M4 vs 911 Track Battle at Anglesey (EVO)

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by trinim3

This is going to sound ridiculous I know but people give the average professional race car driver too much credit.

Many 'pros' didn't get there because they had exceptional talent, they got there b/c they had money. Most drivers actually pay to drive the race cars, few actually get paid. Being a pro driver means that you are good at being consistent - it doesn't mean you can put down the fastest lap time. You mess with the inputs that make them consistent and the average ones aren't going to be that great. The best ones can drive anything and adapt but like anyone you build habits based on how a car reacts. Race cars are set up to be completely neutral while street cars are setup to understeer at turn-in for safety reason. In a lot of ways the habits you develop driving a well-tuned race car are counter-intuitive to what you'd do with a street car at the limit.

I suspect the driver in this case is used to having a balanced car with grip off the corners. He even admitted it himself that the M4's lack of traction caught him by surprise --- that shouldn't happen with a driver who is in tune with the car. Now he probably adapted to it quicker than most of us could, but clearly the M4 didn't suit his driving style while the 911 did. And I suspect that will be the case for most drivers, pro or not.

That's how I feel about professional golf players like Bubba Watson, they didn't get there because of exceptional talent and consistency but just consistency and the sponsors' money ,pro equipment makes the game so much easier. heehee (kidding)

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by trinim3

This is going to sound ridiculous I know but people give the average professional race car driver too much credit.

Many 'pros' didn't get there because they had exceptional talent, they got there b/c they had money. Most drivers actually pay to drive the race cars, few actually get paid. Being a pro driver means that you are good at being consistent - it doesn't mean you can put down the fastest lap time. You mess with the inputs that make them consistent and the average ones aren't going to be that great. The best ones can drive anything and adapt but like anyone you build habits based on how a car reacts. Race cars are set up to be completely neutral while street cars are setup to understeer at turn-in for safety reason. In a lot of ways the habits you develop driving a well-tuned race car are counter-intuitive to what you'd do with a street car at the limit.

I suspect the driver in this case is used to having a balanced car with grip off the corners. He even admitted it himself that the M4's lack of traction caught him by surprise --- that shouldn't happen with a driver who is in tune with the car. Now he probably adapted to it quicker than most of us could, but clearly the M4 didn't suit his driving style while the 911 did. And I suspect that will be the case for most drivers, pro or not.

Yep it does sound completely ridiculous . Race cars are not set up to be completely neutral , they are actually set up to rotate a bit on corner entry so they can get back on the gas as soon as possible . This guy is a very good pro driver and the bottom line is the M4 is not a sports car . It's not set up to be fast on track it's set up to be fun ( tail happy)and be a great daily driver . The 991 is a better chassis and a purpose built sports car , so even with inferior p zeros and a lot less power it was faster in track . No surprise here , stop making excuses and maybe BMW will make a more track focused version of the M4 down the road .

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Yep it does sound completely ridiculous . Race cars are not set up to be completely neutral , they are actually set up to rotate a bit on corner entry so they can get back on the gas as soon as possible . This guy is a very good pro driver and the bottom line is the M4 is not a sports car . It's not set up to be fast on track it's set up to be fun ( tail happy)and be a great daily driver . The 991 is a better chassis and a purpose built sports car , so even with inferior p zeros and a lot less power it was faster in track . No surprise here , stop making excuses and maybe BMW will make a more track focused version of the M4 down the road .

On your first point if race cars are setup to slight oversteer on corner entry then that just proves that street cars and race cars are opposite. And I don't think you can make that claim definitively as it depends on the chassis and the driver's preferred driving style.

On your second point you and I are saying the exact same thing. I'm not making excuses one bit, I'm the one telling others to stop making excuses so BMW will build a better car. The 911 is the better track car fair and square. My point is that it's not that easy for anyone (pro driver or not) to jump from cars with completely different handing characteristics and extract the best from it in a few laps. The race car driver even admitted that himself. Give him more seat time in both cars and he'll go faster in both cars but I think his times in the 911are closer to the full potential whereas the delta in the M4 could see a bigger improvement.

[Judge Dredd]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

that is a base 3.4L Carrera w/350hp.

the best way to tell is the kick plates when he got into the car - they say Carrera vs. Carrera S.

this 911 was equipped w/sports chrono - which gives you electric motor mounts and also much better throttle mapping and gear shifting - esp with PDK.

the PCCB (carbon ceramic brakes) are also a welcome addition for non stop braking.

at the end of the day, the M3/4 is a 3/4 series that is juiced up vs. a sports car built from the ground up - the 911.

both cars serve different purposes. great comparison!

non-stop braking? what is this new technology!

[ny911]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

If you order the sport tail pipes you get the quad tips on the non S. That 911 is a non S with Sport PASM and the 20" wheels. This is a car that will be in the low $90k range. In my eyes a set of 295s out back of the M4 would probably have evened it out a tad.

Dave

The tested C2 does come with PSE, thats why it comes with quad tips.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

100%

Pss can't handle a 10-15 minute session in 90* + weather with a decent driver in a heavy car like an m3.

The driver in the evo video says the same thing. The pss get hot and greasy and game over. Zero traction , sliding everywhere.

I swapped out to re11 and worlds of differnce, and I'm not even that fast of a driver. Not one person I've ever met tracks on pss unless it's their first time, and they are just learning and it doesn't matter what tires you use.

Extreme summers >>> max performance summers on track. No comparison.

+1

I have been using RE-11A for close to two years now and they are phenomenal on street and track, in dry and wet (Watkins Glen track soaked for example).

I talked to several instructors and they said they would take RE-11 on any track over PSS. They preferred even Direzza over PSS.

[adc]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Race cars are not set up to be completely neutral , they are actually set up to rotate a bit on corner entry so they can get back on the gas as soon as possible . This guy is a very good pro driver and the bottom line is the M4 is not a sports car . It's not set up to be fast on track it's set up to be fun ( tail happy)and be a great daily driver .

+1.

But I think the M4 can easily be made as fast or faster. The 911 is lighter and has more grip. The M4 is more powerful, so IMO on wider tires it would easily shave 1 sec off the time, even on a tight track like that.

Going from stock PSS to 265/285 RS3 shaved 2 seconds on VIR and Shenandoah, for me. Back to back test on Shenandoah, no doubt.

YMMV.

[gmazet]

http://jalopnik.com/can-a-heavy-bmw-...t-r-1617506977

they just ran the M5 vs GTR for reference the M4 is half a second faster than the M5, and the GTR is in second on the leader board in the 116's

[clbmw]

I just watched this again whist reading the Evo site, his comments just really make me wonder what BMW could actually achieve if they put their engines and gearboxes into a dedicated sports/super car chassis...