CAR Magazine: M4 CS vs Guilia QV drag race

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Always with the excuses...

You can dream as much as you want, but a CS on cup tires will always be faster on track in similar conditions than a Giulia QV. Period.

Even if no such comparo exists, I can also confidently say that, on similar tires, a base or CP M3/4 will also be faster than a QV around a track by a significant margin.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You can dream as much as you want, but a CS on cup tires will always be faster on track in similar conditions than a Giulia QV. Period.

Even if no such comparo exists, I can also confidently say that, on similar tires, a base or CP M3/4 will also be faster than a QV around a track by a significant margin.

The real test would be putting the QV on normal street tires and running a comparison. People like the feel and responsiveness down to the steering due to the inherent characteristics of softer compound tires which would be the same on any sports car with a somewhat beefy suspension. A bigger more subtle issue brewing beneath the surface is whether guys and companies will want to keep their AR franchise. Looks like some with the franchise are still not stocking AR cars and perhaps a few of these franchises will be for sell soon due to lack luster sales and apparently no money on the service side the way AR has structured it.

[M-Pilot]

Here is another comparison by Randy:

Alfa is on R-comps and ZCP is on PSSs. On the same day and same street tires , ZCP will definitely be quicker than the QV.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Always with the excuses...

Originally Posted by mcc3456

Always with the excuses...

Right - just like your persistent Germanic bias comments

Both great cars. Alfa wins most straight-line tests (with the glaring exception of the CS) and M3/M4 are faster in most track tests (same day, same driver)...

[Golfster]

The January edition of Car and Driver featured the Alpha and included comparison results with the M3 CP along with the other usual suspects. The Alpha beat the M3 CP in acceleration and road holding. The Audi RS3 beat the Alpha in 0-60 acceleration and tied in road holding while the M3 CP handily beat the Infiniti Q50 Red 400 Sport in both categories.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by Golfster

The January edition of Car and Driver featured the Alpha and included comparison results with the M3 CP along with the other usual suspects. The Alpha beat the M3 CP in acceleration and road holding. The Audi RS3 beat the Alpha in 0-60 acceleration and tied in road holding while the M3 CP handily beat the Infiniti Q50 Red 400 Sport in both categories.

I did see that too.

I think it is interesting the ZCP dyno charts show reduced torque at lower rpms vs the civic M3, which in many tests slows the 0-60 times a bit, for more control. See C and D previous civic M3 tests that have 3.8 second 0-60 results with similar or a smidge faster 1/4 times- 12.0-12.1 vs 12.2.

That being, I would expect the Guilia to be much faster than that with almost 20% more hp and almost 10% more torque, with only a 4% heavier weight.

Nonetheless, I don't expect to be beating any QV's in a straight line at any speed.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I did see that too.

I think it is interesting the ZCP dyno charts show reduced torque at lower rpms vs the civic M3, which in many tests slows the 0-60 times a bit, for more control. See C and D previous civic M3 tests that have 3.8 second 0-60 results with similar or a smidge faster 1/4 times- 12.0-12.1 vs 12.2.

That being, I would expect the Guilia to be much faster than that with almost 20% more hp and almost 10% more torque, with only a 4% heavier weight.

Nonetheless, I don't expect to be beating any QV's in a straight line at any speed.

20 inch wheels could also account for a slight increase in acceleration times.

[whoop_ass]

Here is the problem and a massive problem, South Africa must have the shittiest Petrol ever!
the 95 ron is not even 95 ron I am pretty sure it equivalent to 89 MON in states.
the Gulia wont perform due to the higher octane required to get the most of the engine.
if you have seen stock m3/m4 timing maps it actually scary how much timing correction is taking place even on stock map.

the QV's make the extra power from Boost and well it's just cant on this Quality Fuel.
I am even sure the BMW would be quicker if give the correct octane.

all these High CR motors need good Quality Fuel to perform well.
The civic M3's and ZCP models make the same power at the wheels purely because they cant take advantage of the higher boost and timing of the ZCP.

its been proven in many tests by many magazine and online reviews that in a straight line the QV is faster than the M3/M4 ZCP

Given the correct octane a M4 CS run's 20 psi in the midrange compared to nearly 22psi of the Alfa.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by whoop_ass

Here is the problem and a massive problem, South Africa must have the shittiest Petrol ever!
the 95 ron is not even 95 ron I am pretty sure it equivalent to 89 MON in states.
the Gulia wont perform due to the higher octane required to get the most of the engine.
if you have seen stock m3/m4 timing maps it actually scary how much timing correction is taking place even on stock map.

the QV's make the extra power from Boost and well it's just cant on this Quality Fuel.
I am even sure the BMW would be quicker if give the correct octane.

all these High CR motors need good Quality Fuel to perform well.
The civic M3's and ZCP models make the same power at the wheels purely because they cant take advantage of the higher boost and timing of the ZCP.

its been proven in many tests by many magazine and online reviews that in a straight line the QV is faster than the M3/M4 ZCP

Given the correct octane a M4 CS run's 20 psi in the midrange compared to nearly 22psi of the Alfa.

