We Talk M3 / M4 Nurburgring Time, Electric Steering & Other Tech Highlights w/ BMW M

[solstice]

I often hear and sometime use the reviews of the 991 GT3 myself as reference to what is supposed to be good electric steering. I'd like to know if anyone here has driven the new GT3 and what you thought about the steering. I have not driven it, wish I had.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Really? Then why are so many members (myself included) commenting on how they, "never would have considered it before, but are now."

And last I checked, I could afford a Corvette, but not a Ferrari, Lambo or Porsche.

The proof will be when you (and they) pull the trigger and buy a C7. Until then, it's just you (and they) trying to assuage your hurt feelings by downplaying the advances the new M3/4 presents. You can wax poetic about your "feelings" in your E9X, and how it's "the last true M," but the past is the past.

So do it. Buy the C7. And if there's one M3/M4 left on a dealer lot at the end of next year, we'll know you were right.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I can only assume this is a typo. In the other threads, the weight difference was listed as 40kg (88lb) on the DIN weight for both the M3 and M4.

I calculated 81 lb & change based on the data initially posted by Jason:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=159

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Then the F82 is probably too fast for you

My guess is that it probably is easier to drive at the same pace as a E92 M3 at 10/10ths (driving around a track doing the same lap times, and with the F82 driven at roughly 9/10ths and the E92 at 10/10ths), and not worse than a E92 when the F82 is driven at 10/10ths.

By any other logic, a 991 Carrera should be much more tricky to drive on a track than a older 996 Carrera... (since the 991 Carrera is significantly faster than the 996).

There's a difference between tricky to drive and the driver having the balls to drive at 10/10ths when 10/10ths is 10s quicker than it used to be... To me, tricky to drive meens unpredictable behaviour, sudden oversteer, a tricky power delivery that's hard to modulate etc. Not that the car has the ability to go faster than I dare to drive it

I agree with your logic, but I disagree between which car will be easier to drive to its full potential (or how close a given drive can come to each cars' full potential). the e90 is so easy to drive because of its incredibly quick throttle response and its long and flat torque curve (a curve so flat you could snort coc' off of it). while it remains to be tested, the F82 will not have as responsive of a throttle nor as flat as a torque curve up to redline (this much we already know).

notwithstanding, I can't wait to drive this thing.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I calculated 81 lb & change based on the data initially posted by Jason:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=159

I am relying in data published in those two threads where the official DIN weight numbers for DCT and 6MT M3 and M4 are posted:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...34&postcount=1

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...43&postcount=1

Both show +40kg for DCT equipped cars.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by dreamspeed

AWD is coming whether we like it or not.

Money talks

The next M5 and M6 will be considered for XDrive. But BMW M will still offer the RWD M5 and M6 so it will remain a personal choice , a Necessity for all wheel drive? or the much lighter RWD model?

The next 5er will not be as Carbon Intensive on the outer skin as the 7er.
The 5er will be what lies below the surface although body panels continue as aluminium skins.

Its underneath the skin in the heaviest areas in the structure of the 5er and 6er which will be a mixture of pressed steel , CFRP , magnesium and aluminium.
The trick to reducing further weight in the 5er comes from lighter components from the 3er which does contribute to a much significant lighter car than the current 5er.

The G30 520d weights around the same as an F30 320d.

The M5 will allow the lightweight philosophy to flourish at M. As bootlid and hood will be CFRP and as a first for the M5 a Carbon Roof panel.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Are you saying that BMW test drivers are too chicken to take the F8X to the edge? I doubt it. It's IMO more likely that they are better capable to consistently take the maximum out of the E9X than the F8X due to the FI power delivery being a bit more "tricky" to modulate.

I regard myself as a decent driver but have no illusions of being able to best BMWs pros.

No, my wording was perhaps a bit confusing...

What I meant was that to get the same lap times as a E92 the F82 only needs to be driven at 9/10ths (roughly). So it should be easier to drive the F82 at the same pace (lap time) as the E92. Because at that pace you still have a bit of reserve left in the F82.

And I see no reason (with engine response being an unknown as of now) why the F82 should be trickier to drive at 10/10ths than the E92? It might need a bit more guts from the driver as it reaches higher levels of performance. But that is not the same as a car that is tricky to drive. Just like a GT3 is quicker than a Carrera 2S doesn't mean the GT3 is trickier to drive fast, but since it goes so much faster the driver is also pushing his own limits more.

