SportAuto M4 CS against Mustang Shelby GT350

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by nike001

Yes it absolutely would. Imagine the C&D reviews saying how BMW got back to it's roots! lol. I'd take 360hp from an N/A I6 screaming towards 8K RPM (ahem, have you HEARD CSL airbox intake noises? Most glorious sounds in the world) any and every single day over the N55 with it's torque.

When was the last time you achieved your advertised/tested 0-60? 0-60 times are only good for C&D comparisons & the 17 year olds who read them.

The difference between the current M2 and decade old CSL is only 2-3 tenths of a second. I wouldn't call that trumping the CSL, and I'd still take that hit to have a good ole screaming N/A I6 under the hood. Hell, take the turbos off the S55 and throw that in there. The S55 is eerily similar to that of the S54 anyway.

It's not only about 0-60mph, that metric is pointless. The M2 increases that gap to 0.6 seconds to 100mph according to AMS test data. The M2 also has much more elasticity with much stronger in gear accelartion which will help it come out of corners stronger. And it does it while weighing 150kg more than the CSL to boot. Put the CSL's engine in the M2 and it would become a dog. All the reviews would say that the engine is glorious sounding and old school but how that S54 engined M2 does not stack up to its contemprary competition (think of the reviews the RC-F is getting).

And BTW, the M2 has a single turbo air-to-air intercooled N55, not a twin turbo air-to-water intercooled S55. The S55 is in a complete different league of performance compared to the S54 in the CSL.

Don't get me wrong, I really loved my E46 and E92, particularly their engines. I have tracked extensively all of them, and the M4 is the most enjoyable around a track. I find the S55 lacks soul compared to the S54 and S65, but it sure has performance to make that up.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I too drove a GT350. I'm in the process of selling my M3 to get one. The only thing holding me back is the resale value of the M3 which is beyond abysmal. As a guy who buys used cars, drives them for a year or two and sells them, I have never taken a bath on a car like I have this M3. Cannot find a dealership anywhere near me willing to offer more than 49k for my fully-optioned and pristine 2015.

Interesting, do you have a manual?

The dct cars here in so cal are sold in a few weeks. I was helping a friend look for a mineral gray one and we found nothing for months, or if we found one it was sold immediately. There are simply too few used ones for sale here in Los Angeles.

Did you consider a ZL1? Monster of a car, faster and better handling than the Shelby. Especially considering Ford is adding HP to the LCI 2018 Mustang that will zip it to 60 in less than 4 seconds (faster than the Shelby) and that they are adding the mag shocks similar to the shelby now in the v8 GT, plus 7.5k redline. GT350 doesn't seem like a bargain anymore.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Interesting, do you have a manual?

The dct cars here in so cal are sold in a few weeks. I was helping a friend look for a mineral gray one and we found nothing for months, or if we found one it was sold immediately. There are simply too few used ones for sale here in Los Angeles.

Did you consider a ZL1? Monster of a car, faster and better handling than the Shelby. Especially considering Ford is adding HP to the LCI 2018 Mustang that will zip it to 60 in less than 4 seconds (faster than the Shelby) and that they are adding the mag shocks similar to the shelby now in the v8 GT, plus 7.5k redline. GT350 doesn't seem like a bargain anymore.

The ZL1 is losing reviews on subjective "fun to drive" attributes when compared to the GT350. It is very close in handling as well, it makes up for it though with that monster of an engine.

It is a hell of car though for the money from a performance standpoint. I sat in one in May when I was replacing my 16 tech pack. They were going to let me test drive it, but I didn't even bother as I couldn't get over the coffin like cabin. The interior actually is fairly nice, but I didn't like the layout at all.

If people looking for the best bargain/bang for the buck I think it is the Camaro SS 1LE package. I think you can still get those in the low 40s.

The GT350 isn't the fastest, especially in straight line speed and has many other drawbacks. But, it is going to be remembered as one of the most fun drivers cars that was made for our era. It's what keeps me in one even after the debacle that I went through with the 16. Note, I'm not saying it will be a classic. That gets thrown around way too much and nobody really knows what will and won't be. Well unless you are a M4 GTS owner than of course that will be a no doubter.

