Sportauto supertest Nurburgring and Hockenheim laptimes: 7.52 / 1:12.18 min

[Denk]

These cars are getting crazy fast! Pretty soon we'll need G-Suits to keep from passing out in turns...well, maybe in another lifetime.

[stressdoc]

Very cool to finally get corroboration on quantitative stats!
Thanks for posting. Track a bit chilly. Optimal conditions might get a 7:4x time. Just incredible how freaking fast cars have gotten.

[JustChris]

Great lap time and in between some impressive cars on the all time list.

3 pages in .... and all positive comments what's going on....is the car deemed 'ok' now by owners of other BMW models?

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

I got all the past sport auto test times for M3.

Hockenheim

E30 M3 Sport Evo 1.21.4
E36 M3 SMG 1.18.4
E46 M3 1.17.6
E46 M3 CSL 1.13.5
E92 M3 1.14.3
E92 M3 GTS 1.12.5
M4 1.12.8

F10 M5 1.13.4

Nordschleife

E30 M3 Sport Evo 8:50
E36 M3 SMG 8:35
E46 M3 8:22
E46 M3 CSL 7:50
E92 M3 8:05
E92 M3 GTS 7:49
M4 7:52

F10 M5 8:05

FYI: I put in M5's time because a lot of people seems like to throw F10 M5 into the mix.

I suggest you check again; whether all are of sport auto, the cars and the times.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bm323

I suggest you check again; whether all are of sport auto, the cars and the times.

http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/bm...n-2780549.html

Die BMW M3 Supertest-Messwerte im Wandel der Zeit

0-200-0 km/h (s) - Rundenzeit Nordschleife (min) - Durchschnitts- geschwindigkeit Nordschleife (km/h) - Rundenzeit Hockenheim (min)

BMW M3 (E30) 9/2010 34,3 8.50 139,9 1.21,4
BMW M3 SMG (E36) 3/1997 26,5 8.35 144,0 1.18,4
BMW M3 (E46) 12/2000 23,2 8.22 147,7 1.17,6
BMW M3 CSL (E46) 8/2003 21,4 7.50 157,8 1.13,5
BMW M3 (E92) 12/2007 20,5 8.05 152,9 1.14,3
BMW M3 GTS (E92) (mit Sportreifen) 9/2010 18,8 7.48 158,5 1.12,5

[Boss330]

BTW, a very interesting interview of Horst von Saurma by Pistonheads. On the relevance of Nürburgring lap times:

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=30067

In a perfect world numbers and stats are the definitive factual answer to any dispute. If only it were so simple in the world of cars and, specifically in this instance, Nurburgring lap times. Who was driving, where the clock stopped and started, whether the car was standard or prepped, the time of day ... where there are variables there are arguments.

Never mind the whole question of whether or not such things matter in the first place.

They do to the readers of German mag Sport Auto and in its stat-heavy pages Horst von Saurma's lap times around the Nordschleife and Hockenheim loom large. Compiled in the mag's Super Test from 1997 onwards, von Saurma's lap times make for fascinating and occasionally surprising reading. See here for the archive. Whether perfect or not his system for compiling them - a single flying lap timed from the T13 industry pool exit and missing out the short straight before it - is consistent and his ability to extract a benchmark time on demand undoubted.

A chance to bend his ear on the subject on the Nurburgring-based launch for the Jaguar XFR-S Sportbrake (lap time not disclosed...) where he was one of the instructors/chaperones for our Nordschleife laps was too good to miss though. Fresh out of driving the new BMW M4 for a forthcoming Super Test we grabbed a few minutes to chat...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



When did you first lap the Nordschleife and how did the whole Super Test thing come about?

"My first laps here on a motorbike were in 1977. I started as a motorbike racer here on the Nordschleife as a participant in the eight-hour endurance world championship and then I started to be a journalist for the German motorcycle magazine Motorrad. I stayed there five years and then changed 1986 to the car magazine Autobild in Hamburg.

"In 1990 I started at Sport Auto in Stuttgart and our racetrack first was Hockenheim; we did not use it for lap times we just used it for measuring acceleration and braking and so on. After one year we started with the lap times at Hockenheim - it was too dangerous to do the vmax runs on the Autobahn with these fast cars and then I started the Super Test in 1997."

What was the first car you tested?
"It was an M3 SMG [E36] - I compared it with the 911 Turbo and the most recent in the last issue we have had the Porsche 918 Spyder. [It's scored 100 out of 100 points with a lap time of 7min 13sec - Ed.] This was the 200th super test so every month I have to produce this format between middle of March until the end of October. The M4 I have just tested, I did it just the way I do it in every case. I have just one 100 per cent lap and that's the difference to all the others; I have just one lap to learn the car behind then the timed one. This is the difference.

"The same with the Porsche 918 - I drove in the industry pool but you can't measure the time. They get angry because there are several cars on the track, you can't push there so I can go 80 per cent perhaps but the difference between 80 per cent and 100 per cent is 300 per cent! The rule is it's me the driver, it's this track, the surface must be dry, 2 degrees Celsius and above and you can go."


