PSA: VF Engineering Hex Tune Spun Crank Hub

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I wasn't before January 20, 2017...but now.....

Explains a lot.

[ctgeorge]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

That is why the two
points that we take issue with are the assumption that the shape
of our torque curve is to blame, as well as the insinuation that the
OP's engine may have been running lean due to our software.

Just stating the facts I've obtained from Various BMW Technicians, Independent Mechanics, and other tuners/coders over the past few months.

1) My plugs showed signs of running lean.

2) SCH occurred within 700 miles after applying the VF Hex flash.

3) Compared to a more linear delivery, Your pronounced torque delivery in the low RPM range is by no means helping the crank bolt from staying in place. Technicians and Mechanics agree this is most likely the contributing factor to the SCH.

Let's be honest here. The F80 owners on this board make up what? Maybe 3% of the total worldwide owners and that's being generous. So you can't come close to basing the total reported SCH issues from data on this board. As for this being "the first reported issue" with a VF tune. This may be true, just makes you wonder how many other failures have not been reported, not only with VF, but JB4, BM3 etc?

Bottom line. You want to tune your car that's fine. Do your homework and just understand the possible consequences that come with it.

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by wreckedmyf80

Any 18’ having this issue ?

Yep, I've already heard about 4 (2 DCT 2 6MT)
1- HexTune
3- Stock

[rosenbergendo]

This is why unless you are prepared to pay, the flash tunes leave you highly vulnerable to all warranty claims. At least with JB4 or any piggyback (which is an inferior product) you have a fighting chance. I know of this same scenario where JB4 was removed and warranty covered new motor.

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

This is why unless you are prepared to pay, the flash tunes leave you highly vulnerable to all warranty claims. At least with JB4 or any piggyback (which is an inferior product) you have a fighting chance. I know of this same scenario where JB4 was removed and warranty covered new motor.

I think BMW has become wise to the whole piggy back thing and If a new engine were needed, I'd be surprised if they would not do a full FASTA dump.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by ctgeorge

Just stating the facts I've obtained from Various BMW Technicians, Independent Mechanics, and other tuners/coders over the past few months.

1) My plugs showed signs of running lean.

2) SCH occurred within 700 miles after applying the VF Hex flash.

3) Compared to a more linear delivery, Your pronounced torque delivery in the low RPM range is by no means helping the crank bolt from staying in place. Technicians and Mechanics agree this is most likely the contributing factor to the SCH.

Let's be honest here. The F80 owners on this board make up what? Maybe 3% of the total worldwide owners and that's being generous. So you can't come close to basing the total reported SCH issues from data on this board. As for this being "the first reported issue" with a VF tune. This may be true, just makes you wonder how many other failures have not been reported, not only with VF, but JB4, BM3 etc?

Bottom line. You want to tune your car that's fine. Do your homework and just understand the possible consequences that come with it.

1. That could be an indicator of something with the tune, but for the fact that we have the exact tune and my plugs do not show the same signs...therefore, its not indicative of the tune.

2. SCH occurred on a track when the engine is experiencing a lot of prolonged stress. 7 miles, or 70,000 miles post tune, tracking a car is terrible for its longevity.

3. The stock tune is equally non linear. More power certainly doesn't help, but the tune is not unique in the manner in which it delivers power. It simply amplifies the properties of the existing tune.

Given the number of people on these forums compared to the number of F8x's sold, I think your 3% estimate is very low. Additionally, there is certainly a disproportionate number of people that own AND tune F80s on this forum. I would say that if you're the guy that tunes your car, its also very likely you're the same guy that is on here fairly often.

To your last point, if you do understand the consequences, and you did your homework, what are you hoping to achieve with this post?

I think you are not a man of integrity. You gave VF your word that such a post would not be created, and yet here we are. You didnt need to say that to them, yet you did. You are not a man of your word. That brings everything you say into question.

Lastly, what happened to you could have just as easily have happened to me. I do feel sorry for you. But the manner in which you handled this is completely classless, just as a "PSA."

[rosenbergendo]

Originally Posted by drgmt

I think BMW has become wise to the whole piggy back thing and If a new engine were needed, I'd be surprised if they would not do a full FASTA dump.

FASTA data isn't really altered with a Stage 1 JB or JB4 if I'm not mistaken.

[ptper]

Guess this is why lots of folks are focusing on the CS and GTS tunes (and burbles), thinking less power cuts down on the risk for a SCH. Not sure that has been definitively proven though as I've read there have been cases for folks who weren't tuned.

[4everkidd]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

FASTA data isn't really altered with a Stage 1 JB or JB4 if I'm not mistaken.

Does FASTA not record boost levels?

I'm curious if replacing the crank hub bolt yearly would help.

4 hours and ~$200 a year for a
Piece of mind is an easy decision.

Being a 2015 I'm considering ordering a new bolt, washer and red loctite and doing it myself. Can't be that difficult.

Edit: yes I know the replacement yearly has come up, and the potential to slip without backing out. But I have seen no evidence of breakout torque on a slipped or slipping SCH. I would put together a DIY if I go ahead with this

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

indeed

FASTA data isn't really altered with a Stage 1 JB or JB4 if I'm not mistaken.

