Sportauto supertest Nurburgring and Hockenheim laptimes: 7.52 / 1:12.18 min

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Have you driven the 'Ring before and after the resurfacing, ideally in same car, over many years? It would be helpful to get your impressions. We can add them to Sabine's.

Anyone know if there is a study that examines this question of change in times before/after resurfacing at the 'Ring? One would think that if there is an effect it would be obvious...

I have been driving the Ring every year since 2005. In E46 and E92 M3s, Z4Ms and an Audi RS4.

The Ring is being resurfaced constantly, to compensate for wear and tear. In some places the profile (shape) of the surface has been significantly changed for safety, to reduce the tendency for faster cars to take off.

Sabine? Sabine who?

Oh wait. You were being sarcastic.

Helpful.....

I thought we were trying to be objective?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tony B

I have been driving the Ring every year since 2005. In E46 and E92 M3s, Z4Ms and an Audi RS4.

The Ring is being resurfaced constantly, to compensate for wear and tear. In some places the profile (shape) of the surface has been significantly changed for safety, to reduce the tendency for faster cars to take off.

Sabine? Sabine who?

Oh wait. You were being sarcastic.

Helpful.....

I thought we were trying to be objective?

It's obvious that you love your E9X. It's a great car. Why are you so concerned with justifying its performance relative to an F8X? You seem overly emotionally vested in 'proving' that the performance is close between the two cars (..when to most it's pretty obvious that the F8X is a significantly better performer).

[Sir Loin]

Wait a minute! Did someone say the same guy drove the E92 in 2007 and the new F82 in 2014? I contest that, as it is a well known fact that human being's reflects and hand-eye coordination deteriorate as they age, the new F82's 'Ring time would actually be faster if it was driven by the same driver in 2007. At least 10 seconds give or take 8 seconds.

Someone bring that 2007 guy to 2014 and have him do the lap in a F82.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It's obvious that you love your E9X. It's a great car. Why are you so concerned with justifying its performance relative to an F8X? You seem overly emotionally vested in 'proving' that the performance is close between the two cars (..when to most it's pretty obvious that the F8X is a significantly better performer).

You only say that because of facts and reality and logic. Set those aside, and who can say which is faster or better? In that world, my old VW Jetta 1.8 T could (I am certain) put down 7min flat with the super-duper tires I just invented in my head, delimited and with fresh - but not too fresh- paving. I am certain. Because I said it. No, I've never done it (even though I have thousands of ring laps on GT6 under my belt) but I am certain.

In fact, I had a 1988 Pontiac firefly at one point. That thing was so light that I bet those 3 cylinders could easily get a 7:30 at the 'Ring.

Don't bother arguing with me. I can always create more variables and hypotheticals to further solidify my self-certainty. It is just how amazing I am and my cars are/were. Best combination I have ever met. Just ask me.

Or, put another way, you'd be better off doing this than feeding the trolls:

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Sir Loin

Wait a minute! Did someone say the same guy drove the E92 in 2007 and the new F82 in 2014? I contest that, as it is a well known fact that human being's reflects and hand-eye coordination deteriorate as they age, the new F82's 'Ring time would actually be faster if it was driven by the same driver in 2007. At least 10 seconds give or take 8 seconds.

Someone bring that 2007 guy to 2014 and have him do the lap in a F82.

Great Scott Marty! He is right! Get the delorean!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by myzmak

You only say that because of facts and reality and logic. Set those aside, and who can say which is faster or better? In that world, my old VW Jetta 1.8 T could (I am certain) put down 7min flat with the super-duper tires I just invented in my head, delimited and with fresh - but not too fresh- paving. I am certain. Because I said it. No, I've never done it (even though I have thousands of ring laps on GT6 under my belt) but I am certain.

In fact, I had a 1988 Pontiac firefly at one point. That thing was so light that I bet those 3 cylinders could easily get a 7:30 at the 'Ring.

Don't bother arguing with me. I can always create more variables and hypotheticals to further solidify my self-certainty. It is just how amazing I am and my cars are/were. Best combination I have ever met. Just ask me.