I am not sure what the point is of this whole rambling.

Yes, a Giulia QV is faster in a straight line compared to a base or CP M3/4 due to two main factors: Grippier R-compound tires for a better launch and better power to weight for overall better acceleration.

Now, when a Giulia runs against an M4 CS, I expect it to be a much closer race since the CS also gets sticky r-comps and has a much beefier power curve than a CP M3/4. The improved power curve of the CS tune on the S55 puts it in Giulia QV and C63S territory. Exactly what we see in this video.

[whoop_ass]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure what the point is of this whole rambling.

Yes, a Giulia QV is faster in a straight line compared to a base or CP M3/4 due to two main factors: Grippier R-compound tires for a better launch and better power to weight for overall better acceleration.

Now, when a Giulia runs against an M4 CS, I expect it to be a much closer race since the CS also gets sticky r-comps and has a much beefier power curve than a CP M3/4. The improved power curve of the CS tune on the S55 puts it in Giulia QV and C63S territory. Exactly what we see in this video.

Well you not getting what i am saying
the reason its slower on the track is
1 : yes it's not running cup 2's like CS so it will be slower around a circuit with the less sticky rubber
2: octane, and it's no where near the power it's supposed to be producing, this will affect lap times.
even in straight line, it looses rather bad in this test.
and please note it's the only test where the QV has lost in a straight line to a BMW s55
It really should not be this bad when you consider the Alfa is nearly 35 more kw engine power compared to a CS.

from the same test.. look how badly the CS gets owned, even look at the 0-100 time is almost half a second slower than the claimed BMW time.
I am not defending the Alfa at all, as on many test they go into limp mode
but these cars are rely heavily on good high octane Fuel.

I don't doubt given that the CS and Guila on the same tires the CS would be faster, that is a given, around a circuit
but not in a straight line.
granted the above tests were all carried out on a level playing field.
ALL on shit 95 Ron.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by whoop_ass

Well you not getting what i am saying
the reason its slower on the track is
1 : yes it's not running cup 2's like CS so it will be slower around a circuit with the less sticky rubber
2: octane, and it's no where near the power it's supposed to be producing, this will affect lap times.
even in straight line, it looses rather bad in this test.
and please note it's the only test where the QV has lost in a straight line to a BMW s55
It really should not be this bad when you consider the Alfa is nearly 35 more kw engine power compared to a CS.

from the same test.. look how badly the CS gets owned, even look at the 0-100 time is almost half a second slower than the claimed BMW time.
I am not defending the Alfa at all, as on many test they go into limp mode
but these cars are rely heavily on good high octane Fuel.

I don't doubt given that the CS and Guila on the same tires the CS would be faster, that is a given, around a circuit
but not in a straight line.
granted the above tests were all carried out on a level playing field.
ALL on shit 95 Ron.

Maybe you missed out on the fact that the Giulia QV comes from the factory with P-Zero Corsa R-comp tires that actually have a lower tread wear rating the M4CS' PSC2 do. No excuse for the track times here.

The reason you have not yet seen an M3/4 beat a QV on acceleration before is because it is the first time a QV is pitted against a CS. I'll repeat it again, the CS' version of the S55 is quite a bit more potent than the one in the CP. The CS might be down on power but it makes up for it by less weight compared to the QV. The bad fuel excuse does not make sense, the M4 being also FI and of similar displacement would be similarly affected.

The CS got owned by the 991.2GTS because these new FI 911s are total acceleration beasts.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure what the point is of this whole rambling.

Yes, a Giulia QV is faster in a straight line compared to a base or CP M3/4 due to two main factors: Grippier R-compound tires for a better launch and better power to weight for overall better acceleration.

Now, when a Giulia runs against an M4 CS, I expect it to be a much closer race since the CS also gets sticky r-comps and has a much beefier power curve than a CP M3/4. The improved power curve of the CS tune on the S55 puts it in Giulia QV and C63S territory. Exactly what we see in this video.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...s-nurburgring/

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...s-nurburgring/

And your point is ?

