Photos: BMW M4 Coupe Plays in Snow at BMW Driving Experience

[solstice]

Take it from a swede, best in winter is good ol steel rims due to the flex in the smallest size that clears the brakes to allow for maximum tire wall to save you when hitting pot holes or sliding into the curb and high profile tires also often come with deeper groves. For tire brand? Trust the Finns, Nokian Hakkapelittas are great winter tires studded or not. Now, there probably aren't steel rims to get to an M3 so the cheapest 18 or 17 if possible will be 2nd best and yeah as already said, narrow is better.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Jockey

AWD and 4WD just gets you deeper into the ditch when you slide off the road. They brake just as well as a FWD or RWD car in the snow. It's all about the tires (and obviously your speed).

but when I am changing lanes through slush, its nice to have that all wheel drive where the front wheels can pick up slippage from the rear.

most people don't understand AWD only helps when your foot is on the gas, AWD DOES NOT aid in steering or braking, that's is where good snow tires come in. BUT to say that RWD is as good in the snow as AWD is just flat out

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Mako

but when I am changing lanes through slush, its nice to have that all wheel drive where the front wheels can pick up slippage from the rear.

most people don't understand AWD only helps when your foot is on the gas, AWD DOES NOT aid in steering or braking, that's is where good snow tires come in. BUT to say that RWD is as good in the snow as AWD is just flat out

Agree but RWD is good enough unless you commute over a steep snowy pass ( often the rules are AWD or chains when it gets thick and who wants to fiddle with chains ). In the end if you live in a place were rwd with excellent snow tires aren't enough you probably shouldn't have an M4 or RS5 as your only car. It's IMO too dear of cars to have messed up by salt trucks, trucks with chains spraying rocks and dirt allover the place etc. and the limited ground clearance will get you AWD or not. AWD is nice to have but not worth buying a car you find otherwise inferior for when shopping sports cars IMO.

[sor]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Awesome photos.

Snow tires for the win.

A staggered setup may be optimal for winter hooliganism, but to ride safely you'd want a square setup with the most narrow tires possible (less surface area and thus the narrower tires tend to ride on top of the snow whereas wide tires sink down and plow through it, which is not good).

Kind of the opposite. Narrower tires are better because they have less surface area and put more pounds per square inch to the ground, plowing through the snow and squeezing onto what's under the tire. Wider tires float on the snow (like snowshoes or skis) due to greater surface area. Especially for steering, you want to dig in.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by sor

Kind of the opposite. Narrower tires are better because they have less surface area and put more pounds per square inch to the ground, plowing through the snow and squeezing onto what's under the tire. Wider tires float on the snow (like snowshoes or skis) due to greater surface area. Especially for steering, you want to dig in.

Yeah I indicated that the narrower tires have less surface area. What I meant by riding on top of the snow is what you explained as pushing down on it in order to utilize the winter tire's particular tread pattern.

And by plow I meant that the wider tires, with their greater surface area, tend not to cut through the snow like the narrow tires do.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

A staggered setup may be optimal for winter hooliganism, but to ride safely you'd want a square setup with the most narrow tires possible (less surface area and thus the narrower tires tend to ride on top of the snow whereas wide tires sink down and plow through it, which is not good).

Narrow tires have a number of advantages, no doubt. In my case I prefer the staggered setup for maximum performance on dry winter roads. On the plus side, from the sum total of over a decade of winters spent in M3s on staggered snow tires (on stock 18" wheels), I've never had an accident, always felt very safe, and found the cars handle and perform exactly how I expect. I'm no hot-shoe so I chalk it up to brilliant chassis development by the fine folks in M division.

Be safe out there, and have fun!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by sor

Kind of the opposite. Narrower tires are better because they have less surface area and put more pounds per square inch to the ground, plowing through the snow and squeezing onto what's under the tire. Wider tires float on the snow (like snowshoes or skis) due to greater surface area. Especially for steering, you want to dig in.

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Yeah I indicated that the narrower tires have less surface area. What I meant by riding on top of the snow is what you explained as pushing down on it in order to utilize the winter tire's particular tread pattern.

And by plow I meant that the wider tires, with their greater surface area, tend not to cut through the snow like the narrow tires do.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Narrow tires have a number of advantages, no doubt. In my case I prefer the staggered setup for maximum performance on dry winter roads. On the plus side, from the sum total of over a decade of winters spent in M3s on staggered snow tires (on stock 18" wheels), I've never had an accident, always felt very safe, and found the cars handle and perform exactly how I expect. I'm no hot-shoe so I chalk it up to brilliant chassis development by the fine folks in M division.

