981 Cayman S to F80?

[bates1325]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I'd pick the 991, that's why I'm selling to make the big upgrade.

I have to respectfully disagree on the rest. The manual gearbox in the 991 is a masterpiece and certainly the 6mt in my F80 M3 is much improved over any BMW I've owned but does not even hold a candle to a Porsche manual.
My F80 M3 has been one of the shortest cars I have ever owned. It frankly never thrilled me, and even the M4 with JB4 and downpipes i was in a few weeks ago just didn't do it either. Straight line acceleration really fades quick. There's always someone faster out there. I prefer the car the puts smiles on because it handles beautifully with precision and feedback. The M3 is not that car.
I actually think a 991 is a more comfortable and pleasant car to drive given how much more advanced the suspension is vs the M3 and M4. That difference really is exponentially seen on the track, too.

A little unfair to compare a Cayman of any model to something made by the M division, but your points are quite valid. Feel, handling and the really planted and visceral feast of sounds, senses and emotion will not be matched in the Cayman by many cars. You need something two to three times more expensive to to do.

My f80 is DCT which is why I preferred that car's transmission for daily driving in the traffic crazed area of Miami versus the 7mt 991

Both cars are magnificent though (as I have both)

Edit: I also speak on experience. I have owned and daily driven my 991 manual for just about 2 and a half years

[BGR]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I'd pick the 991, that's why I'm selling to make the big upgrade.

I have to respectfully disagree on the rest. The manual gearbox in the 991 is a masterpiece and certainly the 6mt in my F80 M3 is much improved over any BMW I've owned but does not even hold a candle to a Porsche manual.
My F80 M3 has been one of the shortest cars I have ever owned. It frankly never thrilled me, and even the M4 with JB4 and downpipes i was in a few weeks ago just didn't do it either. Straight line acceleration really fades quick. There's always someone faster out there. I prefer the car the puts smiles on because it handles beautifully with precision and feedback. The M3 is not that car.
I actually think a 991 is a more comfortable and pleasant car to drive given how much more advanced the suspension is vs the M3 and M4. That difference really is exponentially seen on the track, too.

A little unfair to compare a Cayman of any model to something made by the M division, but your points are quite valid. Feel, handling and the really planted and visceral feast of sounds, senses and emotion will not be matched in the Cayman by many cars. You need something two to three times more expensive to to do.

Is the 991 shift linkage cable driven? That is something about the 981 I feel is inferior to most BMWs... The shift feel. The cable linkage makes is light, but sloppy. Apparently the pulley and routing system on the car is the work of an idiot savant devil. Maybe mine just needs adjusting, who knows.

I agree comparing the driving dynamics of a Porsche to an M isn't apples to apples but I see you understood my intent.

[visualguy]

Originally Posted by BGR

Is the 991 shift linkage cable driven? That is something about the 981 I feel is inferior to most BMWs... The shift feel. The cable linkage makes is light, but sloppy. Apparently the pulley and routing system on the car is the work of an idiot savant devil. Maybe mine just needs adjusting, who knows.

Something must not be right with yours... It has a firm and precise feel on mine. No sloppiness whatsoever. However, it does sometimes have a clunky mechanical sound and feel, particularly the 1st-to-2nd shift.

[MDREDev]

Would never even begin to consider giving that 981 up for an F8X M knowing you have the Lexus for a DD. If you could only have one car then I could see getting the M. No brainer with the GX in the garage.

BTW - your CaymanS is gorgeous and stands out so much more than an M3/M4

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by BGR

Is the 991 shift linkage cable driven? That is something about the 981 I feel is inferior to most BMWs... The shift feel. The cable linkage makes is light, but sloppy. Apparently the pulley and routing system on the car is the work of an idiot savant devil. Maybe mine just needs adjusting, who knows.

I agree comparing the driving dynamics of a Porsche to an M isn't apples to apples but I see you understood my intent.

This sounds wrong. The best words to describe their manuals is "bolt action". They are smooth, precise and very solid engagement as compared to the sloppy, rubbery, stick through rocks feel of the BMW manual.