Or, put another way, you'd be better off doing this than feeding the trolls:

That was hilarious in a very good way

[FogCityM3]

Limited only in your mind!

Originally Posted by dustman

Wait, can someone recap this succinctly....was the e92 limited?

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Boss330

That was hilarious in a very good way

Strange how a perfectly reasonable debate can descend into childish sarcasm.

Why is that?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tony B

Strange how a perfectly reasonable debate can descend into childish sarcasm.

Why is that?

Probably because you started adding unreasonable components to an otherwise fairly reasonable debate. The discussion then becomes circular, so there is no point in continuing down a reasonable path. At this point we might as well all pull our units out, put socks on them, wiggle our hips around and play 'helicopter' (..all while arguing about length versus girth and ethnic predispositions).

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by Tony B

And you have just found a way to demonstrate how clueless you are.

Ever driven the Ring?

I have Tony, thanks for asking. I'm a regular track go-er in fact, who has met quite a few members here, though have only made one extended visit to the "Ring" so am far from an expert expert there. You need to realize time marches on and also learn to lighten up before rudely calling people clueless and making yourself look silly.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Tony B

Strange how a perfectly reasonable debate can descend into childish sarcasm.

Why is that?

It's hardly reasonable with so many "if only", "but because" etc arguments are being used as scientific fact to claim that the "real" difference is only 5-8s...

New bitumen, older driver, track temperature etc are all variables that can influence a lap time. But the same arguments can be used to argue that the E9x lap time was done under more favourable circumstances... Which leaves us with so many questions and unknowns/variables that it's really impossible to make a "reasonable" case for much more than the 13s gap we actually have documented!

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Probably because you started adding unreasonable components to an otherwise fairly reasonable debate. The discussion then becomes circular, so there is no point in continuing down a reasonable path. At this point we might as well all pull our units out, put socks on them, wiggle our hips around and play 'helicopter' (..all while arguing about length versus girth and ethnic predispositions).

The only one where you might have a point was the limited/unlimited question, which I withdrew.

The rest of your post is just proving my point about sarcasm.

So why can you not accept that the valid point of comparison is a late DCT E92 ZCP against the F8x in any spec?

A genuine comparison would be back to back on the same day.

13 seconds is an illusion, just like the claimed weight savings.

Maybe some can claim/believe that 13 seconds quicker around the Ring is worth saying goodbye to one of the best and most charismatic engines ever made.

It is a rather less convincing argument if the difference is just 5 seconds.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The only one where you might have a point was the limited/unlimited question, which I withdrew.

Good!

Originally Posted by Tony B

The rest of your post is just proving my point about sarcasm.

Sarcasm was the sole intent of that last comment.

Originally Posted by Tony B

So why can you not accept that the valid point of comparison is a late DCT E92 ZCP against the F8x in any spec?

The DCT isn't going to make up that much time dude.

Originally Posted by Tony B

A genuine comparison would be back to back on the same day.

How do you know that BMW DIDN'T do this?

Originally Posted by Tony B

13 seconds is an illusion, just like the claimed weight savings.

Says you!

Originally Posted by Tony B

Maybe some can claim/believe that 13 seconds quicker around the Ring is worth saying goodbye to one of the best and most charismatic engines ever made.

That's YOUR opinion of the motor. I've said goodbye to an S54 twice and the S65 three times. Things change.........people change.......time moves on.

Originally Posted by Tony B

It is a rather less convincing argument if the difference is just 5 seconds.

Not really. Faster is faster (..especially for the same money)!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The only one where you might have a point was the limited/unlimited question, which I withdrew.

The rest of your post is just proving my point about sarcasm.

So why can you not accept that the valid point of comparison is a late DCT E92 ZCP against the F8x in any spec?

A genuine comparison would be back to back on the same day.

13 seconds is an illusion, just like the claimed weight savings.

Maybe some can claim/believe that 13 seconds quicker around the Ring is worth saying goodbye to one of the best and most charismatic engines ever made.

