BMW M3 vs Alpina D3 diesel - fast saloon showdown by Autocar

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

agree on the level of competition, so much better now in these segments

on the car choices, personally I think the f8x is a superior car to the e9x or the c63. so to me, I would rather have one car I love instead of a car that I really like (e9x or c63) and a commuter car.

just sayin

The F8x is probably superior to the E9x and C63, but IMO the reason why it looses so many comparos is simply because this M has lost some of the specialness that made previous M3s so great, at least compared to their competition! Very capable, but not that special I think!

Let's be honest, a ZCP E9x with MPE, eventhough slower then the F8x, would have probably done just as good as the F8x against the C63 507, not because of numbers it achieves but because of the enjoyment behind the wheel which really is the single most important element to look for when buying a car like that!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

The F8x is probably superior to the E9x and C63, but IMO the reason why it looses so many comparos is simply because this M has lost some of the specialness that made previous M3s so great, at least compared to their competition! Very capable, but not that special I think!

Let's be honest, a ZCP E9x with MPE, eventhough slower then the F8x, would have probably done just as good as the F8x against the C63 507, not because of numbers it achieves but because of the enjoyment behind the wheel which really is the single most important element to look for when buying a car like that!

When it comes to subjective criteria, we can (have) argue all day. In all objective criteria, the F8x is ahead of the E9x though. It's just like the E46, IMO. Plenty of people still hang on to their E46. I don't blame them; it's a great car. It's hard to make the case that the E46 is a more performant car though.

I have a feeling I like my E9x for a lot the same reasons you do. I'm content to acknowledge that those are my own subjective reasons though. I don't fault Kenny (or Steve Sutcliffe) for having their own set of values. Objectively, the F8x is a step forward.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

When it comes to subjective criteria, we can (have) argue all day. In all objective criteria, the F8x is ahead of the E9x though. It's just like the E46, IMO. Plenty of people still hang on to their E46. I don't blame them; it's a great car. It's hard to make the case that the E46 is a more performant car though.

I have a feeling I like my E9x for a lot the same reasons you do. I'm content to acknowledge that those are my own subjective reasons though. I don't fault Kenny (or Steve Sutcliffe) for having their own set of values. Objectively, the F8x is a step forward.

This is so logical and well articulated. But even that's subjective. Careful for the E9x fanbois who try to vote you off the island

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

When it comes to subjective criteria, we can (have) argue all day. In all objective criteria, the F8x is ahead of the E9x though. It's just like the E46, IMO. Plenty of people still hang on to their E46. I don't blame them; it's a great car. It's hard to make the case that the E46 is a more performant car though.

I have a feeling I like my E9x for a lot the same reasons you do. I'm content to acknowledge that those are my own subjective reasons though. I don't fault Kenny (or Steve Sutcliffe) for having their own set of values. Objectively, the F8x is a step forward.

this sums it up

[Velociraptor]

Steve Sutcliffe obviously likes the D3 very much.

He did a written comparo of the D3 vs C63 AMG 507 Edition in Autocar magazine and the Alpina won. Better to drive, much cheaper, much more economical(16 mpg for AMG, 46 mpg for the D3) and almost as fast in traffic. I hear there's a year long waiting list on the D3 and it's obvious why...

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

When it comes to subjective criteria, we can (have) argue all day. In all objective criteria, the F8x is ahead of the E9x though. It's just like the E46, IMO. Plenty of people still hang on to their E46. I don't blame them; it's a great car. It's hard to make the case that the E46 is a more performant car though.

I have a feeling I like my E9x for a lot the same reasons you do. I'm content to acknowledge that those are my own subjective reasons though. I don't fault Kenny (or Steve Sutcliffe) for having their own set of values. Objectively, the F8x is a step forward.

I would'nt say it's ahead in "all" objective criterias, unless steering feel and throttle response are subjective, but yeah, in pretty much every performance measure the F8x beat the E9x! But "fun" is much more subjective then objective!

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I would'nt say it's ahead in "all" objective criterias, unless steering feel and throttle response are subjective, but yeah, in pretty much every performance measure the F8x beat the E9x! But "fun" is much more subjective then objective!

i think you should hold off on calling it less fun until you drive it.

I can think of a lot of cars that have been better / worse than my expectations going in to a test drive

:twocents:

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

i think you should hold off on calling it less fun until you drive it.