[Clemenza]

M3/M4: Sloppy drivers need not apply

“The M3/M4 won’t tolerate sloppy throttle inputs. It’s without a doubt the highest-performance road car M has built, but it also requires a LOT of talent to drive ... at least BMW has a network of driver’s schools to help there, starting with the teen driving program up through the BMW CCA race schools.”

- A BMW employee who’s driven the new M3


Read more: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...#ixzz2qVJodPhu

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I agree with your logic, but I disagree between which car will be easier to drive to its full potential (or how close a given drive can come to each cars' full potential). the e90 is so easy to drive because of its incredibly quick throttle response and its long and flat torque curve (a curve so flat you could snort coc' off of it). while it remains to be tested, the F82 will not have as responsive of a throttle nor as flat as a torque curve up to redline (this much we already know).

notwithstanding, I can't wait to drive this thing.

Yup, that's my experience of the E90 vs. every FI car I've driven to date. I expect the F8X to be better than any of those FI cars but that it will still be a bit trickier than the E90 in this regard. It is speculation though so we'll see.

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

The proof will be when you (and they) pull the trigger and buy a C7. Until then, it's just you (and they) trying to assuage your hurt feelings by downplaying the advances the new M3/4 presents. You can wax poetic about your "feelings" in your E9X, and how it's "the last true M," but the past is the past.

So do it. Buy the C7. And if there's one M3/M4 left on a dealer lot at the end of next year, we'll know you were right.

I didn't say anything about the, "last true M." I just said the Corvette has become a pretty worthy competitor to the M4 when previous generations couldn't really claim as much. The old Corvette was a red neck driving ACDelco parts bin car. The new one has clearly improved fit and finish and interior design by huge leaps. You disagree?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The E46 had 216hp/1000kg
The E92 had 253hp/1000kg
The F82 has 272hp/1000kg

A 37hp/1000kg improvement on the E92 vs E46
A 19hp/1000kg improvement on the F82 vs E92

Yes, the E92 had a larger increase in relative power as well, but it's not fair to look at just engine hp numbers. The E92 gained a bit of weight which offset the power gain.

And weight is bad for acceleration, braking and cornering, loosing weight gives you gains in all those areas. Increasing power, and not reducing weight, only aids acceleration.

Other factors to the advantage of the F8X (at the risk of repeating myself ):

- The 425hp of the S55 is likely underrated by a good 20-30hp
- The very broad power plateau of the S55

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Clemenza

M3/M4: Sloppy drivers need not apply

“The M3/M4 won’t tolerate sloppy throttle inputs. It’s without a doubt the highest-performance road car M has built, but it also requires a LOT of talent to drive ... at least BMW has a network of driver’s schools to help there, starting with the teen driving program up through the BMW CCA race schools.”

- A BMW employee who’s driven the new M3


Read more: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...#ixzz2qVJodPhu

Driven it on a track or around Detroit ? 😉

[Jeef]

I disagree but liking of corvette is all ones opinion.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Clemenza

M3/M4: Sloppy drivers need not apply

“The M3/M4 won’t tolerate sloppy throttle inputs. It’s without a doubt the highest-performance road car M has built, but it also requires a LOT of talent to drive ... at least BMW has a network of driver’s schools to help there, starting with the teen driving program up through the BMW CCA race schools.”

- A BMW employee who’s driven the new M3


Read more: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...#ixzz2qVJodPhu

Yeah, this is not unexpected. Sounds more than a little exaggeration though. Sure high performance rwd FI cars are a bit tricky but c'mon it's not like a 1980 911 Turbo, DSC is a very competent co-driver. But yes, it will likely take a lot more skill to balance these at full clip with DSC completely off than an E9XM. But hey any chance to promote some BMW products I guess ( driving school ).

[dimabimmer]

wow
great read!

[ACE_M3]

Originally Posted by Judah

Actually, BMW M has already previously publicly stated the xdrive system will most likely be added to the M5 and M6,(also M7, as that looks to be on for the next generation) as optional and not the M3/4 which is what the Q and A is about.

Did you read the question? The question included M5/6, not just the M3/4.

[ufgtrs2007]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The next M5 and M6 will be considered for XDrive. But BMW M will still offer the RWD M5 and M6 so it will remain a personal choice , a Necessity for all wheel drive? or the much lighter RWD model?