It is a rather less convincing argument if the difference is just 5 seconds.

Why is the valid point of comparison a CP E9x vs a non CP F8x???

What we have isn't what you prefer, we have a early E92 vs a early F82. It's just as valid to say that this is also a very valid comparison!

Back to back on the same day would be absolutely the best we could get

13s is an illusion? Didn't you talk about a "reasonable" debate??? 13s is NOT an illusion. That is the difference between the two Supertest times and you can't argue that that is an illusion...

Not sure why you feel the need to justify your own M3 as much as you do?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Why is the valid point of comparison a CP E9x vs a non CP F8x???

What we have isn't what you prefer, we have a early E92 vs a early F82. It's just as valid to say that this is also a very valid comparison!

Back to back on the same day would be absolutely the best we could get

13s is an illusion? Didn't you talk about a "reasonable" debate??? 13s is NOT an illusion. That is the difference between the two Supertest times and you can't argue that that is an illusion...

Not sure why you feel the need to justify your own M3 as much as you do?

+2

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The only one where you might have a point was the limited/unlimited question, which I withdrew.

The rest of your post is just proving my point about sarcasm.

So why can you not accept that the valid point of comparison is a late DCT E92 ZCP against the F8x in any spec?

A genuine comparison would be back to back on the same day.

13 seconds is an illusion, just like the claimed weight savings.

Maybe some can claim/believe that 13 seconds quicker around the Ring is worth saying goodbye to one of the best and most charismatic engines ever made.

It is a rather less convincing argument if the difference is just 5 seconds.

See the bolded section above... that's what some are suggesting... this is as much about you justifying not wanting to give up the E92 as anything. You can deny it but it is fairly transparent.

Just because the F8X is faster, has better handling, way more usable torque, better interior and better brakes does not mean it is a better car for you or that you need to argue why the improvements are not enough for you to change. The E92 is a stellar car... enjoy it... but no need to spend hours debating hypothetical adjustments to the only real data available simply to try to prove that the F8X isn't a worthy upgrade. It is and will be for most current M3 owners. Whether it is for you or not is another matter. No need to justify... if you love the E92 engine, etc then fantastic. Enjoy it!!

Also keep in mind that in 98% of driving, the F8X will be much improved as what really matters then is the car you live with daily (inside) and the torque and usable power. Having said that, even on a track I think it is shown the F8X is a real improvement and those who review it and have driven both confirm. As it should be for a new generation car. As I have already said in another thread, I really LOVED my E92 M3 ZCP but after driving the F80 M3 last week (albeit short and not on a track) my opinion is that the F8X is a meaningful improvement in a lot of ways... but that takes nothing away from the stellar car the E92 was and is.

[coloradoe92m3]

Sorry normally you have insightful stuff but really? Is DCT better around an 8 minute track than a 6 speed when even in a short straight line race the dct makes noticeable difference?

The same thing the e46 could have said? Really? The e92 initial test car used a manual gear box available to the car, base steel brakes of the car and the bone stock differential and equipment.

So your logic is saying that at the end of the e46 life cycle, they and an e92 upgraded differential to put on the e46, they had all aluminum suspension upgrades to the e46 and whatever other nonsense you talked about. The fact is the e46 was with its base set of equipment and compared to the e92 with its base set of equipment. It ran with apples to apples comparison. Adding a 7th gear, 2 clutches and automation to the process obviously adds a huge advantage and since the e92 came with a dct but the test didn't use it, its absurd to say that is anything like comparing an e92 to an e46 testing times.

Really? Just silly post

Originally Posted by gthal

The E92 was delimited.

Pick a number for the benefits of CCB, DCT if you want but there is nothing to prove the time improvement (DCT worth 5s? Really? How do you know?) and it is all guess work. The bottom line is E46 folks could say the same thing about the E92... take away the better this or that and the differential is smaller. The bottom line is the F8X DOES have CCB brakes and the E92 does not. It is, in fact, one way the car is improved.

