We Talk M3 / M4 Nurburgring Time, Electric Steering & Other Tech Highlights w/ BMW M

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by M3Denver

10 seconds faster so i looked up ring laptimes for the e92 m3 and found fastest being 7m57s, do the new one will do the ring in about 7min 47 seconds ??

The new camaro does the ring in approximately7m 37sec.
Porsche 991 carerra s 7.37
Corvette c6 zr1 7.38
Ferrari 458 7.38
BMW m3 gts 7.48
BMW m3 csl 7m 50s

So it's the equivalent of the e92 m3 gts model? And the new camaro is fucking badass w a time like that !!!!!wow... Figured m3 would be close to competing but I was wrong.... Not even close to middle of the range porsche or north American muscle or Japanese Godzilla.

Yes, all of those $60k cars beat the new F80/2. Not to mention other midrange cars like R8, Nismo, SLS, P1, and 918. Definitely disappointing! Remember to open the windows and bring your iPod in the Camaro, btw.

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by Chill72

BMW reps clearly stated that difference is MORE than 10 sec. Which means it'll be at least 11 sec. faster.

Originally Posted by Chill72

Yes I agree...if you're lapping a two mile course.

Northloop is 14 miles so no need to be pedantic about it.

Anyway I think it's pretty safe to say that new M3/4 will be at least 12 sec faster. BMW guys always give you conservative numbers.

Yeah I had to be pedantic...

You said more than 10 seconds "means it will be at least 11 seconds faster". Just wanted to clear any confusion so that no one else says BMW said or meant 11 seconds.

Now I'll lol

[FogCityM3]

Fully agree..remember what the CSL and GTS did. SportAuto has GOT to do the head-to-head SuperTest you suggested.

Originally Posted by Longboarder

The e9x fanboys might be spot on. 10 sec compared to the tested 2007 M3 with manual trans with initial engine software ? 10 sec could be made up with 240e, DCT and comp package option. Remember, the 240e cars were dyno'ing 25 hp higher. Comp package had better suspension and tires got better also.

I'd like to see a stock DCT Comp 2013 go against an M4 DCT without the optional CCBs. That would be interesting indeed.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Can you please cite your sources for the "praise that the E9X generation received?" Are you talking about the steering feel in the E9's? Because the E46 steering feel was much more tactile than the E92.

If your sources are "many members of this forum"...nevermind.

Steering "feel" really doesn't mean anything tangible. Steering feel is made up of a few different components:

1. Steering effort and torque gradient (on-center and off-center)
2. Response linearity
3. Road input transmissibility
4. Steering wheel torque feedback at the limits of adhesion


Part of the reason that EPS systems don't perform as well as Hydraulic systems is that the computer control gives the engineers LOTS of toys to play with. Features like understeer mitigation, lane-keeping, road crown and alignment compensation all basically make small changes to your steering command before it makes its way to the wheels. This results in an artificial disconnected feeling that so many cars are plagued with today.

Further, the market demands a pretty high level of refinement these days, so the engineers will do whatever they can to filter out ANY vibration that may make its way to the steering wheel. This takes away quite a bit of road feel, but that's what the market requires these days.

EPS typically has very good response characteristics. The problem is that tuning the steering torque gradient to match this response can be tricky, even more so when you also have to incorporate all the above "features" and meet low steering effort targets.

BMW has stated that they aren't using any of these technologies in the new M3, and that alone should go a LONG way to improve steering feel over the F30.

Finally, there's a learning curve. We're only human, and it takes time to figure out the best way to apply and tune all the technology that we've developed. I'm confident that we won't even be having this EPS discussion within a generation or two. I'm expecting that the F8x will be 90% there already.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Yes, all of those $60k cars beat the new F80/2. Not to mention other midrange cars like R8, Nismo, SLS, P1, and 918. Definitely disappointing! Remember to open the windows and bring your iPod in the Camaro, btw.

By the way, The Z28 is BARELY a street car. It's probably one of the most track-oriented cars on the market today, especially at that level. The tires alone are worth a couple seconds a lap on a NORMAL race track in the US, let alone the 'ring.

[FogCityM3]

It's a common misconception, in the SportAuto super test the F10 M5 did the N-ring in 8:05 (I read the article). I have yet to find the actual original documented source of 7:55.

Originally Posted by cs4444

The E60 did a 8:12, and the standard F10 M5 lapped the ring in 7:55 (17 sec diff.). The M5 with comp. pack, or M6 are most likely a few ticks faster.The M4 being over 1000lbs lighter, with a similar power to weight ratio, and a better torque to weight ratio vs the F10 it should easily break 7:50.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Five Guys. In & Out is nothing special

I'm going with Smashburger because their burgers are juicy and really tasty, their fries are perfect, and they have the best chocolate milkshake, made the way they're supposed to be made, with ice cream, milk and chocolate syrup.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Rather surprised it's not faster around the N'ring (M3 GTS per SportAuto 18 secs faster than std E92 MT), as the powerband is "superior" to the M3 GTS, 0-60, and 0-1000m are significantly faster than the GTS, advances in software/damping, suspension, and fewer drivetrain losses, and they're probably referring to the absolute best BMW factory times. 7:50-7:55 is fast for a sedan, but thought it would have been more.