The next 5er will not be as Carbon Intensive on the outer skin as the 7er.
The 5er will be what lies below the surface although body panels continue as aluminium skins.

Its underneath the skin in the heaviest areas in the structure of the 5er and 6er which will be a mixture of pressed steel , CFRP , magnesium and aluminium.
The trick to reducing further weight in the 5er comes from lighter components from the 3er which does contribute to a much significant lighter car than the current 5er.

The G30 520d weights around the same as an F30 320d.

The M5 will allow the lightweight philosophy to flourish at M. As bootlid and hood will be CFRP and as a first for the M5 a Carbon Roof panel.

I love the direction BMW is headed regarding driving dynamics and implementation of Light weight technology!

It's an exciting time!!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Again, don't agree

The BMW published accerlation quotes are correct and accurate, and can be considered facts since they published them and he did not misquote BMW.

Whether you choose to believe them or not is your decision.

I for one would assume that they are correct (or at least the relative relationship between models) until proven otherwise. It always has been, and I cant see why that wouldn't be the case now.

But, we will see once the cars are officially tested. I think the difference in zero to 100mph, quarter mile trap speed and especially in gear acceleration will be significant. The power curves and data support this. The s55 has a large advantage in average power over the s65.

You are obviously extremely enthousiastic about the F8X and good for you. Don't let that enthousiasm cloud your objectivity though (i.e. don't be a fanboy).

Re-read this post you posted, it clearly lacks objectivity. Multiple idependent tests did prove that the E92 got a better improvement over the E46 from 0-100km/h than what BMW published. BMW published performance numbers are known to be not the most accurate or reliable. So taking them as "fact" is not objective.

I am not a E92 fanboy and I don't hate the F8X. So far, it is pretty obvious to me that the F8X will outperform the E9X. By how much, this remains to be seen. BTW, I will still (most likely) be getting an M4, my E92 is getting too old .

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Clemenza

M3/M4: Sloppy drivers need not apply

“The M3/M4 won’t tolerate sloppy throttle inputs. It’s without a doubt the highest-performance road car M has built, but it also requires a LOT of talent to drive ... at least BMW has a network of driver’s schools to help there, starting with the teen driving program up through the BMW CCA race schools.”

- A BMW employee who’s driven the new M3


Read more: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...#ixzz2qVJodPhu

Funny find

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are obviously extremely enthousiastic about the F8X and good for you. Don't let that enthousiasm cloud your objectivity though (i.e. don't be a fanboy).

Re-read this post you posted, it clearly lacks objectivity. Multiple idependent tests did prove that the E92 got a better improvement over the E46 from 0-100km/h than what BMW published. BMW published performance numbers are known not to be accurate and reliable. So taking them as "fact" is not objective.

I am not a E92 fanboy and I don't hate the F8X. So far, it is pretty obvious to me that the F8X will outperform the E9X. By how much, this remains to be seen. BTW, I will still (most likely) be getting an M4, my E92 is getting too old .

to keep it really simple, my point is this.

the e46 m3 was tested faster than BMW officially stated
the e92 m3 was tested faster than BMW officially stated

it stands to reason that the f8x would also test faster than BMW officially stated. considering that, I think its fair to assume that the f8x m3 will be significantly quicker because BMW quotes it as such.

it may run less than 4 secs 0-60, but I do expect the difference in times on average to be around what BMW states, which is .5 seconds

and yea, I am enthusiastic about the car, but its not perfect for sure. the styling of the front end is still not my favorite, and the size of the car is a little larger than id prefer.

but overall, I think its an improvement on the things I personally thought could be better on the e9x m3

[JRV]

Seems to be a lot of attacks on e9x m3 owners stating why their not impressed. Did it ever occur to any of the non e9x m3 owners that maybe this car isn't worth another $65,000.00+ of improvements for the average joe. I mean it's an adult person lighter and has about 110 ft/lb more torque at the crank, the biggest improvements.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by JRV

Seems to be a lot of attacks on e9x m3 owners stating why their not impressed. Did it ever occur to any of the non e9x m3 owners that maybe this car isn't worth another $65,000.00+ of improvements for the average joe. I mean it's an adult person lighter and has about 110 ft/lb more torque at the crank, the biggest improvements.

What a way to approach the situation with your eyes wide shut. For months, many E9X owners have attacked a car that hasn't even been released for public consumption. Now that more figures are appearing, lovers of the F8X are armed with more information.......information that is germane and factual.