business... in other words they did what they had to and to be perfectly honest I think they made a great entry level car for a decent price... its nowhere near an M3 or M4, but it does what its supposed to.

Options...options...options
What M2 would I buy?
Give me M seats/ same CF bits as F80 and full leather/Merino
BUT......---->>>It would need the B58 and not the N55
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 01:02 PM   #57
MPerformance211
Banned
MPerformance211's Avatar
United_States
274
Rep
439
Posts

Drives: 2013 981 Boxster S; 3 pedals
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: northern hemisphere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Funny, everybody is saying what a bang for the buck the M2 is and one of my local dealers has one in stock. They are asking 67k for it. I can't imagine paying M3/4 money for this thing.
I bought my former M4 for $1K less than that and I had extended (not full) Merino leather, DCT, Adaptive Susp and 19" wheels.

$67K for an M2 is no bargain at all.
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 01:38 PM   #58
KevinGS
Colonel
3287
Rep
2,143
Posts

Drives: Past 2015 M4, Current 2013 M3
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPerformance211 View Post
I bought my former M4 for $1K less than that and I had extended (not full) Merino leather, DCT, Adaptive Susp and 19" wheels.

$67K for an M2 is no bargain at all.
MPerf211, that's one impressive list of cars you've owned. It will be interesting to get your overall take of the M4 once you move on to something else....and looking at that long list, you are most certainly moving on to something else much sooner than later. hahaha
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2016, 07:47 PM   #59
MPerformance211
Banned
MPerformance211's Avatar
United_States
274
Rep
439
Posts

Drives: 2013 981 Boxster S; 3 pedals
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: northern hemisphere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinGS View Post
MPerf211, that's one impressive list of cars you've owned. It will be interesting to get your overall take of the M4 once you move on to something else....and looking at that long list, you are most certainly moving on to something else much sooner than later. hahaha
HaHa. I know, I know...its actually embarrassing sometimes when my friends ask me "what are you driving now?.....I mean its been a whole 10-12 months"

Actually, I was not even looking to get rid of the M4 until the owner of the company I work for/partner with leased us both company Tundra Crewmax 1794's. I drive the Tundra 4 days a week to work so the M4 saw very little time. And as much as I loved the car, I said from the get go that I would never own as a fun/weekend type car as I think the car is a performance oriented daily driver type of car. So I traded it for the 981 BoxsterS. The 981BS is the most fun car I have owned (while not even close to being the fastest). I just freakin love this thing. NA with a true 6 speed manual.

Would not own anything else at this time for a perfromance daily driver car than the M3/M4....it's that good (save for the sound). The current M4 with the sound of the E92M would be tits.

Sorry to take up space here with my reply...........back to the topic at hand
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2016, 09:35 AM   #60
minn19
Lieutenant General
minn19's Avatar
13970
Rep
10,061
Posts

Drives: 24 Z06, 23 CT4VBW, 22 PFinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPerformance211 View Post
I bought my former M4 for $1K less than that and I had extended (not full) Merino leather, DCT, Adaptive Susp and 19" wheels.

$67K for an M2 is no bargain at all.
I did a little more research and the car has MPerformance exhaust with CF tips and a CF diffuser. It also has black grills and side gills. There may be more as well. Any way at least you get something and it isn't all markup. I still wouldn't pick it over an M3/4 at that money.

I'm sure it'll go quick though as there are not many around on lots. If anybody here is interested here is the link to it.

http://www.motorwerksbmw.com/bmw-m2/
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2016, 12:59 PM   #61
DieGrüneHölle
Colonel
1309
Rep
2,787
Posts

Drives: M
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: bmw

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I did a little more research and the car has MPerformance exhaust with CF tips and a CF diffuser. It also has black grills and side gills. There may be more as well. Any way at least you get something and it isn't all markup. I still wouldn't pick it over an M3/4 at that money.

