02-27-2015, 08:16 AM | #45 | |
Major General
6501
Rep 6,650
Posts |
Quote:
The problem lies not only within the fact that it's Lithium Ion, but the electronic functions contained within the battery. You casually brushed that aside, but you really shouldn't. You asked for a statement from BMW telling you otherwise, and I gave it to you. Here it is: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...5&d=1406475520 Read chapter 6 of the complete vehicle technical guide linked above. Based on what I am reading, it seems as if the car's alternator and charging circuits are designed for the Li battery. I won't re type the whole thing but the Li battery can take charge faster, among other things. I think there would be issues with a lead acid battery. The charge rates would probably destroy the lead acid battery and while that might not be the end of the world, the voltage rates could start to get wonky. Which can be a problem. But more crucially is the circuitry in the battery, which the car would likely not do well without. A standard battery wouldn't have this circuitry, and the document states that the circuits in the battery are responsible for FIFTEEN different functions related to the car's electrical system, such as diagnostics, wake up, voltage monitoring, state of charge, etc. Most crucially are the communications with the LIN Data bus, the diagnostics functions, and the Wake up functions. I think that without these circuits in place, the car's network is going to throw a shit fit at too many missing pieces of data when you go to start it, you would get a bunch of errors, and the car probably wouldn't start. I'm an engineer, but not an electrical one, so I couldn't tell you exactly how all of this works. But I have been around and messing around with cars with central data busses long enough to know that some of these functions are trivial and some are critical. And when the critical ones like those described above get confused, all sorts of issues crop up. Now, since the F30 doesn't use this type of battery, you MIGHT be able to use a standard lead acid battery suitable for an F30 by using the Intelligent Battery Sensor that is installed along with the F30 battery. This is a stand alone microprocessor that is bolted onto the negative terminal and assumes the function of the circuits designed into the F80's Lithium Ion battery. IF, and I'm making an assumption here, the signals sent by the processor were similar to those sent by the circuits integrated into the F80's battery, you might fool the computer into thinking all was well. However, in reading the differences in voltages provided by the Lithium Ion battery, and in reading all the functions of the IBS (found here http://www.bimmerscan.com/bmw-intell...ry-sensor-ibs/), and how often those values are updated and read, I think you'd run into issues with the Lead Acid battery quickly. Because the Lithium Ion battery is designed to take charge more quickly than the Lead Acid battery, the alternator is programmed to feed the battery charge accordingly. If you start to juice the Lead Acid battery at a rate it is not capable of accepting, I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen, but I would think you would overhead the lead acid battery. Someone more familiar with electronics and batteries especially can weigh in and tell me what would happen if you exceeded the charging rate of a battery. Out of curiosity, the listed number of charging cycles for each is 350 for the lead acid vs. 5000 for the Li battery It also states that the service life is expected to be twice as long as a lead acid battery. Last edited by Needsdecaf; 02-27-2015 at 08:26 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 08:29 AM | #46 | |
Second Lieutenant
73
Rep 240
Posts |
Quote:
- Fluke meter set to amps (used correctly) - Start the car, measure the amps in some unit of time. - Best way to do it, good data recording meter - like fluke 289, let it data gather for some time, review the data for some time period and get the charge rate. Then you'll know if the charing circuits are in the battery or part of the electrical system as a whole. I got money on its's part of the battery. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 08:31 AM | #47 | ||
Major General
6501
Rep 6,650
Posts |
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 11:06 AM | #49 |
Second Lieutenant
90
Rep 254
Posts |
The battery is expensive, no question. It might be good to know for making a decision up front but I don't think it would have changed any minds. The F8x is an envelope car. You're going to sacrifice cost for performance.
veyron tires are ~$40k a set. the wheels are ~$70k a set have to be changed every other tire set. I wonder how much CCB maintenance will be. we're in a different market, that's all.
