My Comprehensive Review of M3/M4 - High Definition Pictures/FAQ Included

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by //M sa

What your saying just doesn't add up, who spends 70k + on a car that doesn't impress them? I think you need to rethink your priorities if all you care about the BMW brand... I saw the cars in person, I compared them to many other cars at the show with the same price tag and I was impressed with interior and exterior and the power output advertised by BMW. Now I have to drive it to be sure but I have a pretty good idea that it will not disappoint.

The same is true for me as well. I dont disagree with you. At this price point, M3 is the best car in its class in every aspect. Maybe I am no longer in that price range but for some reason cannot bring myself into driving 4400 lbs cars I think I'll be fine with the M3

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by RealStig

You are right and I think where I am wrong is the whole affordability aspects of it. You see, for a lot of people who can only afford a 65-70k car, this is the best thing for them and in that price point, it is indeed the best car. If were to factor in the price, I'd probably remove half of the negative points I raised, that being said, I can afford a far more expensive car than this, there just isn't one to my liking. I almost bought an M5, but it is just too heavy. As I said in my review, I wish BMW made a car that is the size of the M3 but with an M6 interior and priced it 20-25k above the M3. I would easily order one

Right, see, I think if you read over the above, think about the situation from the other perspective, and are honest with yourself about how it is delivered, you'll understand why your comments are being scrutinized so.

The thing is, there is an established market for the M3 and it is designed to fit that role. We can be critical of how well it delivers on that goal, but to criticize it for not fitting some very special needs or for not being able to fulfill some other purpose is usually not going to lead to a particularly meaningful conclusion.

[Congen]

Trust me on this don't buy the M car Realstig, never known why someone could be so negative about a car and actually buy it, I would never buy a car spending so much while picking it to bits

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Right, see, I think if you read over the above, think about the situation from the other perspective, and are honest with yourself about how it is delivered, you'll understand why your comments are being scrutinized so.

The thing is, there is an established market for the M3 and it is designed to fit that role. We can be critical of how well it delivers on that goal, but to criticize it for not fitting some very special needs or for not being able to fulfill some other purpose is usually not going to lead to a particularly meaningful conclusion.

No, that's all fair enough and I agree with you completely. So the whole comfort and seat argument then can be ignored and if you read my review, you'll see that a lot of these types of statements, I always began them with "I think..." or "I felt....".

The rest of it can be broken down to :

1. Things that were taken away : EPS, plastic center console, half/half full leather, armrest area, leather that wrinkles so easily (I actually think there is something wrong with those seats, maybe pre-production issues?)
2. Things that were bound to happen : Power dome
3. Things that I feel were bad design choices : Nonadjustable back seat headrests

But as you said, it's all about trade-offs. I wish it weren't, but unfortunately it isWhile we lose these things, we gain great features such as the HUD, rev matching, 33% improved torque, a car that weighs as much as the E46, sub 4s 0-60 performance, contrast stitching, and my favorite - 25% improved emissions! I guess you can't win it all, but it would be great if they had EPS, in fact, I'm sure many would be okay with the identical system that's on the E9X M3 with no upgrades!

Originally Posted by Congen

Trust me on this don't buy the M car Realstig, never known why someone could be so negative about a car and actually buy it, I would never buy a car spending so much while picking it to bits

This is the problem with internet forums You say 100 things that are good, say 1 thing many disagree, and they'll only talk about that 1 thing. Who says I am so negative about the car? I would not buy it if I didn't like it after all

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by RealStig

You are right and I think where I am wrong is the whole affordability aspects of it. You see, for a lot of people who can only afford a 65-70k car, this is the best thing for them and in that price point, it is indeed the best car. If were to factor in the price, I'd probably remove half of the negative points I raised, that being said, I can afford a far more expensive car than this, there just isn't one to my liking. I almost bought an M5, but it is just too heavy. As I said in my review, I wish BMW made a car that is the size of the M3 but with an M6 interior and priced it 20-25k above the M3. I would easily order one tomorrow.
!).

I gotcha. I just wouldn't pay more for a nicer interior because I think its really nice and sporty as is and don't think it would be worth more money to me. the problem is when you take a car that performs like the m3 and add 20k to it, it starts to not make as much sense. then you compete against cars like the 991s and the value really isn't there at 85k. it would be too expensive for a DD car like this imo, and that's what it is.

its not about being able to afford it, its about the value. to me, the perfect value is epitomized in the m3. the perfect price and quality for a sports sedan that can cruise in comfort and rip up the track (both of which I plan to do).

anyway, good luck on finding the right choice for you. cheers.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Right, see, I think if you read over the above, think about the situation from the other perspective, and are honest with yourself about how it is delivered, you'll understand why your comments are being scrutinized so.

The thing is, there is an established market for the M3 and it is designed to fit that role. We can be critical of how well it delivers on that goal, but to criticize it for not fitting some very special needs or for not being able to fulfill some other purpose is usually not going to lead to a particularly meaningful conclusion.

very well said

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by RealStig

No, that's all fair enough and I agree with you completely. So the whole comfort and seat argument then can be ignored and if you read my review, you'll see that a lot of these types of statements, I always began them with "I think..." or "I felt....".