Does the car have to be stock?
"Yes. It has to, in theory. The only thing we do is modify is the air pressure in the tyres, this is the only thing we can arrange."

So how fast was that M3 in 1997 and what do you think of the performance gains since then?
I think it was 8min 35sec. [By the same measure the E30 Sport Evo did 8min 50sec, the E46 CSL 7min 50sec and the E92 M3 GTS 7min 49sec] The increasing performance is wonderful to see! We made a story some years ago with the Porsche 911 with the 993, the 997 and the 991 and you see the acceleration going up and the lap times going down. And this is the only test where you can compare it because it's only me doing it! When you have a test driver he is driving there for a whole week, a whole month, with new tyres every lap..."

As a journalist how do you feel about manufacturers claiming their own lap times for marketing purposes?
"It's interesting because I started with this lap time here in 1997 and they all do it now. Wolfgang Durheimer [former head of development at Porsche, now at Bentley] told me 'Your times are more interesting than what my test drivers or race drivers are doing because it says something about the driveability.' And this is key, the driveability of the car. I sit in the car at T13 and the two curves - the first left and the first right into Hatzenbach - I know the car and I either trust the car or I don't."



Critics of the Nurburgring mania say a Nordschleife lap time is an irrelevant measure of a car's performance; your chance to put the case for the defence!
"Of course it is relevant because it tests the whole car and when you have this number it is a comparison. You can have 0-100km/h and maybe it's five seconds and you say 'oh wow' but is there anyone who tests this in their daily driving? No. But with the lap time you have a number, whether it's eight minutes or whatever, and you can see what it does. Maybe 90 per cent of owners will never drive their cars in this way but they know and it is important. It is testing the whole part of the car, the brakes, the suspension, the engine. Everything."

Does the pressure to score a 'ring lap time ruin road cars?
"Not necessarily because we are testing the whole car and maybe here it can do a fast lap but it is not so nice to drive home. But some of the best cars are the ones that you can drive here and then you drive on the road and it is still good. For sure there are cars that are developed just for the Nordschleife but the best ones can do it all."

Have you a favourite car?
"Yes I think it would have to be the Porsche GT3, not the current one but the last one, not the 4.0, the 3.8 RS. That would be my dream, if I could have that car here in a garage with some tyres this would be ... OK!" [Horst raced a 3.8 RS in street trim to 13th place overall in the 2010 Nurburgring 24-hour, sharing driving duties with Roland Asch, German TV commentator Patrick Simon and some bloke called Chris Harris...]

You say you've never crashed a car on a Super Test but are there sections of the track that scare you?
"Yes of course. The faster sections of the track so when I am going up Kesselchen or Schwedenkreuz; these are the frightening pieces of the track. You are coming to Schwedenkreuz and you see 300km/h and you think yes that is fast..."

And the most frightening car you've had for a Super Test?
"I would rather not say but it was very light at the back end and after the jump it was landing with the nose down and ... yes, this was not so good."

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

BTW, a very interesting interview of Horst von Saurma by Pistonheads. On the relevance of Nürburgring lap times:

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=30067

Thanks for sharing. That was a cool read

[mkoesel]

Thanks for posting that Boss.

And this is the only test where you can compare it because it's only me doing it! When you have a test driver he is driving there for a whole week, a whole month, with new tyres every lap...

Hence why I think the Sport Auto super tests are so valuable.

The M4 I have just tested, I did it just the way I do it in every case. I have just one 100 per cent lap and that's the difference to all the others; I have just one lap to learn the car behind then the timed one. This is the difference.

It's no accident to me that BMW predicted the time so closely to what he actually achieved. They know the above is the case. Their drivers could probably do better since they have had months with the car. But if they shared those numbers then people would cry foul when the press can't match it. We see this happen with Nissan, Porsche, Etc.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Boss330

http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/bm...n-2780549.html

Die BMW M3 Supertest-Messwerte im Wandel der Zeit

0-200-0 km/h (s) - Rundenzeit Nordschleife (min) - Durchschnitts- geschwindigkeit Nordschleife (km/h) - Rundenzeit Hockenheim (min)

BMW M3 (E30) 9/2010 34,3 8.50 139,9 1.21,4
BMW M3 SMG (E36) 3/1997 26,5 8.35 144,0 1.18,4
BMW M3 (E46) 12/2000 23,2 8.22 147,7 1.17,6
BMW M3 CSL (E46) 8/2003 21,4 7.50 157,8 1.13,5
BMW M3 (E92) 12/2007 20,5 8.05 152,9 1.14,3
BMW M3 GTS (E92) (mit Sportreifen) 9/2010 18,8 7.48 158,5 1.12,5

Thanks for the interesting interview and the need to reply to bm323.

[Rambler]

Originally Posted by ChesterM4

Great lap time and in between some impressive cars on the all time list.