[BGR]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

This sounds wrong. The best words to describe their manuals is "bolt action". They are smooth, precise and very solid engagement as compared to the sloppy, rubbery, stick through rocks feel of the BMW manual.

The transmission on the 911 and Cayman are flip flopped though I believe so on a 911 the distance between the shifter and trans is shorter than on the Cayman, which may help it feel better. Cable linkages are inherently less precise.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by BGR

The transmission on the 911 and Cayman are flip flopped though I believe so on a 911 the distance between the shifter and trans is shorter than on the Cayman, which may help it feel better. Cable linkages are inherently less precise.

Not sure how true this is; I don't actually know, but I actually have found the Cayman manual to be more enjoyable, but it did have the factory short shifter. It was the best manual gearbox I've ever driven.

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Solution: sell that POS GX (I have a Lexus so allowed to Lexus bash) and get an X5 35d or Cayenne diesel for towing and daily driving.

Dumbest advice I've seen in this forum. GX470 is an amazingly competent, comfortable and reliable vehicle. X5 has one of the worst reliability ratings out there.

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by BGR

The transmission on the 911 and Cayman are flip flopped though I believe so on a 911 the distance between the shifter and trans is shorter than on the Cayman, which may help it feel better. Cable linkages are inherently less precise.

The 981 Cayman doesn't use the same manual transmission as the 991 911. It's a 6-speed; the 991 911 has a 7-speed stick.

[andy92782]

I have a similar stable to the OP: a 2010 Carrera S and a 2004 Toyota 4runner V8 4WD (which is basically the same thing as a Lexus GX470 without the leather and the Mark Levinson stereo).

I too struggle with driving my 997 daily on account of it being kind of a garage queen. The car does look and feel special but honestly once you become accustomed to it you get used to it and it becomes no big deal. The main reason why I sometimes grab the keys to the 4runner is because I'm in outside sales and I have to worry about the perception the p-car presents to my customers and suppliers. The Porsche is a flashy car and whether we like it or not, most people who aren't car guys like we are all think they cost $100K or more. This includes Caymans and Boxsters. They can't tell the difference between a Cayman and a 911 and it doesn't matter if the OP bought it a year old for well under that amount. On all other days, I grab the keys to the p-car.

This being said, I'd keep your stable exactly as it is. Unless you have a hard time with your GX470's 15mpg, you should keep it. I LOVE having my 4runner as a daily driver. Yes, it's somewhat boring but try to come up with another vehicle that combines its capability, comfort and reliability in a similarly sized package. The suggestion to swap it for something like an X5 or a Cayenne is insane: Have you seen the plummeting resale values of those cars compared to the GX470? Have you seen how often they break down compared to a GX470? I say lift it a couple inches, put some AT tires on it and plan your Moab or Death Valley expedition. I've done it. You'll have a blast. It's a truck, albeit a very quiet and refined one. Embrace it for what it is. You have your fun car (Cayman). Make sure your other car is one you can trust.

[PinkFlamingo]

Originally Posted by BGR

Someone call me crazy for thinking this please.

I've had a number of fun, unique, potent BMWs. Earlier this spring I picked up a pristine Porsche Cayman S (6MT of course). The car is drop dead gorgeous, fairly quick, comfortable, and sounds better than most anything else on the road. This is my first p-car, and the attention I get in it is ridiculous.

I attend 4-5 track days a year, which is obviously where the Cayman shines best. I don't really need back seats right now, although it would be nice if I wanted to throw the dogs in the back to visit family a few hours away. I have a GX470 as a daily driver and tow vehicle.

The problem is I find myself treating the car more like a garage queen than anything. Almost like it is too nice to drive around (I know that sounds odd). So I'm contemplating selling and getting an M2 or M3. If BMW offered the four door M2 I think that would be my first choice.

Anyway, anyone left BMW for Porsche then come back? I would love to be able to have both, especially since this Cayman will likely be one of the last great driver's cars.