[ClothSeats]

The SS 1LE is around 40k, give or take a couple grand, depending on region and whether or not it has the data recorder option. I think they are not making too much money on this model as you have to get an M4 CS to find a comparable chassis setup from Germany. The suspension is extremely well composed.

I drove the M3 and M4 last weekend and my opinion is they are not quite as fun as the higher-end V8 American cars, but very competitive or better versus their rivals from Audi, MB, and Lexus. I don't think BMW takes Ford & GM seriously and they will especially not benchmark GT350s or ZL1s which aren't even sold in Europe.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by minn19

The ZL1 is losing reviews on subjective "fun to drive" attributes when compared to the GT350. It is very close in handling as well, it makes up for it though with that monster of an engine.

It is a hell of car though for the money from a performance standpoint. I sat in one in May when I was replacing my 16 tech pack. They were going to let me test drive it, but I didn't even bother as I couldn't get over the coffin like cabin. The interior actually is fairly nice, but I didn't like the layout at all.

If people looking for the best bargain/bang for the buck I think it is the Camaro SS 1LE package. I think you can still get those in the low 40s.

The GT350 isn't the fastest, especially in straight line speed and has many other drawbacks. But, it is going to be remembered as one of the most fun drivers cars that was made for our era. It's what keeps me in one even after the debacle that I went through with the 16. Note, I'm not saying it will be a classic. That gets thrown around way too much and nobody really knows what will and won't be. Well unless you are a M4 GTS owner than of course that will be a no doubter.

Always good to hear from you bud.

I'm at a loss at the lack of love for the zl1, since by all metrics and times it takes a pretty big turd on even the Shelby GT350R. I don't think many owners of these shelby's that paid above and beyond MSRP are laughing now.

If the complaints are the layout of the interior, the "fun to drive" part, those are familiar refrains that I've heard people accuse M3 owners of fanboyism.

I'm just picking on you of course, but it cuts both ways.

Ring times: ZL1 7:16. GT350R 7:32

[minn19]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Always good to hear from you bud.

I'm at a loss at the lack of love for the zl1, since by all metrics and times it takes a pretty big turd on even the Shelby GT350R. I don't think many owners of these shelby's that paid above and beyond MSRP are laughing now.

If the complaints are the layout of the interior, the "fun to drive" part, those are familiar refrains that I've heard people accuse M3 owners of fanboyism.

I'm just picking on you of course, but it cuts both ways.

Ring times: ZL1 7:16. GT350R 7:32

You to! There is no official factory ring time for the GT350R like GM does for their cars.

I totally here you and the trust me I wanted to like the ZL1 because it is a monster for a really nice price. But, for me it isn't always about the numbers or nicer interior. If that was the case I would've just stuck with my civic DCT M4 as that obviously had a much better cabin and from a stand 0-60 time it crushes the GT350, especially in real world launches etc.

I didn't even bother test driving it because I didn't want to waste the salesmans time. Like I said, it was actually a very nice interior for the ZL1, but I knew I couldn't live with the quirks of the layout. Not to mention the real complaints about visibility etc, it has blind spot monitoring, but I still like to change lanes the old fashioned way by looking..........sometimes.

If I was to get a car that all I cared about was numbers, repeatable lap times and the nicest interior..........I'd just get a version of the 911. Which depending on where the M4 CS is priced, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just get a Carrera S or GTS for the price. And trust me I'm no fanboy for Porsche.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

So making the M4 better requires only minor suspension tweaks and differential + brake firmware updates?
Why doesn't BMW apply those changes to all M4s?

Apparently BMW has been quietly updating the base cars as well through the years, if mag articles are to be believed.

There are many factors contributing for the CS IMO: alignment (big factor for a stock M4), increased traction from the PSC2, then maybe the SW tweaks to the shocks and diff come in as well.

Since the ZCP shock/diff tweaks can be retrofitted to base cars 2016 and above, there is a good chance the CS tweaks could be too. My car is a 15 so no dice for me, but give it a try, what is there to lose.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I too drove a GT350. I'm in the process of selling my M3 to get one. The only thing holding me back is the resale value of the M3 which is beyond abysmal. As a guy who buys used cars, drives them for a year or two and sells them, I have never taken a bath on a car like I have this M3. Cannot find a dealership anywhere near me willing to offer more than 49k for my fully-optioned and pristine 2015.

