12-16-2013, 07:27 PM | #23 |
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The e90 was 22,000 Nm/deg without folding rear seats. The F30 is allegedly 30% higher, which gets you to 28,000 Nm/deg. The point of my post is that if you take an F30, do everything you can save weight, and make it so different that you need to call that unibody the F80, did you weaken it over the F30?
Does the F80 change any major parts of the unibody from steel to aluminum, like the front clip?
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12-16-2013, 07:53 PM | #24 | |
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Under 100k nothing could touch the boxster/cayman and you'd have to move to a GT car or something of the likes to match it. In addition, the cayman/boxster were much more accessible than a 997 911. That is all changed now since the 991. Honestly, when they say the 911 is the best suspension and damped car in the world, that's not any exaggeration. It's truly just astounding...i have yet to drive a car so dialed in and easy to push. The 991 handles more like a cayman/boxster now so I don't think saying they're better platforms is valid anymore. |
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12-16-2013, 09:47 PM | #25 | |
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Very interested to see what Porsche does with the upcoming 981 GTS and/or the R.
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12-16-2013, 10:11 PM | #26 | |
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The 991 GT3 is being compared to cars punching above it's weight...458,MP4-12C. With rear wheel steer the car has nullified it's ass-engined handicap, but retained it's traction and braking advantage. I have a hard time believing the new M3/4 will challenge a 991S even though the Porsche is getting softer. They start life with such different genetics. |
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12-17-2013, 01:58 AM | #27 |
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They will very likely deliver a drivers race at the strip and very close best reported magazine times. However, the M4's lap times will probably typically fall short of the 991S. It will best the base 991 (3.4l) though.
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12-17-2013, 03:20 AM | #28 | |
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None of the lightweight components weaken the chassis, instead the CFRP strut brace increase stiffness as well as do the solidly mounted rear subframe. |
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12-17-2013, 07:50 AM | #29 |
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I'm just saying there is no alchemy. The lightest wheels are not the strongest wheels. In the default case a 20 pound forged wheel has a higher static load rating than a 16 pound forged wheel.
Is there a difference between the F30 unibody and the F80 unibody other than the roof? Or are those the same exact unibody, and the F80 weighs exactly 11 pounds less for the roof only? Did they use aluminum in the front clip? Just so I'm being abundantly clear, I mean this diagram in its entirety (colored and silver parts) and nothing else:
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12-17-2013, 09:34 AM | #30 |
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Read the official threads, it lists the weight savings. If it's not listed there, it isn't on the car (would you expect BMW to not "brag" about all the weight savings they have made, but just choose a few of those?). And a aluminium structure can be just as strong, just more expensive to manufacture.
Again, do you believe that BMW deliberately have chosen to compromise the integrity of the chassis on their Halo car? |
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12-17-2013, 09:55 AM | #31 |
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Compromised is a strong word. Even if it was only as strong as the E90 that would be more than adequate. The emphasis on efficiency, which is being achieved through lighter weight. This isn't about making the strongest M3 in the world. If they did, it would be 3800 pounds.
They built a fast attack boat, not a tank.
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12-17-2013, 11:26 AM | #32 | |||||
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"To reduce the quality, value, or degree of something" If BMW has weakened the chassis of the F8x over the F3x, then that would mean that they had compromised the structural stiffness of the chassis, right? Some quotes/info taken from the official threads, since it seems you haven't taken the time to read them Quote:
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Not sure I understand where your concern for the torsional rigidity of the F8x comes from |
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12-17-2013, 12:14 PM | #33 | |
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12-17-2013, 01:53 PM | #34 | |
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Also as far as BMWs quotes go the superlatives are always left without a direct comparison as to what (to the base model, to the prior generation M car, to a competitor). I think it is abundantly clear the M4 will have greater torsional rigidity than the 435, but one is still making some assumptions about BMWs carefully chosen words.
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12-17-2013, 03:07 PM | #35 |
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I could see someone hitting a pothole on the Cross Bronx Expressway and having a $19,000 repair to replace some aluminum bit on the front 1/4.
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12-17-2013, 04:14 PM | #36 | |
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Crashworthiness has neven been mentioned by anyone, it's the rigidity of the chassis as pointed out in my previous post and which also was the concern of the OP (i.e have BMW decreased torsional rigidity on the F8x vs the F3x in their quest for less weight). And since no one of us has access to BMW internal documents, all of the subcategories you mention will not be possible for us to go in detail on... The topic here is whether there has been any weakening of the F8x chassis over the F3x chassis due to use of lightweight materials. My point being that it instead seems the base chassis ("body in white") is the same, but that the F8x has some added braces and rigid mounting of subframes that increase rigidity over the F3x. Excuse me if I haven't been clear about that, but since no one has mentioned crashworthiness before I thought it wasn't necessary to make a point of explaining explicitly that we weren't debating crash worthiness... Also the topic of the thread was kind of hinting at what the discussion was about... |
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12-17-2013, 04:16 PM | #37 |
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12-17-2013, 10:26 PM | #38 |
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gee-m-w said "if it was only as strong as the E90" whereas you reply when on and on about stiffness. Again, yes, it's pretty clear that with the add on bracing parts that Ms are always stiffer than the base car. I only brought up strength and crashworthiness as general strength related concepts since gee-m-w brought up strength.
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12-17-2013, 10:30 PM | #39 |
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You seem to imply that BMW doesn't even test their cars... Although M cars surely place higher loads on various components things are still tested. Most cars including BMWs will also enjoy nice progressive failures with larger and larger loads (larger and larger potholes). First a tire or wheel will go, then a suspension member will go, then a mounting point might yield, finally a major subframe or frame component will actually fail. No guarantees that this is true for every BMW, every M or every car, but generally this is the way cars are designed to deal with large wheel impact loads such as potholes.
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12-18-2013, 12:28 AM | #40 |
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I don't know of any BMW model that hasn't improved in rigidity from generation to generation so I am sure it has. Maybe not by a big enough margin to brag about though.
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12-18-2013, 09:58 AM | #41 | |
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http://www.autozine.org/Archive/BMW/new/3er_F30.html http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612668 Last edited by Boss330; 12-18-2013 at 02:06 PM.. |
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