I came from a handful of E92's (335i and then 3 M3's) from 08-14. Then like you picked up a highly optioned 981 CS that was originally an $85k msrp for $65k last year. It was by far the best car I have ever driven. I have a one year old now and it started to not make much sense to take the Porsche separately to places while my wife and daughter were in our other truck. Because of that I agreed to sell it and get something family friendly that could get some regular use and not sit in the garage most of the time.

In comes the new F80. I'll make this short and simple. I trade cars pretty often and don't get attached to them, but the 981 is the only car I cringed when handing over the keys. The F80 is a really nice car but I would take the CS back any day of the week if I didn't need the practicality. Trust me DO NOT TRADE YOUR CAYMAN FOR ANY F8x platform. Both great cars but the BMW comes in second to the Porsche as far as transmission, clutch, handling and MOST OF ALL STEERING. the Cayman steering is incredible for a modern day sports car. The steering in the F80 is an abortion at best. The car doesn't know how to drive straight. Period.

On the flip side. There are things that I love about the F80 that make it a great and practical choice. It's definitely more comfortable, easy to get in and out of and it does most everything other than electronically steer, really well. The new platform has great acceleration as everyone here can confirm. Overall it's a really nice car and there aren't many other options I would consider in this segment and price range.

At the end of the day it just doesn't feel as special or give the driving experience that the 981 did for me. Hope this helps coming from someone that owned both platforms.

Frank

[DDR MFS]

I am in the same exact dilemma of deciding between a 981 or a F80!

I am coming off a three year lease of a 335is (E92) which I love, but am craving more. I adore BMW and love the fine balance the company finds between practicality and off the wall driving exhilaration. I went to the BMW school and fell in love with the F80 when we were putting them to the test on the track. The DCT suits the motor perfectly and the car is so evenly balanced yet can behave like a wild child when asked to do so. It is also forgiving and won't kill you because of a pilot induced error.

Converse side is I am also a huge P-car fan (my father owned three to include the venerated 94 Carrera 4 with switchable AWD), and I test drove a base Cayman with PDK today. My spec build would be the base with PDK, PASM and Sport Chrono. In driving the base model, I was shocked at how truly intuitive the lay out was, how gracefully spartan the interior was, but most importantly, how planted and sure of itself the car was when put into the corners. You think and it goes. While I love the torque and power of the Munich car, the Stuttgart guys got handling right.

This is not saying that the F80 doesn't handle well at all which it does. I am about handling and brakes. Power is icing on the cake if it can be controlled.

For me it is coming down to necessity. With a family on the horizon, but my wife having a Forrester (go SUBIE!), we can sort of go either way. For me, it is coming down to an apples to oranges comparison given how different the cars are, but how they beg enthusiast drivers to scoop them up and push them.

And yes, I cannot figure out which is the better suit. My heart, loyalty and love of power say M3, but my driving style and intuition say 981... I do auto-X and do occasional track events, and either car screams (BMW) or will scream (981) on the track.

This may not help anyone and it doesn't help me, but at least I can spew out my thoughts like a 12 year old girl. I am leaning toward the F80 for practicality, but I am definitely not jumping in blindly. A few months, some thoughts and getting into my 335is definitely weans me back to Munich.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by FrankThomas

I came from a handful of E92's (335i and then 3 M3's) from 08-14. Then like you picked up a highly optioned 981 CS that was originally an $85k msrp for $65k last year. It was by far the best car I have ever driven. I have a one year old now and it started to not make much sense to take the Porsche separately to places while my wife and daughter were in our other truck. Because of that I agreed to sell it and get something family friendly that could get some regular use and not sit in the garage most of the time.

In comes the new F80. I'll make this short and simple. I trade cars pretty often and don't get attached to them, but the 981 is the only car I cringed when handing over the keys. The F80 is a really nice car but I would take the CS back any day of the week if I didn't need the practicality. Trust me DO NOT TRADE YOUR CAYMAN FOR ANY F8x platform. Both great cars but the BMW comes in second to the Porsche as far as transmission, clutch, handling and MOST OF ALL STEERING. the Cayman steering is incredible for a modern day sports car. The steering in the F80 is an abortion at best. The car doesn't know how to drive straight. Period.