I can think of a lot of cars that have been better / worse than my expectations going in to a test drive

:twocents:

Never said the E9x is more fun, I only mean that the F8x is maybe not that much more fun then the E9x as what the numbers would suggest! That's why it could loose to the C63 507 which is pretty much an improved version of a car that the E9x use to beat!

[myzmak]

To echo a lot of what has been said, it is a.....funny review.

On the objective measures, the performance advantages he gives the D3 are hard to justify. (empty tank, launch control, etc). He really did handicap one car.

On the subjective measures, ok, fine, I will concede a car that is meant to be more luxury than sport (the D3) is.....well, more luxurious. (Its why one can't get offended if someone says a 458 or a 911 Turbo are better sports cars than an M3. They are. So what, though?)

He does spend way too much time talking about the sound (which he did in his C63 v M3 comparo) but, as others have noted, he seems to now fault the M3 for the things he praised in the C63 (loudness and rawness).

There is no doubt that Sutcliffe is not a big fan of the M3, an opinion he is free to have and state.

....but there is also no doubt that this is not a high point in his journalistic career. Its a poorly done comparo that seems intended to create controversy and help the D3 win by fixing the objective measures and then making his 'choice' based on subjective factors (the results of which, apparently, change depending on whether they help or hurt the M3).

...and it comes so closely on his last comparo (again, choosing the C63 on subjective measures, just weighed the other way) one wonders what the point of this was. Why did he feel he needed to put one hand on the scale to, again, say he doesn't like the M3?

....there was a great mock "Passat TDI v M3" review here a week or so ago and, frankly, after watching this one I wouldn't think it would be too far off what I would next expect from Sutcliffe in his line of "M3 vs...." reviews. Is his plan to keep finding other cars and saying "I like them better than the M3"? If so, why?

I'm not really terribly put out by this, he is just one little voice (Clarkson, Hammond and Harris speak much louder and reach many more ears) but.....I dunno. One does wonder why.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I would'nt say it's ahead in "all" objective criterias, unless steering feel and throttle response are subjective, but yeah, in pretty much every performance measure the F8x beat the E9x! But "fun" is much more subjective then objective!

My rule of thumb is this: if it can't be expressed using an SI base unit, it's subjective. I've never seen a steering feel measurement instrument

Subjective criteria are usually established by consensus. It's true that the consensus on the F8x steering has been: less feel some, but highly accurate. I don't consider that an objective criteria though.

To be honest, there's an argument to be made that, in terms of steering and chassis feel, we've been going backwards since the 60s.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

My rule of thumb is this: if it can't be expressed using an SI base unit, it's subjective. I've never seen a steering feel measurement instrument

Subjective criteria are usually established by consensus. It's true that the consensus on the F8x steering has been: less feel some, but highly accurate. I don't consider that an objective criteria though.

To be honest, there's an argument to be made that, in terms of steering and chassis feel, we've been going backwards since the 60s.

I see it more simply then that, does the hydraulic system in the E9x makes a better job at letting you know what the wheels are doing than the electric system in the F8x!? yes!

Nothing subjective there IMO, 2 different systems, one is better at transmiting the information, the other is better at saving energy!

[SouthernBoy]

Sounds like a bunch of you commenting already drive newer M cars. Unsure if you're all trying to defend your cars by calling the reviewer bias. There is still a lot of be desired from the M3.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I see it more simply then that, does the hydraulic system in the E9x makes a better job at letting you know what the wheels are doing than the electric system in the F8x!? yes!

Nothing subjective there IMO, 2 different systems, one is better at transmiting the information, the other is better at saving energy!

If you can't measure it, it's subjective. I'm not saying the F8x steering is better, I'm saying it's subjective.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

If you can't measure it, it's subjective. I'm not saying the F8x steering is better, I'm saying it's subjective.

Well, we both have different opinions on this!

[Karmic Man]

This review is more legit than any written review (feels faster than E92, handles so well..bla bla bla) I read from all the potential or existing owners on this web site.

Launch control or not it clearly shows the acceleration prowess of the D3 and stopped better.

I understand the angle that he is coming from...to him and me, if someone wants noise and hard suspension feel its unlikely they want it in a 4 door saloon family car.