__________________
- End of Line
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 12:46 PM | #50 |
Second Lieutenant
73
Rep 240
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 01:22 PM | #51 | |
Colonel
1791
Rep 2,995
Posts |
Quote:
To your point, both the F30 battery with the IBS and the F80 have an extensive on battery or in-battery sensor. But it's ALL about battery sensing - none of it is about the circuitry in the battery is integral to vehicle operation, just about assessment of whether the battery is safe to use. Now, thanks to you link (lol), I'm 75% confident in my initial assessment that a lead acid/AGM battery would work in an f8x vehicle and even more strongly feel that it would have been a gross dis-service if that technical bulletin specifically stated that AGM/Lead-Acid IS appropriate for ALL vehicles and yet they really meant they would be excluded from the f8x.
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 01:24 PM | #52 | |
Lieutenant General
18117
Rep 11,746
Posts
Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach
|
Quote:
If this battery does that too I'm all for it. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 01:39 PM | #53 | |
Major General
6501
Rep 6,650
Posts |
Quote:
As far as the "assessment that the battery is safe to use", it's a little more complicated than that. BMW's alternator on demand system has a large range of variables as to how much voltage it puts out, and at what rate, and when. Have you heard of the issues with older style batteries being replaced and the system not being coded that there is a new battery, and the new battery being ruined because it was overcharged ? The alternator and charging system takes into account the overall "health" of the battery and adjusts the amount and rate of charge. If it doesn't know the battery has been replaced, it doesn't adjust this charging rate and kills the battery, as new batteries and used accept current differently. Now imagine the system thinks there is a different type of battery, with a different overall voltage and a physical difference as to the rate it can accept charge, etc. Do you think that it will end well? I don't. Suggest you read up more on the BMW charging system, and battery technology in general. Tell you what, go buy a battery out of an F30 and throw it in and see what happens. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 02:00 PM | #54 | |
Colonel
1791
Rep 2,995
Posts |
Quote:
I mean, I guess that could be ambiguous to some and you need me to further justify "my case" as I'm personally taking you to court of this matter ... All sarcasm aside, I'm trying to establish clear guidance for various owners who might have a stranding/drained battery situation. I'm not representing myself as an expert and you yourself re-shared the document i'm now relying upon where, though the specifications are quite different, BMW is saying that the Lead-Acid/AGM type 12-volt battery has a application range of every vehicle. I have no bone in this debate one way or another. If someone proves the opposite, I'm all ears. The reason you posted that document was because I made a comment about if "BMW says something else, I'll gladly stick with LI-Ion only". But the document indicates Lead-Acid/AGM would function fine (albeit without battery sensing electronics). So either: 1. Lead-acid/AGM is fine or 2. BMW has grossly mis-stated the reality and neither their owners manual nor technical documents make any sort of either direct or easily understood statement that AGM/Lead-Acid batteries SHOULD NOT be hooked up to an F80. Joe P.s. It's page 87 of the document. bottom of the table.
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 02:02 PM | #55 |
Colonel
1791
Rep 2,995
Posts |
P.s. Why would nominal voltage be a determiner? Batteries crank out varying voltages for vehicle starting everyday due to temp and charging status. AFAIK it's fairly normal for a vehicle to start off of 10-13 volt discharge and BMW itself says the LI-Ion battery will start the vehicle just fine as long as it's sensing at least 10 volts.
Genuine question as to my automotive knowledge, when it comes to batteries, it will be rated at one voltage but will discharge usually lower in various real world situations.
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 02:55 PM | #56 |
Second Lieutenant
112
Rep 210
Posts |
I'm in the same boat. I feel a little better knowing that if I'm far from a BMW dealership that I'd be able to walk into a Wal Mart, auto parts store, or call AAA to swap a battery if I'm stranded.
|
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 03:33 PM | #57 |
Second Lieutenant
73
Rep 240
Posts |
batteries in of themselves are not intelligent devices - that's pretty obvious. The most important thing is the charge rate as to charge it correctly. BMW can be doing this in a couple of different ways. First a micro controller - [mc] is used which has a parameter for battery type. Measurements are taken from the battery a battery sensor that is inline and fed into the mC. The mc will adjust the output voltage to meet the battery type. The sensor if it's in line or in the battery would be talking back to the mc most likely via CAN bus and provide it with various parameters - V, I, Temp and Time. You can't get anything more from a battery. The mc then can relay this info to other mc and make conditional decisions i.e. if V <= 11.2 don't start the engine etc or if batt_type = Li-Po time <= 120Min at 14v, 5A etc.