On the flip side. There are things that I love about the F80 that make it a great and practical choice. It's definitely more comfortable, easy to get in and out of and it does most everything other than electronically steer, really well. The new platform has great acceleration as everyone here can confirm. Overall it's a really nice car and there aren't many other options I would consider in this segment and price range.

At the end of the day it just doesn't feel as special or give the driving experience that the 981 did for me. Hope this helps coming from someone that owned both platforms.

Frank

You are pretty spot on here. The Porsche line up can go from fast to world beating fast depending on what model you get, but no matter what you buy from them the masterpiece engineering, the feel and feedback and countless R&D of perfecting every aspect of the car can be felt and experienced in spades. BMW simply is not on this level, nor are most any other car manufacturer today (with a couple exceptions).
While the M3 is fast, there's just something about the car that doesn't sit well with me. Yes, its pretty fast, but then again, it's making a good bit more power than they claim. Much close to the 500 mark than 424, that's for sure, hence why it traps 118. At the same time, the steering, the engagement and feel of the clutch, the rather cheap feeling leather, interior and buttons and the incessant sound of rocks in the wheel wells just doesn't add up to an overall great experience.
I actually find the suspension on the 991 to be more compliant than that of the my M3. It soaks up bumps much better, has a much more luxurious feel and really feels special in a way that I don't think a BMW M car ever will. There's a sense of occasion to it, and my god the sound!

[PinkFlamingo]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

You are pretty spot on here. The Porsche line up can go from fast to world beating fast depending on what model you get, but no matter what you buy from them the masterpiece engineering, the feel and feedback and countless R&D of perfecting every aspect of the car can be felt and experienced in spades. BMW simply is not on this level, nor are most any other car manufacturer today (with a couple exceptions).
While the M3 is fast, there's just something about the car that doesn't sit well with me. Yes, its pretty fast, but then again, it's making a good bit more power than they claim. Much close to the 500 mark than 424, that's for sure, hence why it traps 118. At the same time, the steering, the engagement and feel of the clutch, the rather cheap feeling leather, interior and buttons and the incessant sound of rocks in the wheel wells just doesn't add up to an overall great experience.
I actually find the suspension on the 991 to be more compliant than that of the my M3. It soaks up bumps much better, has a much more luxurious feel and really feels special in a way that I don't think a BMW M car ever will. There's a sense of occasion to it, and my god the sound!

I agree 100%.

I really can't understand why there aren't so many more complaints about the steering on this forum. My comments are nothing to do about the weight of the wheel as this feels plenty stiff in all settings. Specifically I can't understand how the M division let this car out of the factory, with pride in how they think they got it right.

The best way to describe the awfulness is on the highway, if your in the left or right lane, that naturally arches in a direction, it feels ok because the car has lean and you are essentially continuously counter steering. Now shift into the middle lane at 70mph where the road is flattest and the car is not leaning left or right. All of a sudden the steering goes numb until it naturally falls off a straight path and then you have to counter steer to keep the car centered in the lane. On top of it there is a micro delay in the point where your counter steer catches.

It's disgusting and honestly my biggest issue that will likely prevent me from ever loving the F80 the way I loved the 981 and even my previous M cars. The E9x M3 steering was never on a Porsche level, but at least it could drive straight. This reminds me of the steering in my wife's 2011 MB c300. I threw the keys at the dealer when that came off lease.

This adds to your point about BMW just not taking it to another level and doing whatever it takes to make the car the best that it can be. Something Porsche would never accept. If during the R&D phase they felt numbness in the new electric steering, then they would go back over and over again until they got it right. BMW just accepted what they produced and let it loose. Some think P-cars are overpriced, but I think that all depends what you think you are paying for.

I don't think I'll be back in any type of two seater anytime soon with a growing family, but I'll seriously consider squeezing a couple of kids in the back of a 911 in the very near future.

[bimmerj]

I had a white one like yours (PDK). I can't find the thread I created here, when they took us to the track. It on here somewhere. This was the best car ever. My wife made me sell it and I am still crying about it until now .The only reason to trade it, is practicality that's about it.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by FrankThomas

I agree 100%.

