Chris Harris Drives: Merc-AMG GT R vs 911 GT3 RS vs BMW M4 GTS

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

The GT3 RS is still the better car but trashing the Gts like Chris Harris does? It is no longer car journalism...just bad reality TV.

I don't think I agree with this - folks in these mediums are entitled to their respective opinions, flair, style, etc. It's up to the viewer, reader, what have you to determine if the presenter is credible or not.

I have admired CH for a long time, and his opinion of three cars that I would likely never get a chance to drive is credible to me. He has no reason to trash the GTS without merit, from his perspective. He loved the 1M, loves the M2 and F80. He even had an F80 (and says it's better for him in the video) - that's perfectly reasonable, and not without a lot of people who agree.

It might not jive with the members of this board, for a multitude of reasons, but it doesn't mean that he is wrong.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Funny to see the difference from one review to the other...

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/07/19/bm...he-911-gt3-rs/

That is just one example. A lot of rave reviews of the Gts within the last year.
The GT3 RS is still the better car but trashing the Gts like Chris Harris does? It is no longer car journalism...just bad reality TV.

It is funny that Harris was the golden boy saviour of these forums when he came out with glowing reviews of the regular M3/4. But now because he doesn't like the GTS he gets personally attacked in a variety of different ways.

Why can't it be possible that he just doesn't like the car? It isn't the first car (or manufacturer) that he has reviewed in this manner. I think it shows he is unbiased and reviews each car based on its own merits in his opinion. Which, is what a good car reviewer/journalist should do.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That is not an accurate statement. The E46 M3 CSL was in fact marginally faster than the GT3 of its era while being significantly less expensive and more practical to boot. That was quite a feat to achieve .

And yet in the markets that it was sold it was a sales flop, derided as being too expensive and not good enough to justify the price, they sat around dealerships and had to be discounted to clear.

Roll on 14 years and it's a classic and everyone raves about them, it's the M3 way.....

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by BarryB

Thanks for the education and hence the "to my knowledge" qualification. (but the GTS still is less than the GT3 but maybe by not as much as before?)

That is actually, factually not correct. The 996 GT3 was equipped with Summer tires whereas the CSL was equipped with Cup tires giving it significant advtanges in grip over the GT3s summers, yet the GT3 was still faster on most tracks. Equal out the tires and it's not close.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hpl1rdf20e2t

Lap Times 8

M3 CSL 911 GT3
Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (pre 2004) 1:19.95 1:19.40
Oschersleben 1:46.60 1:47.60
Nürburgring Nordschleife 7:50.00 7:54.00
Hockenheim Short 1:13.50 1:13.20
Twin Ring Motegi East 1:38.28 1:37.43
Tsukuba 1:06.88 1:05.29
Top Gear Track 1:28.00 1:27.20
Motovision handling course. 0:18:94 0:19:49


And as for the 991 GT3 vs M4 GTS, look around at times, because the GT3 was already 3 years old when the M4 came out and its still well behind in most every comparison or track. In fact it's also quite a bit slower than your basic Carrera S wearing summer tires. The GT3 was I believe 4 seconds per lap faster at Laguna Seca, 3 seconds faster at VIR and a whopping 7 seconds faster at Ballocco and there are plenty more examples. Not with the 991.2 GT3, even further apart.

[BarryB]

Originally Posted by Wills2

And yet in the markets that it was sold it was a sales flop, derided as being too expensive and not good enough to justify the price, they sat around dealerships and had to be discounted to clear.

Roll on 14 years and it's a classic and everyone raves about them, it's the M3 way.....

Sounds like the gts way....

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by minn19

It is funny that Harris was the golden boy saviour of these forums when he came out with glowing reviews of the regular M3/4. But now because he doesn't like the GTS he gets personally attacked in a variety of different ways.

Why can't it be possible that he just doesn't like the car? It isn't the first car (or manufacturer) that he has reviewed in this manner. I think it shows he is unbiased and reviews each car based on its own merits in his opinion. Which, is what a good car reviewer/journalist should do.

Same as everything else around here. It's all fine and dandy if you love the M3/4 but anyone who calls it like it is (bad steering, awful engine/exhaust note, terrible suspension, cheap quality, average transmissions) gets flamed.
The idolatry of Harris was off the charts until he told everyone he thought the M4 GTS was garbage.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by Wills2

And yet in the markets that it was sold it was a sales flop, derided as being too expensive and not good enough to justify the price, they sat around dealerships and had to be discounted to clear.

Roll on 14 years and it's a classic and everyone raves about them, it's the M3 way.....

Who said it was too expensive to justify the price ??

Remember watching top gear and fifth gear and both those reviews were extremely positive. Can you point me to other reviews which said otherwise.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Gatte

Who said it was too expensive to justify the price ??

Remember watching top gear and fifth gear and both those reviews were extremely positive. Can you point me to other reviews which said otherwise.