I'm sure it'll go quick though as there are not many around on lots. If anybody here is interested here is the link to it.

http://www.motorwerksbmw.com/bmw-m2/
From what I can see in the pics it has:

CF front splitters - $1,420
CF mirror caps - $695
CF rear diffuser - $1,250
CF side aearo - $1,375
Black kidneys - $410
Black side vents - $230
Stainless pedals - $260
M perf exhaust - $2,540
Carbon tips - $1350


So...$9,530 in M perf parts. Like you said could have more, just not seen in pics.
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2016, 01:19 PM   #62
minn19
Lieutenant General
minn19's Avatar
13970
Rep
10,061
Posts

Drives: 24 Z06, 23 CT4VBW, 22 PFinder
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
From what I can see in the pics it has:

CF front splitters - $1,420
CF mirror caps - $695
CF rear diffuser - $1,250
CF side aearo - $1,375
Black kidneys - $410
Black side vents - $230
Stainless pedals - $260
M perf exhaust - $2,540
Carbon tips - $1350


So...$9,530 in M perf parts. Like you said could have more, just not seen in pics.
Nice work! Now if one could lease that at a decent residual you could enjoy a lot of that stuff at a much cheaper price for a few years.
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2016, 01:54 PM   #63
Bahn360Photo
Fitness Gene
Bahn360Photo's Avatar
United_States
1108
Rep
2,409
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SoFlo

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2006 bmw m5  [10.00]
2016 bmw z4 35is  [7.50]
2000 bmw m5  [10.00]
2018 BMW M4  [10.00]
1987 BMW 325 Conver ...  [10.00]
no drag race?
__________________

Effective 11 Min Home Workouts?????
No equipment?????
20 years of experience
Spartan Race winner
PROtrainer!
Click the link??
https://www.youtube.com/c/FitnessGene
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2016, 07:46 PM   #64
dasblack
Second Lieutenant
79
Rep
200
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Southwest FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Funny, everybody is saying what a bang for the buck the M2 is and one of my local dealers has one in stock. They are asking 67k for it. I can't imagine paying M3/4 money for this thing.
Paid $58k out the door for my M2
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2016, 06:28 PM   #65
tke743
Major
tke743's Avatar
United_States
739
Rep
1,066
Posts

Drives: LBB M2 Comp
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Massachusetts

iTrader: (5)

Nick says they are similar. My take.

Yes they are SIMILAR. Not the same. I owned an F80 and own an M2 now. My new ZCP F80 comes in October.

Straight line, no contest. The F80 is faster, by a bunch.
Cornering is where the M2 makes it's money. It will corner harder than a pre 58.3 upgraded F80, probably about the same as a 58.3 Upgraded F80 and can't keep with a ZCP F80.

We see this in the test results. Short technical track with an older F8x the F8x loses. The ZCP F8x wins. On longer tracks with appreciable straights even the older F8x's will pull away.

The M2 wants to rotate more quickly than the ZCP F8x, and is more controllable when it does (It is the right size, aka the size of an e46.)

The M2's steering is phenomenal! Almost as good as my old 330i ZHP. The hardware is exactly the same in the F8x, so it's software. We need to figure out how to code the F87 steering into the F8x. There is no dead spot on center like I have found in all F8x's I've driven.

The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the F8x. A ZCP F8x at 9/10 is just as fast as the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the F8x you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't. It's just an easier car to drive, and drive fast. (Please note the lack of pictures of M2's wrapped around trees like we saw with the F8x's.) It really is the throwback people say it is.

My wife told me that if I kept the M2 I was sleeping on the couch, and buying a new couch was a serious consideration. The final reasons I won't keep the M2 are.

F8x Seats are much more comfortable to me. I'm just over 6 feet, but with a very long torso. So to a seat back I'm like a 6 foot 4 inch guy. The seats don't support me and become painful over longer drives. (A few reviewers have noted this too.) Yes, this complaint makes me old...

I have kids and NEED 4 doors.

If BMW makes the M2 Gran Coupe, and it drives like the M2, I will ditch the ZCP F80 and pay to have a F80 seat spliced in there. The M2 is that good.

Things I thought would bother me on the M2 but didn't.