I really can't understand why there aren't so many more complaints about the steering on this forum. My comments are nothing to do about the weight of the wheel as this feels plenty stiff in all settings. Specifically I can't understand how the M division let this car out of the factory, with pride in how they think they got it right.

The best way to describe the awfulness is on the highway, if your in the left or right lane, that naturally arches in a direction, it feels ok because the car has lean and you are essentially continuously counter steering. Now shift into the middle lane at 70mph where the road is flattest and the car is not leaning left or right. All of a sudden the steering goes numb until it naturally falls off a straight path and then you have to counter steer to keep the car centered in the lane. On top of it there is a micro delay in the point where your counter steer catches.

It's disgusting and honestly my biggest issue that will likely prevent me from ever loving the F80 the way I loved the 981 and even my previous M cars. The E9x M3 steering was never on a Porsche level, but at least it could drive straight. This reminds me of the steering in my wife's 2011 MB c300. I threw the keys at the dealer when that came off lease.

This adds to your point about BMW just not taking it to another level and doing whatever it takes to make the car the best that it can be. Something Porsche would never accept. If during the R&D phase they felt numbness in the new electric steering, then they would go back over and over again until they got it right. BMW just accepted what they produced and let it loose. Some think P-cars are overpriced, but I think that all depends what you think you are paying for.

I don't think I'll be back in any type of two seater anytime soon with a growing family, but I'll seriously consider squeezing a couple of kids in the back of a 911 in the very near future.

I know what you mean, it's quite numb and really is devoid if anything I'd call feel.

What I forgot to say in my previous post was that no matter what Porsche it is, you always get the world class handling too, which truly is something they just excel at over anyone. Anyone can make a fast car, but to have the natural balance, the planted feeling, stability, and endless grip on suspension geometry that truly feels perfect is something you can't put a price on.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by FrankThomas

I agree 100%.

I really can't understand why there aren't so many more complaints about the steering on this forum. My comments are nothing to do about the weight of the wheel as this feels plenty stiff in all settings. Specifically I can't understand how the M division let this car out of the factory, with pride in how they think they got it right.

The best way to describe the awfulness is on the highway, if your in the left or right lane, that naturally arches in a direction, it feels ok because the car has lean and you are essentially continuously counter steering. Now shift into the middle lane at 70mph where the road is flattest and the car is not leaning left or right. All of a sudden the steering goes numb until it naturally falls off a straight path and then you have to counter steer to keep the car centered in the lane. On top of it there is a micro delay in the point where your counter steer catches.

It's disgusting and honestly my biggest issue that will likely prevent me from ever loving the F80 the way I loved the 981 and even my previous M cars. The E9x M3 steering was never on a Porsche level, but at least it could drive straight. This reminds me of the steering in my wife's 2011 MB c300. I threw the keys at the dealer when that came off lease.

This adds to your point about BMW just not taking it to another level and doing whatever it takes to make the car the best that it can be. Something Porsche would never accept. If during the R&D phase they felt numbness in the new electric steering, then they would go back over and over again until they got it right. BMW just accepted what they produced and let it loose. Some think P-cars are overpriced, but I think that all depends what you think you are paying for.

I don't think I'll be back in any type of two seater anytime soon with a growing family, but I'll seriously consider squeezing a couple of kids in the back of a 911 in the very near future.

I think your steering comments are on point, this is a great way to describe what I've felt... it has a weird tendency to float over and re center... but at the same time I don't see how on the street this matters or for a car thats daily driven it matters. I still think its very enjoyable but I don't track my car... if u want to feel bad steering, go drive a c63

[georgere]

every time I read a thread like this I want to go get a p-car. tried it with macan s - didn't like it at all during several test drives. Cayman/Boxter is nice but small and less of a car (vs 911). So it is 911 for me but I cant afford current generation (used) and do not want to get previous generation (no warranty).
I test drove F80 M3 two times already and loved it. Perhaps M3 is not the fillet of cars but I it is definitely a good piece of steak that will make you full and happy.
sorry OP no help here.... oh wait, keep the Cayman and use it more until you have family and kids then decide.