My intuition tells me, they use a constant charge rate for all cars less i series. An mc dedicated to measuring specific parameters on batteries (V, I, Temp, time). For all Li-ION, the charger is in the battery, but nothing else. This in turn makes for a easier system build as most of the BMW will use an AGM battery. Bat state will come from the specific battery sensor. When you think of it, for batteries regardless of type, you need to same info V, I, Temp and time (time as is in how long your charging). When my car shows up, I will check the battery, if i see a connection to other then Neg / Pos, I will tap a logic analyzer on it and see what data is going back and forth for those really interested. If state info is going back and forth then dropping in any battery probably isn't going to work as you'll need a sensor sending back that state info. If that state info not coming from the battery but further uplink as i described before, then dropping in an AGM battery will be fine. Last edited by huatian; 02-27-2015 at 04:02 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
02-27-2015, 09:13 PM | #58 |
Major
698
Rep 1,199
Posts
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tucson, AZ
|
Battery and charging system functionality is described in the complete vehicle information PDF. The advanced battery monitoring circuitry present in the M3 has the following functionality:
The integrated electronics, the so-called battery supervision circuits (BUE), are responsible for the: • Communication via LIN data bus with FEM/DME • Diagnostics • Wake-up function via FEM via LIN data bus • Current monitoring of the individual cells and battery • Closed-circuit current monitoring • Voltage monitoring of the individual cells and battery • Cell voltage adaptation with counter function via passive system (resistance) • Startability monitoring • Temperature monitoring with resulting temperature model • Internal resistance monitoring • State of charge monitoring • Battery condition monitoring • Battery capacity monitoring • Data memory for battery information • Activation of the battery isolating switch in the event of a fault. The battery circuitry wants the battery to be operating between 10 and 14.5 volts, and most of the functionality revolves around isolating the battery (a switch opens) if the battery is operated outside that voltage range (not a concern for a Pb Acid battery), protecting the battery against to much charging current or too much current draw, and preventing the battery from getting above 80 degrees C (battery fires start at much higher temperatures). Since a Pb battery won't have this circuitry in it (inside the battery only) Informed guess says the car would not start with a Pb battery because it is not connected to the bus with the circuitry.
__________________
Best Regards, Robert (BMWCCA #471893)
Loreley 2015 / //M3 6MT SO over full SO, Exec,Susp & Lighting, HK & Blk 19's - ED 15 May 2015, Redelivery 23 July 2015 My photography: WWW.PBASE.COM/VONMAYR My ED Adventure http://www.vonmayredadventure.blogspot.com |
Appreciate
3
|
03-03-2015, 06:58 PM | #59 |
European Editor
10526
Rep 22,992
Posts |
Intelligent Alternator Control (IGR)...
Some new info...
vonmayr JoeFromPA huatian Arcoril Needsdecaf huatian For all your techie types... I asked my buddy at BMW AG some more questions on the F8x charging system. Here is what he had to say. He also gave me a great pdf on the Intelligent Alternator Control (IGR in German!) used on all BMW's since 2007. What's most interesting is his last paragraph... Dackel Li-ion battery in F8x ///M’s... every BMW comes with this function(IGR) since 2007 build date. - When you brake your car increases the voltage of the generator, so it produces more energy. This higher energy output causes a counter force on the (FEAN) belt which result in slowing down the engine/car. It's like turning on a bicycle dynamo... - For this function you need an AGM battery (or Li-Ion), an IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor) and an IGR (Intelligent Generator Regulating -> a Generator with a bus system) --> As a result your car produces electric energy and not only frictional heat Official BMW explanation: Fuel consumption is reduced by way of energy recuperation in favorable vehicle operating modes (overrun phases) based on a request to increase the alternator voltage (target value). This energy recovered without the use of fuel is stored in a "receptive battery". The charge status of the battery must be within certain levels that permit charging. A fully charged battery (100 % charged) cannot accept energy and is therefore avoided as part of the intelligent alternator control strategy. 2) I bumped into the responsible person for the 12V-battery and asked him, if you can retrofit an AGM-battery. As I guessed: yes, you can but recuperation won't work properly. BTW: you cannot retrofit a Li-Ion battery because of the maximum charging level (AGM= 14,8V, Li-Ion=14,4V) Also... here is what some Li-ion race batteries are selling for in Germany. Makes BMW's prices seem cheap! http://www.isa-racing.com/index.php/...Batterien.html .