3 pages in .... and all positive comments what's going on....is the car deemed 'ok' now by owners of other BMW models?

Numbers are numbers and I think most agreed that this car would be fast.

[BMW M3 CRT]

I think 5.52min is no bad NOS time for an M4 equipped with DCT and on PSS !

BUT ... if the all new and lighter W205 C63 only improves 10s in NOS time it would be faster than the M4 on track ... what was in the past only the case if you compare the M3 with much newer and LCI cars of the C63.

Seems totally clear that the gap between M3/M4 and C63 is getting dramatical smaller if their would be even an gap !?

[Jockey]

Well, the W204 C63 ran an 8:01 to the E92 M3 8:05 so that gap is already gone.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Well, the W204 C63 ran an 8:01 to the E92 M3 8:05 so that gap is already gone.

True, for hp tracks like the n'schliefe. Tighter tracks I believe the E92 was always faster apples-apples but I could be wrong.

BTW, I totally get that your point was to refute the "gap closing argument" (aka sky is falling) and it was a good one. I was just adding the above for extra info, hope it didn't come across as pedantic (as i know this is a thread about the 'ring)

[Jockey]

No, not all. I was just doing exactly what you pointed out (the sky is not falling).

[FogCityM3]

Not to mention the widening gap with Porsche and Vettes.

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

I think 5.52min is no bad NOS time for an M4 equipped with DCT and on PSS !

BUT ... if the all new and lighter W205 C63 only improves 10s in NOS time it would be faster than the M4 on track ... what was in the past only the case if you compare the M3 with much newer and LCI cars of the C63.

Seems totally clear that the gap between M3/M4 and C63 is getting dramatical smaller if their would be even an gap !?

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Boss330

http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/bm...n-2780549.html

Die BMW M3 Supertest-Messwerte im Wandel der Zeit

0-200-0 km/h (s) - Rundenzeit Nordschleife (min) - Durchschnitts- geschwindigkeit Nordschleife (km/h) - Rundenzeit Hockenheim (min)

BMW M3 (E30) 9/2010 34,3 8.50 139,9 1.21,4
BMW M3 SMG (E36) 3/1997 26,5 8.35 144,0 1.18,4
BMW M3 (E46) 12/2000 23,2 8.22 147,7 1.17,6
BMW M3 CSL (E46) 8/2003 21,4 7.50 157,8 1.13,5
BMW M3 (E92) 12/2007 20,5 8.05 152,9 1.14,3
BMW M3 GTS (E92) (mit Sportreifen) 9/2010 18,8 7.48 158,5 1.12,5

My bad

[M5 BAT]

I think its a very respectable time and a great starting point! Now imagine the same car with R compound tires, coil over kit, exhaust system & ECU tune!! With just a few minimal modifications, I am confident it would hit 7:45 or less!

This car does stay true to its dual purpose: an everyday, usable, comfortable daily driver, that is also confident and very able on track!!! Can't wait to get my M4!!!

[Jadar]

Originally Posted by solstice

And here's the numbers for the 991 C2S since it's mentioned in OPs post.

The M4 matches or beats the C2S on every acceleration number but give up 8s on the ring and almost 2s at Hockenheim. All in all I say that's really good numbers for the M4.


Sport Auto Supertest - Porsche 911 Carrera S PDK (991)
•Equipment: 400 hp, PDK, PCCB, PASM -20 mm
•Tyres: Pirelli P Zero N0
•Weight: 1497 kg
•0-100 km/h: 4,2 s
•0-200 km/h: 14,1 s (997.2 PDK: 14,9 s, 997.2 GTS: 13,8 s)
•Braking 100-0 km/h cold/warm: 33,8 m (1,16 g) / 33,5 m (1,17 g)
•Braking 200-0 km/h warm: 131,6 m (1,19 g)
•36 m slalom: 139 km/h
•110 m ISO evasive test: 156 km/h (997.2 GT3: 160 km/h)
•Wet handling: 1.46,1 min
Hockenheimring short course: 1.10,4 min - as fast as 997.2 GT3 on semi-slicks, 3 (!) seconds quicker than 997.2 S PDK.
Nürburgring-Nordschleife: 7.44 min - as fast as Turbo S, only 4 sec slower than 997.2 GT3 on Cup-tyres.

amazing numbers!!! Im impressed indeed!!

You meant .08 tents of a second at Nurburgring and .02 the this at Hockenheim correct?

[DieGrüneHölle]

Lets get the M5 side of the forum back in for the debate...LOL.


Hockenheim

BMW M5 Competition Package (F10) 1:12.80

[NYAWE60]

Some KW V3's and a mild ECU and bolt on tune and this thing will DESTROY that 7:52 time.

[Sean@PSI]

Definitely does not disappoint!

[M5 BAT]

I love the fact that it beats the Cayman S!! Don't get me wrong, I love the Cayman, but having just sold one to jump into an M4, I am most pleased! :-)