Silly rabbit ... F80 and F82 are lease cars. Top to bottom from the 320 to M4 ZCP.

You bought a used one"for a couple of years" as opposed to simply leasing a brand new one ?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by adc

Apparently BMW has been quietly updating the base cars as well through the years, if mag articles are to be believed.

There are many factors contributing for the CS IMO: alignment (big factor for a stock M4), increased traction from the PSC2, then maybe the SW tweaks to the shocks and diff come in as well.

Since the ZCP shock/diff tweaks can be retrofitted to base cars 2016 and above, there is a good chance the CS tweaks could be too. My car is a 15 so no dice for me, but give it a try, what is there to lose.

AKA development.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by adc

Apparently BMW has been quietly updating the base cars as well through the years, if mag articles are to be believed.

There are many factors contributing for the CS IMO: alignment (big factor for a stock M4), increased traction from the PSC2, then maybe the SW tweaks to the shocks and diff come in as well.

Since the ZCP shock/diff tweaks can be retrofitted to base cars 2016 and above, there is a good chance the CS tweaks could be too. My car is a 15 so no dice for me, but give it a try, what is there to lose.

I wonder if they finally got the MDM mode to work better or loosened up for the US cars. It amazed me that there were still complaints about the TC and MDM modes even in the GTS. That was one of my major complaints about my civic M3 and M4.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Silly rabbit ... F80 and F82 are lease cars. Top to bottom from the 320 to M4 ZCP.

There is one exception to the rule.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by minn19

You to! There is no official factory ring time for the GT350R like GM does for their cars.

I totally here you and the trust me I wanted to like the ZL1 because it is a monster for a really nice price. But, for me it isn't always about the numbers or nicer interior. If that was the case I would've just stuck with my civic DCT M4 as that obviously had a much better cabin and from a stand 0-60 time it crushes the GT350, especially in real world launches etc.

I didn't even bother test driving it because I didn't want to waste the salesmans time. Like I said, it was actually a very nice interior for the ZL1, but I knew I couldn't live with the quirks of the layout. Not to mention the real complaints about visibility etc, it has blind spot monitoring, but I still like to change lanes the old fashioned way by looking..........sometimes.

If I was to get a car that all I cared about was numbers, repeatable lap times and the nicest interior..........I'd just get a version of the 911. Which depending on where the M4 CS is priced, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just get a Carrera S or GTS for the price. And trust me I'm no fanboy for Porsche.

I'll agree with you on one thing for sure, the base 911 price is an anomaly right now.

I have no doubt prices will jump soon, because at 115k decently equipped, it is a relative steal for German sports cars.

To each their own, and I have nothing but respect for our different values towards cars.

Variety has proven to be a boon for sports car enthusiats, with NA, Supercharged, Turbo, RWD, AWD, big v8's, small I4's, Electric, Hybrids, etc. Good God what time to be driving whatever it is you love.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Silly rabbit ... F80 and F82 are lease cars. Top to bottom from the 320 to M4 ZCP.

You bought a used one"for a couple of years" as opposed to simply leasing a brand new one ?

I don't want to keep a car for 3 years. I get bored too quickly.

Never thought that the value of a M3 with low miles would drop $15,000 from year 1 to year 3. I barely put 6000 miles on it. I bought a Mustang brand new at sticker back in 2015 and sold it after one year and maybe lost $4000 total on that one.

So much for BMW resale value. Jesus.

[MKParris]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I too drove a GT350. I'm in the process of selling my M3 to get one. The only thing holding me back is the resale value of the M3 which is beyond abysmal. As a guy who buys used cars, drives them for a year or two and sells them, I have never taken a bath on a car like I have this M3. Cannot find a dealership anywhere near me willing to offer more than 49k for my fully-optioned and pristine 2015.

Same here. (mine isnt fully optioned tho)

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by MKParris

Same here. (mine isnt fully optioned tho)

The thing is, I don't think they are off. I've had my car on CarGurus for 2 weeks at $53k and have not had a single email. Their offer of $50k is as strong as I am going to get. Dealer won't budget from $3k over sticker for the GT350. That's what irks me.