The rest of it can be broken down to :

1. Things that were taken away : EPS, plastic center console, half/half full leather, armrest area, leather that wrinkles so easily (I actually think there is something wrong with those seats, maybe pre-production issues?)
2. Things that were bound to happen : Power dome
3. Things that I feel were bad design choices : Nonadjustable back seat headrests

But as you said, it's all about trade-offs. I wish it weren't, but unfortunately it isWhile we lose these things, we gain great features such as the HUD, rev matching, 33% improved torque, a car that weighs as much as the E46, sub 4s 0-60 performance, contrast stitching, and my favorite - 25% improved emissions! I guess you can't win it all, but it would be great if they had EPS, in fact, I'm sure many would be okay with the identical system that's on the E9X M3 with no upgrades!

well said

though I disagree on EPS. I think it is good, not great. maybe I don't know how to set it up properly, but I prefer the new HK setup. both are very good IMO.

[caneaddict]

Originally Posted by RealStig

The same is true for me as well. I dont disagree with you. At this price point, M3 is the best car in its class in every aspect. Maybe I am no longer in that price range but for some reason cannot bring myself into driving 4400 lbs cars I think I'll be fine with the M3

Its tough, when you go up in price to $100k+, buyers demand either a significantly more sporty car (eliminating 4 doors) or a much more luxurious experience and the only way to deliver that is with more weight. Have you driven the panamera? Handles great, but for me its too big just like the 5/6/7.

I'm in a similar boat, love the M4 but wish I could get a cabin that looks like the M6.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

well said

though I disagree on EPS. I think it is good, not great. maybe I don't know how to set it up properly, but I prefer the new HK setup. both are very good IMO.

With EPS, equalizer is extremely important. You also want to uncheck the L7 option. Lastly, you have to break it in really good for about an hour (may not sound too much, but it is actually a lot and takes several months) at close to maximum volume. It is a system, as I said in my review, that is not suitable for everyone. It's similar to the S55 vs S65 argument. It's true that S65 is not an engine that is suitable for everyday driving to extract its maximum potential (torque). You have to rev it so high. Whereas S55 is a lot easier on average joe, you have to torque right there on your foot at 1xxxRPMs. Same thing with the EPS vs HK. HK is a lot more user friendly, it has the bass right there, no need to turn the volume up. EPS is designed for crisp low bass. It's hard to explain, if you know anything about headsets my comparison of Bose vs Shure best explains it. In fact, if someone told me Shure design the EPS, I wouldn't be surprised

I'm also guessing BMW didn't go with EPS as it was a system that had a high cost to build (and make profit). It was an in house system and surely going with a separate brand is cheaper and easier to manage.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by caneaddict

Its tough, when you go up in price to $100k+, buyers demand either a significantly more sporty car (eliminating 4 doors) or a much more luxurious experience and the only way to deliver that is with more weight. Have you driven the panamera? Handles great, but for me its too big just like the 5/6/7.

I'm in a similar boat, love the M4 but wish I could get a cabin that looks like the M6.

I have not driven Panamera, but I sat on it in the auto show. I did not like the interior at all. I didn't like the leather, I didn't like how they have 50 different buttons everywhere, and I don't like chrome flashy frames all over the place. I really like BMW's subtle understated design, in fact, I love it. M6's interior is just simply stunning to me. I'm with you as well, if BMW offered a 100k car that is size of an M3/M4, I would be first one to buy it.

[Congen]

Your negatives far out way the positives! I just don't understand why you would buy it when your not that excited by it and think too many things are disappointing. The only thing I'm disappointed about the M4 I've ordered is the damn wait!

[jzmundy]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

just an observation

it seems like a lot of your concerns all relate to wanting a larger and more luxurious car. that's not really what the 3 series or m3 is. and that's why its at the price point it is, and that's why it drives as well as it does and is versatile.

the fact that you can get a car as nicely appointed and with the performance of the m3 for 65k with solid options is damn impressive in the day of the 35k camry / accord.

I personally wouldn't want to spend any more money on an m3 than it costs, and think it is very luxurious and well appointed. Ive driven a lot in the new m6 and don't think the m3 seats give up anything to the m6, they are both great. probably just depends on body type.

the plastic on the rear of the front seats is more of a sporty seat style, similar to a racing seat or the adaptive sports seats in a Porsche, which I like.

my point is that a lot of your comments just speak more to what you are looking for in a car rather than how the m3 fits into the market and matches up with its competition. this car takes the interior bar and raises it above the rs5, another car which I have driven for about 2500 miles. the interior of that car is much nicer than my e9x, but cant compete with the f8x.

JMO.

I agree.

Although I really appreciate the time spent by the OP to put together this thread (especially with the pics!).

[angelc5]

Originally Posted by Congen

Your negatives far out way the positives! I just don't understand why you would buy it when your not that excited by it and think too many things are disappointing. The only thing I'm disappointed about the M4 I've ordered is the damn wait!