You're definitely mistaken, they can say whatever they want but these cars track everything even when you think a piggy bsck tricking the car into seeing less.
Funny, old friend back in 2016 took car after removing jb4 to new dealer. Car was flagged automatically no one knows how, SA came back and said they found the fasta data being manipulated.

Originally Posted by ptper

Guess this is why lots of folks are focusing on the CS and GTS tunes (and burbles), thinking less power cuts down on the risk for a SCH. Not sure that has been definitively proven though as I've read there have been cases for folks who weren't tuned.

Not a bad idea and I wonder what would BMW do if a car with CS / GTS or CSL mapping went in for warranty work

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

FASTA data isn't really altered with a Stage 1 JB or JB4 if I'm not mistaken.

You are mistaken.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

FASTA data isn't really altered with a Stage 1 JB or JB4 if I'm not mistaken.

I believe what you meant to say is:

1. A piggyback unit does not alter (write) anything directly onto the DME EEPROM.

2. FASTA data won't see increased boost pressure/target, as this is one of the variables that a piggyback unit would intercept from the DME.

However, FASTA data records everything else, including increased acceleration in correlation to factory boost characteristics. So in technical terms, if a BMW Engineer wanted to analyze the FASTA data on a piggyback tuned vehicle, they will see an anomaly in comparison to the factory baseline.

Thus, the belief that a piggyback unit is harder to detect (not impossible) than a full flash tune is true. However, it doesn't mean that a piggyback can't be detected at all. It just requires more work

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by FSociety

Not a bad idea and I wonder what would BMW do if a car with CS / GTS or CSL mapping went in for warranty work

They'll flag it. They flag cars with coding now even.

ZCP/CS/GTS/CSL maps typically require FSC code to properly activate if you flash the whole shabang from ESYS.

Originally Posted by nars3000

I believe what you meant to say is:

1. A piggyback unit does not alter (write) anything directly onto the DME EEPROM.

2. FASTA data won't see increased boost pressure/target, as this is one of the variables that a piggyback unit would intercept from the DME.

However, FASTA data records everything else, including increased acceleration in correlation to factory boost characteristics. So in technical terms, if a BMW Engineer wanted to analyze the FASTA data on a piggyback tuned vehicle, they will see an anomaly in comparison to the factory baseline.

Thus, the belief that a piggyback unit is harder to detect (not impossible) than a full flash tune is true. However, it doesn't mean that a piggyback can't be detected at all. It just requires more work

1) true.

2) If it's anything like the JB4 doing MAF interceptions, the DME will see this.

The DME has neural network models for boost control/ignition timing among other things.. thinking BMW doesn't have forms of tuner protection against JB4 / Flash tunes is just being ignorant.

You pay to play.

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by ctgeorge

Just stating the facts I've obtained from Various BMW Technicians, Independent Mechanics, and other tuners/coders over the past few months.

We fully understand that the end result is disheartening, and
trust that your seeking of a second opinion was purely for the
purpose of further educating yourself as to how this happened,
but please don't lose track of why you likely chose HEX Tuning
in the first place.

I do believe this may be where the issue stems from, and that's
in accepting 3rd party opinions or information as fact, instead
of remaining objective. Especially from mechanics & technicians
who may bot not adequately equipped with relevant data, or 3rd
party tuners & "coders" who may be lesser qualified and/or have
less than genuine intentions.

Note: I can see some people taking offense to that last statement,
but please understand where we are coming from when faced with
baseless and unfounded information which was provided to the OP.

Originally Posted by ctgeorge

1) My plugs showed signs of running lean.

1) Our target lambda is .83 tapering to .81 by redline which is
easily verifiable by anyone running our software.

This is without a doubt an irresponsible diagnosis for a trained
mechanic to make in regards to these direct injection motors
simply by looking at the spark plug.

Originally Posted by ctgeorge

2) SCH occurred within 700 miles after applying the VF Hex flash.

3) Compared to a more linear delivery, Your pronounced torque delivery in the low RPM range is by no means helping the crank bolt from staying in place. Technicians and Mechanics agree this is most likely the contributing factor to the SCH.

Knowing that there is the rare (but still very real) risk of a spunk
crank hub even on completely stock vehicles, this could be said
for ANY brand of software which provides any amount of increase
in torque.

Our issue here is that you're insinuating, based almost solely on
conjecture, that our software was the direct cause of the failure.
The shape of the torque curve is primarily dictated by the physics
of achieving a target load (or boost level) based on the size and
efficiency of the turbos themselves.


It's was likely very easy for the tuners or coders you have been
speaking with to make those claims about our product, but at the
risk of sounding crass, was it equally simple for them to provide
their own dyno plots when you asked them to prove their claims?

We've posted and shared dozens of dyno plots for our various
power levels, on our own Mustang & DynoJet dynamometers,
as we'll as independently tested results for our software from all
around the world: all of which would bevery easy to compare and
contrast to any others.

Originally Posted by ctgeorge

Bottom line. You want to tune your car that's fine. Do your homework and just understand the possible consequences that come with it.

Well said!

That is the same sentiment we have been sharing for nearly 20
years, and it's actually stated multiple times on our website and
on all of our Invoices.