The punters that had to pony up for them in the UK, they didn't/couldn't sell all the units they had allocated so ended up discounting them.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

That is actually, factually not correct. The 996 GT3 was equipped with Summer tires whereas the CSL was equipped with Cup tires giving it significant advtanges in grip over the GT3s summers, yet the GT3 was still faster on most tracks. Equal out the tires and it's not close.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hpl1rdf20e2t

Lap Times 8

M3 CSL 911 GT3
Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (pre 2004) 1:19.95 1:19.40
Oschersleben 1:46.60 1:47.60
Nürburgring Nordschleife 7:50.00 7:54.00
Hockenheim Short 1:13.50 1:13.20
Twin Ring Motegi East 1:38.28 1:37.43
Tsukuba 1:06.88 1:05.29
Top Gear Track 1:28.00 1:27.20
Motovision handling course. 0:18:94 0:19:49


And as for the 991 GT3 vs M4 GTS, look around at times, because the GT3 was already 3 years old when the M4 came out and its still well behind in most every comparison or track. In fact it's also quite a bit slower than your basic Carrera S wearing summer tires. The GT3 was I believe 4 seconds per lap faster at Laguna Seca, 3 seconds faster at VIR and a whopping 7 seconds faster at Ballocco and there are plenty more examples. Not with the 991.2 GT3, even further apart.

The 996 GT3 facelift was released AFTER the M3 CSL, hence my comment is accurate. When comparing stock cars, they need to be compared with whatever tires they came with. Further, even the 996 GT3 facelift that then also came with R-comp tires did not completely trump the M3 CSL, with the CSL remaining faster on some tracks. And, as I already mentioned, the CSL was significantly less expensive and more practical as a DD than the GT3. Quite a feat IMO.

I agree about the M4 GTS not being able to be faster than the 991.1 GT3 in any test thus far. And this despite matching the GT3 price and losing its DD practicality, that is my whole point.

And I know it is poinless debating with you, since you are P-car fanboi and connot consider anything with any objectivity .

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The 996 GT3 facelift was released AFTER the M3 CSL, hence my comment is accurate. When comparing stock cars, they need to be compared with whatever tires they came with. Further, even the 996 GT3 facelift that then also came with R-comp tires did not completely trump the M3 CSL, with the CSL remaining faster on some tracks. And, as I already mentioned, the CSL was significantly less expensive and more practical as a DD than the GT3. Quite a feat IMO.

I agree about the M4 GTS not being able to be faster than the 991.1 GT3 in any test thus far. And this despite matching the GT3 price and losing its DD practicality, that is my whole point.

And I know it is poinless debating with you, since you are P-car fanboi and connot consider anything with any objectivity .

The 2004 GT3 came with PS2s. There was also a 986 GT3 RS which was even faster. But my point is still the same, one was on cups and the other street yet the GT3 on street tires still beats it a majority of the time and on equal tires it's not close.
Wait, so in most threads you will be the first to point out that the Giulia QV is in cups and the M3/4 on summe tires now you're saying they need to be compared as they come equipped?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

The 2004 GT3 came with PS2s. There was also a 986 GT3 RS which was even faster. But my point is still the same, one was on cups and the other street yet the GT3 on street tires still beats it a majority of the time and on equal tires it's not close.
Wait, so in most threads you will be the first to point out that the Giulia QV is in cups and the M3/4 on summe tires now you're saying they need to be compared as they come equipped?

Yes, that's how they need to be compared. And the M3 is able to be a match for the QV DESPITE the power and tire dissadvantage.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Yes, that's how they need to be compared. And the M3 is able to be a match for the QV DESPITE the power and tire dissadvantage.

Agreed, which is why I said despite being on inferior tires the 996 bests it on most tracks and on equal tires would only be that much faster than it already is.
I do think it's a viable argument as I always mention the fact that a 991.2S beats the M4 GTS despite being down significantly on power, torque, downforce and at a tire disadvantage.

[VCP]

So what exactly are you saying?? Over and over. Can you provide a track with lap times with you behind the wheel of the GTS and the 991.2?

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Agreed, which is why I said despite being on inferior tires the 996 bests it on most tracks and on equal tires would only increase the gap and be faster on those it wasn't.
I do think it's a viable argument as I always mention the fact that a 991.2S beats the M4 GTS despite being down significantly on power, torque, downforce and at a tire disadvantage.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Man, come out In to the real world will you. I have yet to see or meet them superior cars and I am on many tracks all over. Not that I dont see these superior cars, but they are not up to that magazine pace you rambling on about.

Bla, bla, we know Its drivers related right?!

Who know, some day I might meet that dude who pedal his bike well then. But untill now, I aint seen any. Could you Please get out of bed In to the real world will you. Its not all about Whats In your magazine, is It 🙄

You must stopp refere every thing to that magazine you read.
To that test that was done! Its not a reference out in real life just due to It was done in test. Like do you really belive all and every 991.2 out will smoke a GTS on track? No, its not like It will happen all and every time due to you read that It did, that day with that same driver. Real world track driving Is far of what happen that day In that magazine test.