The F8X is meaningfully faster... read some of the reviews and their comments relative to the E9X and it is pretty clear the car is a meaningful improvement in many, many ways.

You may not like that, you may not want that but, unfortunately, it is true. Even if you back off DCT, tires and CCB, if the car is 8 seconds faster that is still meaningfully faster... that is, you wouldn't even see the E92 in your rear view mirror at the finish line.

The only meaningful comparison is stock to stock as the cars were sold. Anything else is only justification and sour grapes IMO... but that is just my view.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

Just silly post

Keep reading the following posts

But, hey, isn't everyone entitled to silly posts now and again? Not that I don't stand by my post... just saying

[coloradoe92m3]

Man your posts have gotten really bad. "more usable torque" and the fact that 98 percent of the time will have more usable torque around the city" really has absolutely zero to do with talking lap times in a thread about lap times. There is no such thing as usable torque when your doing a lap. Your at peak power of your cars engine and you compare peak power for peak power.

Now if you want to go post in the "the f80 is quicker stop light to stop light or around town if you don't want to shift gears " post than you have a winner with your comments.

Otherwise its absurd you cant even recognize the obvious. To conclude
1-you believe dct has no advantage over an 8 mile track. Ok great.
2-You don't feel 40 pound lighter carbon brakes matter on a rough track like the ring. All that weight not ben damped by the suspension and not needing to control those 40 unsprung pounds will hugely help with grip on a rough track, then there is the 40 rotational pounds aspect of simply acceleration of the car, and than face resistance may be a smaller part on 1 lap but may or may not help on this one lap. Ok got it-those don't matter to you
3.The f80 has more usable torque around town so than it must have a 13 second lead over the e92 on the ring. Got it.

If you simply feel dct is worth nothing over 6 speed, PSS tires are worth nothing over cup Plus which are NOT Michelin CUPs, 40 pound lighter carbon brakes do nothing with control of suspension on rough or change in elevation tracks or rotational weight component, than we really have nothing else to discuss. Agree to disagree

Originally Posted by gthal

See the bolded section above... that's what some are suggesting... this is as much about you justifying not wanting to give up the E92 as anything. You can deny it but it is fairly transparent.

Just because the F8X is faster, has better handling, way more usable torque, better interior and better brakes does not mean it is a better car for you or that you need to argue why the improvements are not enough for you to change. The E92 is a stellar car... enjoy it... but no need to spend hours debating hypothetical adjustments to the only real data available simply to try to prove that the F8X isn't a worthy upgrade. It is and will be for most current M3 owners. Whether it is for you or not is another matter. No need to justify... if you love the E92 engine, etc then fantastic. Enjoy it!!

Also keep in mind that in 98% of driving, the F8X will be much improved as what really matters then is the car you live with daily (inside) and the torque and usable power. Having said that, even on a track I think it is shown the F8X is a real improvement and those who review it and have driven both confirm. As it should be for a new generation car. As I have already said in another thread, I really LOVED my E92 M3 ZCP but after driving the F80 M3 last week (albeit short and not on a track) my opinion is that the F8X is a meaningful improvement in a lot of ways... but that takes nothing away from the stellar car the E92 was and is.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

Sorry normally you have insightful stuff but really? Is DCT better around an 8 minute track than a 6 speed when even in a short straight line race the dct makes noticeable difference?

Does the DCT really make a noticeable difference on the F8x straight line acceleration?

Sport Auto and Auto Motor & Sport tested the MT and DCT and achieved allmost exactly identical times. Both did 0-100km/h in 4,2s for instance.

Just sayin

[DieGrüneHölle]

OP or Mods need to fix the first post.

Hockenheim time is 1:12.8 not 1:12.18.

Unless I am reading this wrong.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Does the DCT really make a noticeable difference on the F8x straight line acceleration?

Sport Auto and Auto Motor & Sport tested the MT and DCT and achieved allmost exactly identical times. Both did 0-100km/h in 4,2s for instance.

Just sayin

He'll say they didn't know how to drive the DCT.