__________________
|
Appreciate
1
|
03-03-2015, 07:44 PM | #60 |
Major General
6501
Rep 6,650
Posts |
There you go! Thanks Dack. Joe, I guess you are right.
So if recuperation won't work properly, what is the end result? Uncharged battery? Overcharged battery? And to swap in an AGM, I guess you'd have to add the IBS? |
Appreciate
1
|
03-04-2015, 12:17 AM | #62 |
Major
698
Rep 1,199
Posts
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tucson, AZ
|
Right. And with the old AGM batteries, the battery monitoring circuit was in the battery leads and external to the battery. With the Li Ion batteries, it is internal to the battery and hence will cause more issues because the car is expecting to be able to "talk" to that monitoring circuitry at start up.
__________________
Best Regards, Robert (BMWCCA #471893)
Loreley 2015 / //M3 6MT SO over full SO, Exec,Susp & Lighting, HK & Blk 19's - ED 15 May 2015, Redelivery 23 July 2015 My photography: WWW.PBASE.COM/VONMAYR My ED Adventure http://www.vonmayredadventure.blogspot.com |
Appreciate
1
|
03-04-2015, 12:24 AM | #63 | |
Major
698
Rep 1,199
Posts
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Tucson, AZ
|
Quote:
__________________
Best Regards, Robert (BMWCCA #471893)
Loreley 2015 / //M3 6MT SO over full SO, Exec,Susp & Lighting, HK & Blk 19's - ED 15 May 2015, Redelivery 23 July 2015 My photography: WWW.PBASE.COM/VONMAYR My ED Adventure http://www.vonmayredadventure.blogspot.com |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-04-2015, 01:16 AM | #64 | |
Lieutenant General
1311
Rep 10,185
Posts |
Quote:
The Li-Ion chargers keep their maximum voltage below 14.4V. So fitting a Li-Ion to a "normal" car will result in its charger killing the battery. Fitting a Lead Acid battery in a F8X will result in a not fully charged battery. What Im not sure of is if the F8x has a coding option to allow Lead Acid batteries or not. Someone with a F8x on ISTA needs to check for us if that option appears under the battery section.
__________________
BMW if you are reading, I need a job, Please. |
|
Appreciate
1
|
03-04-2015, 03:02 AM | #65 |
European Editor
10526
Rep 22,992
Posts |
My friend said you can use an AGM battery(and code it) but its not going to work properly - which I took it to mean, it will not last long as it should.
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-16-2015, 11:58 PM | #66 |
Brigadier General
1622
Rep 3,402
Posts |
Maybe I have drank the Kool Aid and didn't know it but I actually think this is not a terrible battery for this car. Li-ion batteries are superior than lead acid or AGM batteries and should yes should last for 8-10 years assuming BMW got the charging system right. Here in AZ I go through lead acid batteries every 2-3 years, BMW charges about $400 here to change out the battery and do the programing. On my 06 330i I got so irritated last time that I bought an AGM battery put it in and skipped the programing. That was 2 years ago and it has been fine so I am thinking some of that programing stuff is BS. Point is over a 10 year period I would spend $1200 on batteries for a regular 3 series so perhaps combined with 30 lbs of weight savings this is not so bad.
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|