At any rate, thx for asking that question to the BMW engineers and getting an answer!

Keep in mind that the GTS is equipped with R-comp tires... not quite fair to compare the lap times of the GTS on r-comps to the F8X with street tires.

[signes]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Keep in mind that the GTS is equipped with R-comp tires... not quite fair to compare the lap times of the GTS on r-comps to the F8X with street tires.

Was about to post the same thing. Around a track the length of the 'ring that accounts for a lot of time. Put those same Corsas on the F8x and then compare times.

[phoenixbmwlife]

I predict a ring time of 7:43 sec.

[FogCityM3]

Yes, true, though as someone stated earlier, the E92 tested didn't have updated software, latest tires, DCT, ZCP (latter stated by BMW engineers at the as 'measurably faster' vs the std car lol) so again performance of new platform seems to be more incremental vs what the straight line stats and tech advancements would suggest (I thought would be more equivalent of mid 7:40s and think that was one of Swamps simulations). Though maybe the engineers are using the 10+ sec benchmark vs the last best iteration of the E9x (zcp, dct, tires, software). We'll find out from SportAuto.

The Road and Track quote from that M engineer about new F8x being tricky on a track is a little troubling--surprised that he would even feel the need to make a statement like that at the car's debut. Makes you wonder what the actual M engineers really feel about the strategic direction of M.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Keep in mind that the GTS is equipped with R-comp tires... not quite fare to compare the lap times of the GTS on r-comps to the F8X with street tires.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Yes, true, though as someone stated earlier, the E92 tested didn't have updated software, latest tires, DCT, ZCP (latter stated by BMW engineers at the as 'measurably faster' vs the std car lol) so again performance of new platform seems to be more incremental vs what the straight line stats and tech advancements would suggest (I thought would be more equivalent of mid 7:40s and think that was one of Swamps simulations). Though maybe the engineers are using the 10+ sec benchmark vs the last best iteration of the E9x (zcp, dct, tires, software). We'll find out from SportAuto.

The Road and Track quote from that M engineer about new F8x being tricky on a track is a little troubling--surprised that he would even feel the need to make a statement like that at the car's debut. Makes you wonder what the actual M engineers really feel about the strategic direction of M.

Lol...so suddenly it was an "M engineer" who made the comment. Next it will be BMW's Board of Directors said they fired the M Division because they betrayed the direction the E9X guys said they should go.

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The Road and Track quote from that M engineer about new F8x being tricky on a track is a little troubling--surprised that he would even feel the need to make a statement like that at the car's debut. Makes you wonder what the actual M engineers really feel about the strategic direction of M.

I've been wondering the same thing about those comments. But he did mention the BMW driving schools, so maybe there's some marketing speak in there to get people to spend even more money.

Not necessarily a bad thing because the M driving school is a great experience and a good teaching tool.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

to keep it really simple, my point is this.

the e46 m3 was tested faster than BMW officially stated
the e92 m3 was tested faster than BMW officially stated

it stands to reason that the f8x would also test faster than BMW officially stated. considering that, I think its fair to assume that the f8x m3 will be significantly quicker because BMW quotes it as such.

it may run less than 4 secs 0-60, but I do expect the difference in times on average to be around what BMW states, which is .5 seconds

and yea, I am enthusiastic about the car, but its not perfect for sure. the styling of the front end is still not my favorite, and the size of the car is a little larger than id prefer.

but overall, I think its an improvement on the things I personally thought could be better on the e9x m3

I'll use 0-60mph numbers because that is the data I have readily available.

BMW quoted 4.8s for the E46. Pulling old magazines from my bookshelf, the test numbers are in the 4.6-4.8 range. Slightly better, but still close to BMW numbers.

BMW quoted 4.7s for a 6MT E92, a 0.1s improvement compared to the E46. Again, pulling old magazines from my bookshelf, the test numbers are in the 4.1-4.5 range for 6MT cars. Averaging to about a 0.5s improvement over the E46. BMW was clearly very conservative with the E92 numbers.

Now BMW claim a 4.1s sprint to 60mph for a 6MT F82, that would be a 0.6 improvement over the E92. I seriously doubt we will see a 3.5s time for a 6MT F8X (DCT maybe, but not 6MT). It seems to me that BMW is not being as conservative with the F8X numbers as they were with the E92.

To me, 0-60mph (or 0-100km/h) is not that important of a metric anyway. I am just under the impression that BMW is ///Marketing the F8X very hard.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The Road and Track quote from that M engineer about new F8x being tricky on a track is a little troubling--surprised that he would even feel the need to make a statement like that at the car's debut. Makes you wonder what the actual M engineers really feel about the strategic direction of M.