Agree 100%

[Boss330]

I think that the main issues has been commented by others allready, and it really seems you wanted the car to be something it isn't (a M5 in a M3 body). Based on that, it's not strange that you where unimpressed by some parts of the car. The M3/4 is based on the 3/4-series and just as the interior in a F10 differs quite substantially from a F30, so should you expect the F8x to do from the F10 M5.

From your original post and later replies, it seems you just had unrealistic expectations...

My thoughts, not having seen the car, is that some of the "issues" might also be related to weight saving. Such as interior plastic, seat cushioning etc.

And, the seating position is supposedly lower (at least according to German Magazines). Perhaps the lower seating position plays a part in the power dome not being visible in the F8X?

[/// M sa]

If you can afford a much more expensive car perhaps you can pay BMW to make one just for you :-)

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by //M sa

If you can afford a much more expensive car perhaps you can pay BMW to make one just for you :-)

Nice one, you got me!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by //M sa

If you can afford a much more expensive car perhaps you can pay BMW to make one just for you :-)

Also called BMW Individual

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by RealStig

The rest of it can be broken down to :

1. Things that were taken away : EPS, plastic center console, half/half full leather, armrest area, leather that wrinkles so easily (I actually think there is something wrong with those seats, maybe pre-production issues?)
2. Things that were bound to happen : Power dome
3. Things that I feel were bad design choices : Nonadjustable back seat headrests

But as you said, it's all about trade-offs. I wish it weren't, but unfortunately it isWhile we lose these things, we gain great features such as the HUD, rev matching, 33% improved torque, a car that weighs as much as the E46, sub 4s 0-60 performance, contrast stitching, and my favorite - 25% improved emissions!

A very sensible summation.

There are some things from your review which I agree with you on, by the way, such as the CF interior looking too shiny. It's all subjective of course, but I'd go with the aluminum as well. Actually, I'd prefer a satin black plastic with a color-keyed finisher the same color as the exterior paint.

[RealStig]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I think that the main issues has been commented by others allready, and it really seems you wanted the car to be something it isn't (a M5 in a M3 body). Based on that, it's not strange that you where unimpressed by some parts of the car.

My thoughts, not having seen the car, is that some of the "issues" might also be related to weight saving. Such as interior plastic, seat cushioning etc.

And, the seating position is supposedly lower (at least according to German Magazines). Perhaps the lower seating position plays a part in the power dome not being visible in the F8X?

I thought about the lower seating as well and increased the seat level to the maximum height, but it made no difference. I believe part of the problem is the shape of the new hood itself. The hood itself is very curvy and have these high lines on the sides hiding the power dome.

Also, would like to mention again as I already have a few times, there was more to my review than the comfort aspect of things which everyone seems to conveniently ignoring. What bothers me is that I don't like this car or in fact any car to be faultless and perfect in people's mind to the point of ignorance. Yes maybe one aspect I mentioned is uncalled for (comfort/rear seats), but a lot of stuff I raised were valid points, things that existed in the current car and were taken away. People need to open their eyes and do what I do which is accept the car for what it is and move on. I like this car as is and believe its a great compromise. I am hoping once I drive it, I am going to forget about everything else. M cars are all about driving (or at least M3 is)!

[Boss330]

Looking at the pictures, I don't really see that the power dome is smaller/lower. It actually looks more sculpted than on the E9x (all based on just pictures).

Are you sure it's not the lower seating position making it harder to see?

Anyone else that has seen the cars that have any views on this?

[Congen]

Bloody hell not looking forward to your review of your driving it then hehe

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by RealStig

I have not driven Panamera, but I sat on it in the auto show. I did not like the interior at all. I didn't like the leather, I didn't like how they have 50 different buttons everywhere, and I don't like chrome flashy frames all over the place. I really like BMW's subtle understated design, in fact, I love it. M6's interior is just simply stunning to me. I'm with you as well, if BMW offered a 100k car that is size of an M3/M4, I would be first one to buy it.

The interior is an acquired taste. I don't care for the gazillion buttons and prefer the iDrive but since my wife's car is a current gen Cayenne, you do get used to it. Let's put it this way, I'm more used to the buttons in that car than I am in my MDX and I've had that car near 6 and a half years.

The leather in the P-Car must be upgraded.

But you have to drive the car. It drives outstanding. I drove a Panamera Turbo and it blew away the M5.

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by RealStig

You should definitely order the HK sound system because the standard sound system I heard in 335i M package was nothing like this. In fact, there is even more reason to order HK because of the whole active sound thing in my opinion and it doesn't cost that much money at all. I did pull the trunk cover where they keep the wheel glue thing (if thats the area you are talking about) and I believe you could fit a nice amp there. That being said, I wouldn't bother with it if you are going to lease it. The electronics in these are car extremely complicated.

Modifying the audio in a lease doesn't bother me. I do pretty clean and reversible installs. Of course I'll need more details about the wiring once it's released. I just had concerns of the HK system vs stock if one is planning on installing their own anyway.

I wonder if the audio system is similar to the F30s.