Be safe out there, and have fun!

The debeate on narrow vs wide winter tires is an old one. And there are at least two different schools of thought on this subject.

But, according to Teppo Huovila of Nokian Tyres, the argument for much narrower winter tires isn't really valid anymore. The manufacturer's advised tire dimensions is the best compromise in most conditions. He says that modern low profile tires are much better as concerns both lateral grip and traction. The one area a narrow tire might be better is on slush type of surface, where a wide tire might experience aqua (slush) planing. So, unless you drive on slush most of the winter, the manufacturers suggested tire sizes is allways better than narrow high profile tires...

All of the above according to Nokian...

[swifty]

How narrow can you go with the current e90 series. Ppl who have gone lower than 255 have been facing stability issues on the highway at higher speeds.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Boss330

But, according to Teppo Huovila of Nokian Tyres, the argument for much narrower winter tires isn't really valid anymore...

It is going to be interesting to see if BMW indeed recommends the stock wheel setup with winter tire widths the same as the stock summer tire widths (which is presumably what we see in these photos) for cars with CCB. And, for that matter, if they recommend a similar thing for cars with the standard brakes.

In the past, for the E9x M3 anyway, there has been an OEM non-staggered wheel and recommended tire setup. In fact, if we look at the older thread about a similar driving school in Sweden that featured the E92 M3, you can see they used those wheels:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121955

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Narrow tires have a number of advantages, no doubt. In my case I prefer the staggered setup for maximum performance on dry winter roads. On the plus side, from the sum total of over a decade of winters spent in M3s on staggered snow tires (on stock 18" wheels), I've never had an accident, always felt very safe, and found the cars handle and perform exactly how I expect. I'm no hot-shoe so I chalk it up to brilliant chassis development by the fine folks in M division.

Be safe out there, and have fun!

Very interesting. I'm going to have to try a staggered setup next time around. Perhaps on the F80?

Probably going to keep the narrow square setup on the C63 though. It's a heavier car. Although I hate looking at the skinny rear tires in the winter. And every time I want to have a little bit of fun in dry conditions the rears become instantly outmatched.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It is going to be interesting to see if BMW indeed recommends the stock wheel setup with winter tire widths the same as the stock summer tire widths (which is presumably what we see in these photos) for car's with CCB. And for that matter if they recommend a similar thing for cars' with the standard brakes.

In the past, for the E9x M3 anyway, there has been an OEM non-staggered wheel and recommended tire setup. In fact, if we look at the older thread about a similar driving school in Sweden that featured the E92 M3, you can see they used those wheels:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121955

As far as I know, the F10 M5 also has a square winter tire setup. But with different offset on the wheels f/r...

The OEM F10 M5 winter setup is 19" style 408M with 255/40/19 Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero2. It's a 19x9 wheel, with ET32 (front) and ET25 (rear).

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/owners/acces...poke_408M.html

[absoluteis350]

I'd like to see the M4 do this .. 1 foot of snow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=avSxOvJnE68

[RealStig]

I have been using RWD cars for years in NJ with snow tires and never got stuck, lost control, or got in any trouble in any weather. I drove in blizzards, ice storms, snow storms, heck i just drove into 2.5 feet of soft snow the front of the M was full of snow all air intakes were stuffed with and M never let me down.

I have seen so many Mercs or Audis that are AWDs that got stuck on the side of the road though, so many times. Upstate newyork or pallisades around bear mountain can get pretty nasty, my bad boy doesnt care what weather is and I always see them AWDs on the side of the road cant move on an inch on ice or steep hills.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Boss330

As far as I know, the F10 M5 also has a square winter tire setup. But with different offset on the wheels f/r...

The OEM F10 M5 winter setup is 19" style 408M with 255/40/19 Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero2. It's a 19x9 wheel, with ET32 (front) and ET25 (rear).

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/owners/acces...poke_408M.html

Thanks for the link. So, yeah, they might recommend the same or similar setup for the M3. I wonder if those are the same wheels as seen on the F83 M3 convertible winter testing spy shots in the thread currently in this forum? They look very similar. It would somewhat make sense for them to recommend the same wheels if the offsets work with the M3. The only weird thing would be for owners with 18" wheels (no CCB) since they would more than likely want an 18" winter setup as well.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It is going to be interesting to see if BMW indeed recommends the stock wheel setup with winter tire widths the same as the stock summer tire widths (which is presumably what we see in these photos) for cars with CCB. And, for that matter, if they recommend a similar thing for cars with the standard brakes.