To me, that statement is utterly meaningless.

I have talked to enough corporate folks at car shows that don't know squat about the cars on display and just say anything to look smart.

[FogCityM3]

So what was the story behind Gerhard Richter's departure?

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Lol...so suddenly it was an "M engineer" who made the comment. Next it will be BMW's Board of Directors said they fired the M Division because they betrayed the direction the E9X guys said they should go.

[FogCityM3]

Maybe.... or maybe not, weird thing for any corporate folks to say in any industry.

At any rate can't wait for the inevitable comparison tests of old vs. new!

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

To me, that statement is utterly meaningless.

I have talked to enough corporate folks at car shows that don't know squat about the cars on display and just say anything to look smart.

[basscadet]

Not a bad time, especially considering the car is more efficient now.

But I can't buy one of these in good conscience because Mercedes and Cadillac are changing the game with cars that have shed even more weight than the M3 and are coming with monster motors that will really open eyes. (turbo v8!).

Buying a M3 now is welcoming buyer's remorse...need to evaluate these 3 cars equally first.

[Black Gold]

Maybe they have shed more weight but the still weigh more, maybe a lot more.

Also, typically the m3 has more extensive chassis changes and tends to handle better.

We will see. Great time to be a car guy for sure

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Not a bad time, especially considering the car is more efficient now.

But I can't buy one of these in good conscience because Mercedes and Cadillac are changing the game with cars that have shed even more weight than the M3 and are coming with monster motors that will really open eyes. (turbo v8!).

Buying a M3 now is welcoming buyer's remorse...need to evaluate these 3 cars equally first.

Well sure if you are open to Merc or Cadillac.

Otherwise, if you want a BMW there won't be any buyer's remorse going on.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

To me, that statement is utterly meaningless.

I have talked to enough corporate folks at car shows that don't know squat about the cars on display and just say anything to look smart.

This. Was probably just some marketing guy trying to sound cool.

And he didn't say "tricky on track," he said "doesn't tolerate sloppy throttle inputs." Big difference. Responsive engines take precise inputs to drive smoothly. The E46 and E92 6MT can both be pretty jerky if not driven with at least SOME finesse. Now give that super responsive engine a ton of low end torque and it's going to be even more demanding to drive smoothly. This should be obvious, and if anything, speaks to the response and power of the engine, unrelated to it's limit behavior on a race track.

If you're driving a brand new M3 on the track, you should, at the very least, have some concept of basic throttle modulation. If not, you're probably one of those guys who wraps his new Lambo around the first telephone pole out of the dealers lot.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Steering "feel" really doesn't mean anything tangible. Steering feel is made up of a few different components:

1. Steering effort and torque gradient (on-center and off-center)
2. Response linearity
3. Road input transmissibility
4. Steering wheel torque feedback at the limits of adhesion


Part of the reason that EPS systems don't perform as well as Hydraulic systems is that the computer control gives the engineers LOTS of toys to play with. Features like understeer mitigation, lane-keeping, road crown and alignment compensation all basically make small changes to your steering command before it makes its way to the wheels. This results in an artificial disconnected feeling that so many cars are plagued with today.

Further, the market demands a pretty high level of refinement these days, so the engineers will do whatever they can to filter out ANY vibration that may make its way to the steering wheel. This takes away quite a bit of road feel, but that's what the market requires these days.

EPS typically has very good response characteristics. The problem is that tuning the steering torque gradient to match this response can be tricky, even more so when you also have to incorporate all the above "features" and meet low steering effort targets.

BMW has stated that they aren't using any of these technologies in the new M3, and that alone should go a LONG way to improve steering feel over the F30.

Finally, there's a learning curve. We're only human, and it takes time to figure out the best way to apply and tune all the technology that we've developed. I'm confident that we won't even be having this EPS discussion within a generation or two. I'm expecting that the F8x will be 90% there already.

This guy truly gets it. I don't know if you've tried any current Porsches with EPS but they use the same ZF system that BMW put in the F30. The behavior and feel is massively different because the two companies programmed the systems differently and obviously their cars are mechanically very different (totally different suspension geometry, wheel/tire size and weight, etc.). I was seriously worried by the idea of electronic power steering a year ago but now that I've lived with an F30 and test driven a couple 981/991 Porsches and a few other cars with EPS, I'm confident that within the next generation of cars this won't even be a point of contention anymore.

The comments from M saying they didn't program the EPS system to compensate for understeer or to help keep you in your lane or anything else have me very interested.

One more thing, I agree with what NeverConvicted said about the steering in the E92 M3. I believe that Servotronic is at least partly to blame for the good-not-great steering in this car. Before I got my M3, I had a 135i with M3 suspension and bushings but the standard hydraulic power steering system and the steering was so much nicer. I must have let at least a dozen M3 owners I know drive that 135i and we all agree that it felt more natural and direct. The E46 M3's steering felt nicer to me than my current E92 M3