[rsdarcan66]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

You are pretty spot on here. The Porsche line up can go from fast to world beating fast depending on what model you get, but no matter what you buy from them the masterpiece engineering, the feel and feedback and countless R&D of perfecting every aspect of the car can be felt and experienced in spades. BMW simply is not on this level, nor are most any other car manufacturer today (with a couple exceptions).
While the M3 is fast, there's just something about the car that doesn't sit well with me. Yes, its pretty fast, but then again, it's making a good bit more power than they claim. Much close to the 500 mark than 424, that's for sure, hence why it traps 118. At the same time, the steering, the engagement and feel of the clutch, the rather cheap feeling leather, interior and buttons and the incessant sound of rocks in the wheel wells just doesn't add up to an overall great experience.
I actually find the suspension on the 991 to be more compliant than that of the my M3. It soaks up bumps much better, has a much more luxurious feel and really feels special in a way that I don't think a BMW M car ever will. There's a sense of occasion to it, and my god the sound!

I agree with everything. You said. I had my GTS Out this weekend and it has the X73 suspension. It felt smoother than my F82.. Which is hard to believe.

[rsdarcan66]

Originally Posted by BGR

Which do you find yourself choosing more often to drive?

Probably the F82 but I don't like to dive my P-car down to my business.

[BGR]

Originally Posted by rsdarcan66

I agree with everything. You said. I had my GTS Out this weekend and it has the X73 suspension. It felt smoother than my F82.. Which is hard to believe.

That's the one swap I wish my car had - PASM for X73, especially since it isn't a daily driver.

[RIP1981]

Hi all,

I am also in a similar situation somehow :-)

Currently I drive a Cayman S 987 and both of us (my wife and me) love it. But it is currently also my daily driver to work and back.
Daily traffic jams and it is a short shifter manual. Not really fun to drive it in jams. But a lot of fun to drive it on the nürburgring ;-)

Now we saved some money and our second car currently is a very old Opel Astra Coupé from 2003.

I drove the 981 Non S and S with PDK and loved it as some sort of high tech weapon. It doesn't feel as natural as the old 987 and is not as nervous but it is a hell of a lot faster and easier to drive and still feels like a light sports car.

So the logical decision would somehow be to replace my old Cayman for the new one. But somehow we can't leave this pure driving machine with manual and all the hardcore stuff, we just love it.

Buying a 981 as the second car? We don't have kids (yet) and won't have kids for the next few years. So we could afford to have 2x 2 Seaters. I would take the new one for daily driving.

However. In the same price category I can also buy a M3 F80 and pick it up in Munich.
This would totally replace our old Astra. 4-5 seats, 4 doors, practical and huge (which is more of a concern).

But I bet it would be a lot more comfortable in boring dd situations or on very long road trips. I would for sure take the adaptive dampers.

But then the 981 with PASM and perhaps even 19" wheels is also very comfortable. Not sure yet which would be more comfortable.

So now I am not sure what to do Somehow I also want to try something different. A big but still not to heavy power sedan would be a nice new experience and we could take friends with us. We could even drive the nürburgring with 4 people sometimes

And yet we would still have a pure fun car on weekends with the old Cayman S, which sounds more natural without those artificial blurbs. It does them also but randomly and not always and artificial. It sounds a lot better than the current M3 for sure. And it is lighter, more nimble and more fun to drive. But also slower for sure against the current M3

So, what would you do? Mind you for the price of the new M3 I could also replace the old Cayman for the new Cayman and additionally buy something like a 2 year old 335i as daily driver replacing the old Astra.

Owning a M3 would be a new experience and I always wanted to drive different things in life. I had a Porsche for a few years now. I also often drive a 911 as replacement car. Even had a driver training in the 911. But I never owned a M car.

I guess Cayman + M3 is somehow a dream combination. One pure driving experience and one really nice compromise with also some myth around it.

Soooo I really don't know yet what to do