The rotated seat - Notice it all the time and I don't care
Lack of Heads Up - Don't care (this really surprised me.)
Crappy leather - Notice it all the time and I don't care
Non-adjustable suspension - Don't care, it is like Goldilocks and just right.
Lack of M buttons on the steering wheel - Don't care (I just put into sport+ when I get in)

Things that bother me in the M2 that I care about

Painful seats (If tall)
High seating position (It feels like an SUV compared to the F8x, and is the same seating height as my wife's 328 Sport Wagon)
You CANNOT see the gauges in the daylight.
I dislike the "open weave" carbon trim, this one strangely bugs me to the point of distraction.
The F8x gets attention from BMW guys, the M2 gets attention from boy racers. I have yet to come to a light (in the M2) with a subaru that doesn't want to race.

So if BMW is listening, make the M2 GC and let us have the better seats (we will pay for them). I don't care about the rest, if the car handles like this. The people who say it isn't a "Real M Car" haven't spent much time driving it. Feel free to flame away.
__________________
Formerly - "That Guy" in the purple BMW

Last edited by tke743; 09-13-2016 at 08:20 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2016, 07:23 PM   #66
ASAP
Major General
ASAP's Avatar
10057
Rep
8,567
Posts

Drives: '23 X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
Nick says they are similar. My take.

Yes they are SIMILAR. Not the same. I owned an F80 and own an M2 now. My new ZCP F80 comes in October.

Straight line, no contest. The F80 is faster, by a bunch.
Cornering is where the M2 makes it's money. It will corner harder than a pre 58.3 upgraded F80, probably about the same as a 58.3 Upgraded F80 and can't keep with a ZCP F80.

We see this in the test results. Short technical track with an older F8x the F8x loses. The ZCP F8x wins. On longer tracks with appreciable straights even the older F8x's will pull away.

The M2 wants to rotate more quickly than the ZCP F8x, and is more controllable when it does (It is the right size, aka the size of an e46.)

The M2's steering is phenomenal! Almost as good as my old 330i ZHP. The hardware is exactly the same in the F8x, so it's software. We need to figure out how to code the F87 steering into the F8x. There is no dead spot on center like I have found in all F8x's I've driven.

The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the F8x. A ZCP F8x at 9/10 is just as fast as the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the F8x you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't. It's just an easier car to drive, and drive fast. (Please note the lack of pictures of M2's wrapped around trees like we saw with the F8x's.) It really is the throwback people say it is.

My wife told me that if I kept the M2 I was sleeping on the couch, and buying a new couch was a serious consideration. The final reasons I won't keep the M2 are.

F8x Seats are much more comfortable to me. I'm just over 6 feet, but with a very long torso. So to a seat back I'm like a 6 foot 4 inch guy. The seats don't support me and become painful over longer drives. (A few reviewers have noted this too.) Yes, this complaint makes me old...

I have kids and NEED 4 doors.

If BMW makes the M2 Gran Coupe, and it drives like the M2, I will ditch the ZCP F80 and pay to have a F80 seat sliced in there. The M2 is that good.

Things I thought would bother me on the M2 but didn't.

The rotated seat - Notice it all the time and I don't care
Lack of Heads Up - Don't care (this really surprised me.)
Crappy leather - Notice it all the time and I don't care
Non-adjustable suspension - Don't care, it is like Goldilocks and just right.
Lack of M buttons on the steering wheel - Don't care (I just put into sport+ when I get in)

Things that bother me in the M2 that I care about

Painful seats (If tall)
High seating position (It feels like an SUV compared to the F8x, and is the same seating height as my wife's 328 Sport Wagon)
You CANNOT see the gauges in the daylight.
I dislike the "open weave" carbon trim, this one strangely bugs me to the point of distraction.
The F8x gets attention from BMW guys, the M2 gets attention from boy racers. I have yet to come to a light (in the M2) with a subaru that doesn't want to race.

So if BMW is listening, make the M2 GC and let us have the better seats (we will pay for them). I don't care about the rest, if the car handles like this. The people who say it isn't "Real M Car" haven't spent much time driving it. Feel free to flame away.
Having driven both cars on the track, I would say the bolded is dead on correct.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:11 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST