What leather cleaner and conditioner to not fade Sakhir Orange interior ?

[swagon]

Originally Posted by trey100

Thx. So how do I keep that steering wheel looking new and dry/matte or is that just not possible? I feel like any conditioner or cleaner will gloss the leather.

1. Wash your hands before you drive.
2. Clean the steering wheel regularly with a leather cleaner and a MF towel. No conditioner!

Optional: buy driving gloves.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by Draper

The shine is created over time as the steering wheel absorbs the oils from your hands.

A gentle leather cleaner following by a conditioner should help. I've always been partial to Adam's since their cleaners are fairly mild, and their conditioner is much more matte than shiny. There are probably other good options as well.

Thanks. I'll pick them up.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by swagon

1. Wash your hands before you drive.
2. Clean the steering wheel regularly with a leather cleaner and a MF towel. No conditioner!

Optional: buy driving gloves.

Excellent. Thank you.

[Oliver Queen]

I have the sakhir orange interior and today used the chemical guys cleaner, then conditioner, and then the serum. Awesome natural non-shiny weird looking leather, looks clean, protected, and feels great!

[Fast4d]

the serum does not add gloss. just a natural finish

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

Cleaning with water may be advised for some, but definitely not all BMW leathers.

Merino is a fine, full grain leather with no top coat.

Nappa is a full-grain, semi-aniline leather with a light top coat.

Dakota and Nevada are both heavily corrected leathers with urethane top coats, and have more in common with SensaTec than the other leather types. They're still called leather since their base layer is a natural hide.

I've seen this posted around a bunch too and don't believe that Merino has no top coat: in these posts they use of the word "fine" as in "genuine fine-grain natural leather" but "Fine" is not a leather grade and usually used by marketers to describe top-grain leather as in "Fine leather goods".

So let's run through the types and everyone can decide for themselves:

Full-grain leather
Typically soft and thick, natural look, breathable, and develops a patina as it ages. I don't know about your cars, but my leather has non of those qualities. However maybe this is because of the top coat. Could just be the convertible but I doubt it.

Top-grain leather
Less breathable, feels colder, has better stain resistance, is more durable, and doesn't develop a patina. That sounds more like my BMW merino leather....



But, ok, on to the types of leather surface processing, maybe that's the difference:

Full/Pure aniline
Dye-only and you should be able to see variations in color and defects in the hide. It's less resistant to light, stains, and water. I have furniture, bags, gloves, and coats like this and they all have variation and a real hide look - not so with my BMW merino leather, I don't see any color variations anywhere.

Pure Aniline is without a doubt one of the softest leathers to the touch, it is produced from the finest selection of raw hides. Dyeing takes place in large wooden drums where the hides are bathed until the desired color is achieved. The natural surface of these hides remains unaltered, and their structure is easily recognized.

Pure aniline leather presents some disadvantages when compared to other finished leathers, its light resistance is very poor, it has excessive elasticity and it is susceptible to stains and marks.

Numerous pure aniline hides undergo a waterproof treatment that does not improve in any way its resistance to light and elasticity. With these treatments stains can be avoided, but the leather must be cleaned immediately after any spill.

Semi-aniline
Has more processing on the top to even out the color, is more durable, and resists stains. That sounds more like my BMW merino leather, it's uniform in color and durable.

This leather is produced from the finest raw hides. It is fully aniline dyed in drums. Then the leather is slightly covered with organic pigment which makes the dyeing more uniform and increases its resistance to wear, resistance to light and resistance to stain.

A major challenge in the production of semi aniline leathers is to produce a highly resistant product maintaining as much as possible the suppleness and feel of pure aniline.

Hmmm ... this sounds much more like my BMW merino leather.

Corrected Grain

This leather is produced from a lower selection of hides that are aniline dyed and machine buffed to remove the defects and imperfections from the surface layer. After being heavily coated with pigments a replacement grain must be embossed to recreate their natural appearance and look.

This product is highly resistant to wear, highly resistant to light and highly resistant to stain. It can be cleaned from stains quite easily, although it is always recommended to clean any spill or stain as soon as they occur.

Net-net: I can believe that Merino is full-grain aniline dyed leather, but comparing it to my furniture, bags, gloves, and coats, I'd bet it's semi-analine, i.e., has a top coat to even out the color, provide UV resistance, increase durability, and prevent stains.



At least I'm sure my convertible does. And since I'm cheap I'll stick to distilled water ... especially since it's easily cleaned sunscreen and grape juice off the seats ... good thing that coating prevented it from staining!

[GrussGott]

Well, I decided to do a bit of research as I used to be a leather hound years ago. First I went to a chair and couch (not a matched set) that I know are Pure aniline full grain - you can see the natural grain and pigment color variation if you look close on a nice monitor:





Looking at some of the areas of heavy use / wear:





Here's a aniline description that looks and feels EXACTLY like the leather you see above:

Aniline leather is a type of leather that is dyed with Aniline dye and does not contain a top-coat on the finished leather. This results in a leather than retains the hide's natural surface but does not protect the leather from damage. Aniline leather is very soft to the touch and appears luxurious. Over time the wrinkles and grain become more apparent as the leather is sat upon and used. We recommend this type of product for settings at a home, but not a commercial setting due to the development of patina's with excessive use. Excessive use (more than 50 uses per day) will result in patina's that leave the leather looking antique, although in some cases this may be desired.

Also, and not to be gross, but this furniture leather is very breathable - you can sit on it and not get sweaty or hot at all. The BMW leather, for my ass, is not as breathable

Ok, next, here's some furniture I know to be top-grain semi-aniline, including some that's massively sundamaged (5 years in the sunlight and still going):

This is about 10 years of wear, everyday use, photo is directly on the butt/leg seat edge of the chair; amazingly no wear, no patina, no wrinkles - this fucker is durable:



Same chair, chairback, no color variation or patina anywhere on this chair, super durable, but not as breathable as my pure aniline stuff



The poor partner to that chair is massively sun-damage but still useful - it feels like sandpaper, but no color loss/fading

Semi-aniline leathers or aniline plus pigments (AP) are dyed in vats with aniline dyes that penetrate throughout the hide so that the color goes all the way through the hide. However, the processing of semi-aniline leathers is taken a few steps further. After the leather is aniline dyed, a pigment color is applied to the top of the hide to guarantee a consistent color on the top surface of the hide. Finally, a clear protective coating is applied to make the leather stain repellant and sun resistant. The sheen of this protective coating can be varied to give a matte finish or a high gloss finish.

Sounds like Merino to me! Let's look ...

Ok, on to the Bimmmer's Merino Leather:

Should be zero use / wear here - you can see the grain but zero color variation, much shinier finish than the aniline furniture, very similar to my semi-aniline above though:



Now let's look at a wear area - no patina (yet), still zero color variation, pretty durable, but you do start to see some of full-grain wrinkles:



Let's the check the dye - you can see it's dyed all the way through:



But what about stains and dirt that have been there for 12 months? easy for me! Let's find some on the black, also looks like zero color variation with this leather too:



Ok, a little distilled water on a black microfiber, very light brushing - stains are almost totally gone after 2 seconds so very stain resistant:



Verdict:
BMW Merino leather is full-grain, semi-aniline (AKA, aniline with pigment), i.e., it's coated at a minimum with dye and UV protection

[Draper]

Good info, but I think it's a bit too general and not specific to BMW.

One exception where Merino *may* have something extra is on the F83 which BMW states includes 'SunReflective Technology'. Whether that is some sort of extra coating or special dye we don't know, but that doesn't change the fact that BMW still describes Merino as being porous, even in the convertible.

BMW Individual ordering guide
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle..._catalogue.pdf

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

Good info, but I think it's a bit too general and not specific to BMW.

Unless BMW doesn't use leather, it's specific to BMW because it's specific to leather. There's no color variation, that alone tells you top coat. Also, I bet most people's dash leather is pretty rock solid in terms of fading (by which I mean every single car with Merino leather) ... again, that alone tells you top coat.

I think this is a case of do-you-believe-your-eyes-or-do-you-believe-BMW-marketers?

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Unless BMW doesn't use leather, it's specific to BMW because it's specific to leather. There's no color variation, that alone tells you top coat. Also, I bet most people's dash leather is pretty rock solid in terms of fading (by which I mean every single car with Merino leather) ... again, that alone tells you top coat.

I think this is a case of do-you-believe-your-eyes-or-do-you-believe-BMW-marketers?

This thread started as a question about seats, and that is what my posts were directed towards. The steering wheel and dash are likely different, and I believe they are Nappa - not Merino.

I'm glad you found something that cleans your F83 to your satisfaction, and it's likely you are benefiting from the reflective treatment. However, your original posts used terms like 'auto leather' and 'similar to paint' which are too broad/inaccurate when talking about Merino.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

This thread started as a question about seats, and that is what my posts were directed towards. The steering wheel and dash are likely different, and I believe they are Nappa - not Merino.

Maybe. My guess is all the M4 leather is all the same: full-grain, semi-aniline (coated) no matter the convertible or not. The reason being that it's likely cheaper to use the same material and processing.

Plus it's not like the seats don't need durability, uniform color, stain & UV resistance, etc and I see zero difference in my dash versus my doors. It may be possible that the black non-seat leather is a different grain (top vs full) than the seat/door leather.

Still I doubt BMW is going to go through different sourcing and processing (but all the same color). My guess is the convertible marketing is just like the ZCP bedplate marketing (they said the ZCP has a new bedplate! but all engines do so ...)

In short, the seats are uniform in color, UV resistant, and durable, therefore they're definitely coated be they convertible or no.

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Maybe. My guess is all the M4 leather is all the same: full-grain, semi-aniline (coated) no matter the convertible or not. The reason being that it's likely cheaper to use the same material and processing.

Plus it's not like the seats don't need durability, uniform color, stain & UV resistance, etc and I see zero difference in my dash versus my doors. It may be possible that the black non-seat leather is a different grain (top vs full) than the seat/door leather.

Still I doubt BMW is going to go through different sourcing and processing (but all the same color). My guess is the convertible marketing is just like the ZCP bedplate marketing (they said the ZCP has a new bedplate! but all engines do so ...)

In short, the seats are uniform in color, UV resistant, and durable, therefore they're definitely coated be they convertible or no.

Stating something over does not make it any more (or less) true.

It's clear we share different feelings towards this, but there's enough info in this thread for others to make their own determinations.

[Oliver Queen]

Originally Posted by Fast4d

the serum does not add gloss. just a natural finish

Yes that's what I meant, it looks completely natural and smells awesome, very easy to use as well

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

Stating something over does not make it any more (or less) true.

It's clear we share different feelings towards this, but there's enough info in this thread for others to make their own determinations.

Good point - let's review the original question:

Originally Posted by 1M4

I heard some of the cleaners/conditioners including Bmw brand make the Sakhir Orange leather fade out.Im not sure if it's that it removes some color or something else from the leather .Or is it poor quality ? Anyone heard of this or recommend something safe for this color of interior ?

Based on observable facts (i.e., inspection of the materials and comparables):

1. M4 leather is dyed all the way through - aniline - and that's a good thing
2. M4 leather is uniform in color, this means the surface is pigment coated, i.e., post-aniline processing or semi-aniline
3. M4 leather is UV protected, this also means the surface is coated
4. M4 leather is durable, i.e., a finger nail does not mar the color, this also means the surface is coated

Conclusion: Cleaners/conditioners that fade the color are likely doing so by leaving behind an opaque residue (i.e., blocking reflected light) since the leather is dyed all the way through. Therefore your biggest worry in cleaning is going to be:

(1.) Rubbing grit into the leather and scratching it (just like your paint finish), and
(2.) Leaving behind a residue that fades out the color.

Guess what a great dirt/dust solvent is that doesn't leave behind a residue? Distilled water!

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Based on observable facts (i.e., inspection of the materials and comparables):

1. M4 leather is dyed all the way through - aniline - and that's a good thing
2. M4 leather is uniform in color, this means the surface is pigment coated, i.e., post-aniline processing or semi-aniline
3. M4 leather is UV protected, this also means the surface is coated
4. M4 leather is durable, i.e., a finger nail does not mar the color, this also means the surface is coated

Conclusion: Cleaners/conditioners that fade the color are likely doing so by leaving behind an opaque residue (i.e., blocking reflected light) since the leather is dyed all the way through. Therefore your biggest worry in cleaning is going to be:

(1.) Rubbing grit into the leather and scratching it (just like your paint finish), and
(2.) Leaving behind a residue that fades out the color.

Guess what a great dirt/dust solvent is that doesn't leave behind a residue? Distilled water!

Let's clarify those observable facts...

1. Correct, these are all drum dyed for consistent color throughout.
2. BMW explicitly states Merino consists of only 'absolutely flawless hides' that are untreated (no pigment coat). Unless you have hard, non-anecdotal, evidence to support the claim that Merino leather is truly different than what BMW says it is, then we have to accept what BMW says as fact.
3. Your F83 leather is UV protected, as confirmed by BMW. We have no evidence to determine whether or not this applies to F8x models that include a real roof. The F83 has entirely different front seats, so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to imagine it would also include altered leather.
4. Again, while your F83 exhibits this, it does not necessarily apply to all other F8x models, and is not hard evidence of a true top coat. BMW has stated Merino leather remains porous, which indicates a lack of a top coat.

If you want to see what an actual leather top coat is, go sit in a 340i or an X5 with Dakota. You will notice a night and day difference.

Conclusion: Water is for keeping people and plants alive, not for cleaning fancy leather upholstery.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

BMW explicitly states Merino consists of only 'absolutely flawless hides' that are untreated (no pigment coat).

Where does it say that? From what you've posted BMW doesn't say their Merino leather DOESN'T have a surface coat, just that the leather doesn't "require" it, which is true of all leather:

(1.) The marketing content you posted says "premium hides" "do not require any surface treatment", but it doesn't say "Merino leather has no surface coating". Those are different statements. Also, I'd say the word "treatment" is more a reference to Full or Top grain versus corrected grain treatment, but who knows with marketing speak? In short, they're not using leather industry wording.

(2.) In another example of avoiding leather industry wording BMW marketing says, "fine-grain Merino leather in Amaro Brown impresses with its velvety look and supple feel", again, "fine-grain" isn't a leather grade.

(3.) Of merino convertible leather BMW says, "The velvety, natural BMW Individual Merino leather with SunReflective Technology..."

All of these statements sound like marketing wording run through legal: non-specific, non-industry, plausibly deniable.

Do you have something more declarative from BMW about Merino leather's coating or lack thereof? Or at least a description of "sun reflective technology" or something that says seat leather is NOT Sun UV protected?

If you don't have anything more specific, you could try emailing BMWNA to see if they'll specifically say Merino leather does not have a surface coating ...

[GrussGott]

BTW, I did read in my m3/m4 catalog that:

"BMW Individual leather-covered instrument panel (XT1): upper section in
Black Walknappa leather and lower in fine-grain Merino leather in upholstery color"

[///M///]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Verdict:
BMW Merino leather is full-grain, semi-aniline (AKA, aniline with pigment), i.e., it's coated at a minimum with dye and UV protection

So to confirm, based off this you would still stick to distilled water and microfiber. Nothing else?

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Where does it say that? From what you've posted BMW doesn't say their Merino leather DOESN'T have a surface coat, just that the leather doesn't "require" it, which is true of all leather:

What are you talking about? If something isn't required, you're not going to do it.

Doctor: Good news! You're cancer free and don't require any treatment.
Patient: Ok great! Let's do it anyways.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(1.) The marketing content you posted says "premium hides" "do not require any surface treatment", but it doesn't say "Merino leather has no surface coating". Those are different statements. Also, I'd say the word "treatment" is more a reference to Full or Top grain versus corrected grain treatment, but who knows with marketing speak? In short, they're not using leather industry wording.

It's pretty clear they're referring to surface color correction in the first part of that statement. In the next sentence there is a mention of the leather remaining porous, which indicates no top coat. Even if they were using a porous, breathable top coat you still wouldn't want to clean that with water.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(2.) In another example of avoiding leather industry wording BMW marketing says, "fine-grain Merino leather in Amaro Brown impresses with its velvety look and supple feel", again, "fine-grain" isn't a leather grade.

So you're discarding the validity of these statements because of they're using descriptive language instead of industry language? In other areas BMW uses the phrase 'barrel pigmented' instead of 'drum dyed' - does that make it any less accurate?

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(3.) Of merino convertible leather BMW says, "The velvety, natural BMW Individual Merino leather with SunReflective Technology..."

No idea what SunReflective Tech is. Maybe a light-stabilized dye? I suppose it could be an extra top coat for convertibles. Our information is limited here.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

All of these statements sound like marketing wording run through legal: non-specific, non-industry, plausibly deniable.

I agree it's marketing, but marketing that has been audited by legal for accuracy. You can't claim to be using 'flawless' hides and having 'porous' leather if you are correcting your hides with paints and top coats.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Do you have something more declarative from BMW about Merino leather's coating or lack thereof? Or at least a description of "sun reflective technology" or something that says seat leather is NOT Sun UV protected?

If you don't have anything more specific, you could try emailing BMWNA to see if they'll specifically say Merino leather does not have a surface coating ...

I would suggest the onus is on you to prove the descriptions provided by BMW are inaccurate. BMW's interior care kit is not water, and includes its own UV protectant. Nowhere do they (or anyone else) recommend using water for cleaning fine interior leathers.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

BTW, I did read in my m3/m4 catalog that:

"BMW Individual leather-covered instrument panel (XT1): upper section in
Black Walknappa leather and lower in fine-grain Merino leather in upholstery color"

Good find! I had a feeling that was the case, as historically BMW has used Nappa for their dashboards.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

What are you talking about? If something isn't required, you're not going to do it.

I guess you don't do much product work, but that's not true.

Here, I'll show you:
"Our hides are so blemish free they require no surface treatment ... however for color uniformity and durability we spray on a light polymer coating"

See what happened there?

BMW left off that last part to make it sound better because they know misleading content will lead to internet myths .... myths they can use to sell you expensive leather care products (which is the question in this thread).

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I guess you don't do much product work, but that's not true. Here, I'll show you:

"Our hides are so blemish free that they require no surface treatment ... however for color uniformity and durability we spray on a light polymer coating"

See what happened there? BMW left off that last part to make it sound better because they know misleading content will lead to internet myths.

That statement is very different that the one BMW has put out. Omitting the second portion would be misleading at best, and borderline false. Do some companies do it? Sure, but it's not responsible.

I understand you feel BMW's description of Merino is inaccurate or incomplete. Which is fine. However, until their description becomes disproven, everything else is just conjecture.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

I understand you feel BMW's description of Merino is inaccurate or incomplete. Which is fine. However, until their description becomes disproven, everything else is just conjecture.

There's nothing to disprove because they haven't made any product claims regarding a surface coating.

Another example: in this picture, my wife is so beautiful she requires no make-up. See? I didn't say she doesn't have any make-up on, so there's no claim to disprove, I've only stated my opinion about my wife.

Here's another BMW example:



You would be forgiven for thinking this means only ZCP cars have a modified bedplate, but actually ETK shows that the oil pan code is new for LCI cars. Further S55B30A engine ETK number is also new from1/1/2016 and is not exchangeable retrospectively and is the same for all post 1/1/2016 models including ZCP.

In short, there's no specific ZCP code for the engine vs the ZCP suspension where there is ... meaning all M4s have a modified bedplate. So why did BMW stick this misleading language here?

Marketing!