Oh, that the only data point where the Giulia QV was substantially faster around a track than an M3/4 is from a factory test. Very valid data point indeed. I'll believe the Giulia QV 'ring time when Alfa provide a car to Auto Motor & Sport for them to supertest.

Have you seen this thread http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1461023 ?

[neilum]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And your point is ?

Oh, that the only data point where the Giulia QV was substantially faster around a track than an M3/4 is from a factory test. Very valid data point indeed. I'll believe the Giulia QV 'ring time when Alfa provide a car to Auto Motor & Sport for them to supertest.

Have you seen this thread http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1461023 ?

I don't think the AF fanboys, or people in general want to admit that the development of the F80 platform has been evolving and gotten better and better over the years, updates and models.

It seems to me most folks in that camp have just hung onto this "fact" or notion that the Alfa is superior, this is just the way it is, while just completely ignoring the constant updates and improvements BMW has been making.

Why it would be surprising the CS is a good bit faster when the Quad is about even with a Comp pack M3 despite the comp pack not wearing R tires. Put R tires on the CS plus all the other changes color me not shocked at all.

[mcc3456]

Originally Posted by neilum

I don't think the AF fanboys, or people in general want to admit that the development of the F80 platform has been evolving and gotten better and better over the years, updates and models.

It seems to me most folks in that camp have just hung onto this "fact" or notion that the Alfa is superior, this is just the way it is, while just completely ignoring the constant updates and improvements BMW has been making.

Why it would be surprising the CS is a good bit faster when the Quad is about even with a Comp pack M3 despite the comp pack not wearing R tires. Put R tires on the CS plus all the other changes color me not shocked at all.

In the third iteration after 5 model years of the M3, it is still slower than the first iteration of the Quadrifoglio. Personally, I don’t care about track times as much as the BMW fanboys, who can’t even reach their cars full potential, but think owning one makes them Lewis Hamilton. Frankly, the amount of excuses and rationalization is very funny to me to read. Only in BMW fantasyland...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mcc3456

In the third iteration after 5 model years of the M3, it is still slower than the first iteration of the Quadrifoglio. Personally, I don’t care about track times as much as the BMW fanboys, who can’t even reach their cars full potential, but think owning one makes them Lewis Hamilton. Frankly, the amount of excuses and rationalization is very funny to me to read. Only in BMW fantasyland...

When pot meets kettle...

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

When pot meets kettle...

To the point of spending this much time on a forum for a car he does not own. Sound like deep seeded insecurity complex or momma didn't provide enough attention when young.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by neilum

I don't think the AF fanboys, or people in general want to admit that the development of the F80 platform has been evolving and gotten better and better over the years, updates and models.

It seems to me most folks in that camp have just hung onto this "fact" or notion that the Alfa is superior, this is just the way it is, while just completely ignoring the constant updates and improvements BMW has been making.

Now, now, give credit where credit is due. AR has been hard at work the last couple of years on their updates of the QV. I think now you can go a full lap without going into limp mode.

Makes me wonder how many QVs they needed to piece together that phony Ring time...

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

To the point of spending this much time on a forum for a car he does not own. Sound like deep seeded insecurity complex or momma didn't provide enough attention when young.

Didn't this dude already get himself banned once for trolling this forum? I think it's that time again...

[LLNM4]

Today i had red Guilia QV on the rear bumper and i went flat out on the highway.
He couldn't overtake me. His initial thoughts were.. a civic M4 and probably stock ..
The front of the QV wasn't a menacing presence in my rear mirror.
The rear of the QV on the other hand, was very impressive with the diffusor.
I know, a tuned QV (620hp) would have walked me.

[BMWM4_SA]

I don't know how many reviewers already complained about the Alpha and its reliability, so it maybe faster than a M4 ZCP or NON ZCP. But do you really want a car that doesn't know what time of the month it is ?

Sorry Alpha fan boys

[rexb16]

lol, why does mcc3456 think he has to be capt save-a-hoe for the QV? give it up bruh, the F80 is simply a better tool for the job.

[Kimeran]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again... CARS mag really don't know how to drive cars properly.
Deon Joubert however, does know his way around a steering wheel.
The way the CS went by the Alfa in the drag race video tells me that there was something wrong with the Alfa. You would need a massive advantage in traction (4wd vs rwd probably) or massive advantage in power to pass it like that

I have driven that circuit as well, and it is a very tight and twisty circuit. Designed more for drifting rather than circuit racing. I'm sure that would also play in favour of the CS