In the past, for the E9x M3 anyway, there has been an OEM non-staggered wheel and recommended tire setup. In fact, if we look at the older thread about a similar driving school in Sweden that featured the E92 M3, you can see they used those wheels:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121955

I am hoping that the F8X will have the same offset as the E9X so I can use my 270M winter wheels on my new M4.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Boss330

As far as I know, the F10 M5 also has a square winter tire setup. But with different offset on the wheels f/r...

The OEM F10 M5 winter setup is 19" style 408M with 255/40/19 Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero2. It's a 19x9 wheel, with ET32 (front) and ET25 (rear).

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/owners/acces...poke_408M.html

It occurs to me that the M5/M6 CCB require the optional 20" wheels just like the M3/M4 CCB require the optional 19" wheels.

So the OEM 19" 408M winter wheel will not work with the CCB on the F1x M and similarly this appears to be the case for the F8x OEM winter wheel. SCOTT confirms that the wheels on the F83 performing winter testing are the new F8x winter OEM setup and they appear to be 18". It is likely why the car in this thread has the factory 19" wheel instead.

I'm sure that most of the people purchasing the CCB don't plan to use the car year round in a snowy climate, but for anyone who might, this is something to think about. And it's not just about the OEM wheel either, it's the fact that 19" snow tires are not as common as 18" so there are less choices out there. I'm not sure what M5/M6 owners with CCB do; I don't know if there are any 20" low profile snow tires. I guess they just use all-seasons (which probably aren't common in this size either) or park the car for the winter

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The debeate on narrow vs wide winter tires is an old one. And there are at least two different schools of thought on this subject.

But, according to Teppo Huovila of Nokian Tyres, the argument for much narrower winter tires isn't really valid anymore. The manufacturer's advised tire dimensions is the best compromise in most conditions. He says that modern low profile tires are much better as concerns both lateral grip and traction. The one area a narrow tire might be better is on slush type of surface, where a wide tire might experience aqua (slush) planing. So, unless you drive on slush most of the winter, the manufacturers suggested tire sizes is allways better than narrow high profile tires...

All of the above according to Nokian...

What about when the manufacturer recommends a narrower tire for winter ?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What about when the manufacturer recommends a narrower tire for winter ?

Low profile tires is rubbish in real winter conditions simple because they provide less impact protection. Ice and snow generates severe damage to roads with wash board surfaces, hidden obstacles as frozen pebbles, rocks etc. They also float easier in deep snow. If you want a smooth ride with little risk for damage choose the highest profile available in winter. Now, winter conditions vary greatly and the optimal tire choice follows. I.e to run on rallye like studs when you have a couple of days with snow and the rest with bare roads is just as crazy as running summer tires in deep snow...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Low profile tires is rubbish in real winter conditions simple because they provide less impact protection. Ice and snow generates severe damage to roads with wash board surfaces, hidden obstacles as frozen pebbles, rocks etc. They also float easier in deep snow. If you want a smooth ride with little risk for damage choose the highest profile available in winter. Now, winter conditions vary greatly and the optimal tire choice follows. I.e to run on rallye like studs when you have a couple of days with snow and the rest with bare roads is just as crazy as running summer tires in deep snow...

Agreed. I use a square 235/40R18 setup on the OEM 270M winter wheels and they have worked really well for me for 6 winters so far.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Agreed. I use a square 235/40R18 setup on the OEM 270M winter wheels and they have worked really well for me for 6 winters so far.

Sounds good, I would probably even have gone 235/45 if available. I ran my E30s on 185/60 profiles in winter if I remember right but you also don't want to limit suspension travel with snow building under the fenders...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What about when the manufacturer recommends a narrower tire for winter ?

I think that was what the Nokian guy meant! Go with what the manufacturer recommends! Don't go narrower and taller than that (generally).

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Sounds good, I would probably even have gone 235/45 if available. I ran my E30s on 185/60 profiles in winter if I remember right but you also don't want to limit suspension travel with snow building under the fenders...

Isn't a 40 profile tire a low profile tire?

And with a narrower tire such as a 235, a 40 profile tire has even less sidewall than a 255/40 tire...

(40 means that the sidewall is 40% of the tire width)

Seems contradictive to say you don't want a low profile tire for winter and then saying that a 235/40 tire is good? You do say that 45 is better though, and that is something I agree with. But we are still talking low profile

And it wasn't my opinion BTW, I was just quoting an expert from Nokian Hakkappeliita