Yes, yes..we know all these superior cars, but Its different when their accual owners drive on track right? If I smoke that superior Mb GT-R next trackday I go to In a few days-Do you relly think the owner will flash his magazine (like you on the forum) to me In pitlane...and mention that his car Is accually faster still😂

Do you really think that will happen? No, that place, right there In pitlane, In the real world when he got smoked - that magazine of yours, well the value of It there Is Zero! Nothing, And the owner of that MB GT-R would be very Impressed of the M4 GTS.
You know, this Is real world shit and you know nothing about It.
Sorry for my French.

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Agreed, which is why I said despite being on inferior tires the 996 bests it on most tracks and on equal tires would only increase the gap and be faster on those it wasn't.
I do think it's a viable argument as I always mention the fact that a 991.2S beats the M4 GTS despite being down significantly on power, torque, downforce and at a tire disadvantage.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Like aero and chassi make no difference, well just now a 991 GT3 RS MR Is king on the ring..car Is lower down and better aero vs stock RS. (Remind me of M4 GTS street set vs track sett, in aero and chassie ) Stock 991 RS Sport auto did lap 7.28min. This suspension KW 3 ways( same as on M4 GTS as Its also KW 3 ways) drop down car and better aero sport auto just lap 7.09.5min. Remind me about Chris who drove the zero aero high In the air M4 GTS And Clarksson and a few others, like aero and suspension setting make no difference

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Oh, and The guys who Build this spec car are manthey racing, and Its Porsche who own them to 51%. Hence they know things, and get speed to cars. Like BMW M. To bad Its only crap car magazine guys who know nothing and belive aero and suspension setting make no difference on M4 GTS. Well Its more or less aero and suspension settings/height that make this Porsche offically Top dog on Nurburgring. (In the same way aero and chassie settings play a big part on how M4 GTS drive)

[Captain Unknown GT4]

So, next stepp now Is to manuall adjust and drop down my M4 GTS, as Its very possible to tune to better suit different tracks and driverstyle. Just like this manthey Porsche..

Like the last track I drove, small mickey mouse track my car will easy drive faster and keep tires better temp If I drop It even more down to ground, and Its possible. I now got reference lap times on many track how I drive my GTS stock M track setting. Now I could go futher and drive better and faster on many tracks. At least I belive I can improve on many GP track to stiffen up car and put lower down. (Vs stock factory track setting)

And also In the drop get slightly more camber.

Still my car Is stock after this right... So how could this M4 GTS be s bad car..I cant not understand that...Still my car got warranty. Aftermarket things to my car and It Kill my warranty. But I can tune and adjust stock and keep warranty - how can M4 GTS be a crap car?! I just do not get It! Well In the end Its some car magazine that do not understand GTS, Its to complex for them!

I now gone around many tracks In stock M suspension setting, now I can keep on exploring the cars limits and my limits. A car to grow In. How can It be bad. In many ways Porsche stock GT cars are less car than M4 GTS. Still 991 RS Its faster but you can not grow with It In stock form.

[minn19]

Are talking to anybody specifically or are you just trying to convince yourself........?

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Haha, yes, I was accually talking to all of them magazine drivers(its just a few accually) and, by that I mean not them direct. But the Mass of know nothing hangaround like your selfe.

People like yourself that never accually got any real experience. You rather just buy that magazine of Topgear. And there you have It, thats where your knowledge Is from.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Haha, yes, I was accually talking to all of them magazine drivers(its just a few accually) and, by that I mean not them direct. But the Mass of know nothing hangaround like your selfe.

People like yourself that never accually got any real experience. You rather just buy that magazine of Topgear. And there you have It, thats where your knowledge Is from.

I don't have nearly the track experience you do, but I do have some so no I don't believe everything the magazines say.

I do have a lot of experience in spotting bullshitters like your selfe as well though.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don't have nearly the track experience you do, but I do have some so no I don't believe everything the magazines say.

I do have a lot of experience in spotting bullshitters like your selfe as well though.

I can't even read his posts minn. I just skip right past. It's too much bullshit.

The grammar kills me as well. I understand English isn't the 1st language but it's still torture.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

The only one bullshitting Is Chris and Clarksson, and you do not see It, and I dont accually blame you..

You might notice when you go on track If rideheight Is 2 cm higher (vs low down) and If aero Is zero vs alot of downforce...well a car will drive very different.


See manthey GT3 or see M4 GTS or what ever 991 GT3 RS, take out aero effect and raise It 2 cm higher up In rideheight...Its crap then.

But In bed when you read all this In the magazine Its not as obvius right. But trust me, If you for once visit a track and test It you would know. Test what ever car you like, take a race car and put It 2 cm higher up In rideheight and take off aero effect, now If you drive It now even a magazine rider like you will feel Its different vs full Max aero and low rideheight.