25k miles, all options but ceramic brakes. Sucks being in the midwest.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by basscadet

The thing is, I don't think they are off. I've had my car on CarGurus for 2 weeks at $53k and have not had a single email. Their offer of $50k is as strong as I am going to get. Dealer won't budget from $3k over sticker for the GT350. That's what irks me.

25k miles, all options but ceramic brakes. Sucks being in the midwest.

I obviously don't know the ins and outs of your negotiations, but if they are giving you that for your M.....they should be giving you MSRP on the GT350. The market is still decently strong, but is definitely softened to MSRP and maybe just below for non R GT350s. If you can look around outstate and you'll mind an MSRP deal quickly. Or just tell them you are going to do that and they might cave, if you haven't already.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I don't want to keep a car for 3 years. I get bored too quickly.

Never thought that the value of a M3 with low miles would drop $15,000 from year 1 to year 3. I barely put 6000 miles on it. I bought a Mustang brand new at sticker back in 2015 and sold it after one year and maybe lost $4000 total on that one.

So much for BMW resale value. Jesus.

Most M cars really hold their value.

as stated previously ... as bmw really tried to retain the luxury car sales crown vs Mercedes, they have gone to lease deals.

Those flood the used car market with 36-39 month old cars. Your strategy of buying a 1-2 year old car and then dumping it after you get bored with it played you right into the lease return crowd. The dealer has plenty coming in off lease .. why do they need to buy yours ?

This is pretty much really hitting home with the F80/F82.. the E9x M cars had a unique motor in the V8 which kinda kept it immune to the same sort of leasing strategy..

The LCI strategy from BMW as well as the fact that the M3/M4 usually enjoy continuous development across their cycle (GTS... ZCP... now CS... next up is GT or what ever ) means that a used one is less favorable than a new one.

Lots or people lease F30/80/82 and then come back for the LCI on a second lease.

[JAK]

Not sure if this was mentioned but the base GT350 has standard non magnaride dampers...

[conradb2]

No track pack on the mustang and using far stickier compound tires on the M4. Yeah, real fair. This is a joke of a comparison. If anyone thinks the M4 really is that much faster, they're wrong. After years of track work, I am confident to suggest that the M4 MAY be as fast as the GT350, if not slightly slower on most tracks.

Also, price difference means something. Anyone who wants to do track work could buy a Z06 Corvette with Z07 pack and run circles around the M4 for less than what the M4 CS will sell for. Camaro Z/28? ZL1 Camaro? Camaro SS 1LE? CTS-V? CTS-V? Used Viper ACR may be around the price point now?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by conradb2

No track pack on the mustang and using far stickier compound tires on the M4. Yeah, real fair. This is a joke of a comparison. If anyone thinks the M4 really is that much faster, they're wrong. After years of track work, I am confident to suggest that the M4 MAY be as fast as the GT350, if not slightly slower on most tracks.

Also, price difference means something. Anyone who wants to do track work could buy a Z06 Corvette with Z07 pack and run circles around the M4 for less than what the M4 CS will sell for. Camaro Z/28? ZL1? CTS-V? CTS-V? Used Viper ACR may be around the price point now?

That's a wrong assessment. Even on comparable tires, performance metrics indicate an M4 will either match or be faster than a base GT350 around a track. A GT350R is a different story though.

[conradb2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That's a wrong assessment. Even on comparable tires, all metrics indicate an M4 will be faster than a base GT350 around a track. A GT350R is a different story though.

Cup 2 tires will knock off around 2 seconds a lap on most circuits alone. Couple that with the lack of the track pack, and you're looking at exactly the performance figures I said.

[ixse]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That's a wrong assessment. Even on comparable tires, performance metrics indicate an M4 will either match or be faster than a base GT350 around a track. A GT350R is a different story though.

If you want to calculate comparable metrics, substract 15% of lap time for going cup2 from pss. Thats usually how much faster cup2 is. See where the lap time stands

Gt350 has its quirks though.. i recently made vid on it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AwRTkAGvhpQ