Struggle at slow harpin

[shaftwhy]

I recently struggle with a turn. Well, I struggle with all turns but this one is the fun one.

It is a 40-ish MPH slow hairpin that I trail brake into and try to maintain the brake pressure to help the car to rotate. M laptimer shows that I was pulling 0.98 G, so I wouldn't consider it as very fast/high. But I feel the struggle of needing to balance my foot on brake and hands on steering wheel, at the same time to keep my butt in place. But I don't think I can actually move in the seat since I sit pretty snuggly with bolster adjusted to tightest. But the feeling of not sitting snuggly always happens at that turn.

Any advice how to narrow down the issue here?

[Caliboy951]

I'm not exactly sure what your issue is but they're three parts to each turn: entry, mid corner and exit so I'd break it down to which one of those you are having issues with?
I've had corners where I almost park the car before I turn in and I end up turning a faster lap time (the slow down to go faster theory).

[MaynardZed]

Are you locking yourself into the seatbelt? Hard to work on all the other stuff if you’re sliding around the seat. Ideally the seat and your body shouldn’t be something you have to even think about.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Are you locking yourself into the seatbelt? Hard to work on all the other stuff if you’re sliding around the seat. Ideally the seat and your body shouldn’t be something you have to even think about.

I haven't been very successful to lock the seatbelt. Will definitely try more about this.

[nicknaz]

Hi, one other interesting idea to try with your data logger is instead of using a trailing brake, just slow to the appropriate corner entry speed, then roll on the throttle as soon as possible after the turn in. There's so much power you can easily get the rotation from throttle.

you can see which approach gets you the most corner exit speed and go from there

EDIT: I saw you are using some kind of app. Does it have enough GPS resolution to give you entry, mid corner and exit speeds

[MyFragileHalogen]

Try the CG-lock. It locks your seat-belt tight and keeps your butt in the place really tight. I run CG-lock + torso harness in Miata with crappy factory seats (because I am too cheap to spend 3K+ for race seat lol). But it surprisingly works well and help me do very well so far. For M4, you will have to be careful with it not to scratch nice leather seats though.

[HighlyMedicated]

Brake earliar not so late that the g forces are more in the turn than slowing down. Or speeding up. You should get a feel of the apex and motions but your butt factoring and regulating the brakes isnt the way to become faster. All motorsport cars brake hard before turns and are modulating the gas pedal not the brake in a turn. If braking mid point you came in to fast which will ultimately lower your exit speed and everyone knows its all about the exit speed to the next turn. Feel it out with how much brake and apex turn in with pedal modulation when driving past the same turn over time. You shall soon he the point you feel comfortable and fast without the umm butt huggin affecting you. Sure 4 point harness will help but thats for safety in a crash not for holding you in like a roller coaster. Formula 1 drivers at 3-4g in turns are from the pressure is already pushing u into the seat not the harness.
Different driving techniques of course factor but logically to become faster mid point turns are graceful but entering and exiting are violent! Practice makes perfect!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HighlyMedicated

Brake earliar not so late that the g forces are more in the turn than slowing down. Or speeding up. You should get a feel of the apex and motions but your butt factoring and regulating the brakes isnt the way to become faster. All motorsport cars brake hard before turns and are modulating the gas pedal not the brake in a turn. If braking mid point you came in to fast which will ultimately lower your exit speed and everyone knows its all about the exit speed to the next turn. Feel it out with how much brake and apex turn in with pedal modulation when driving past the same turn over time. You shall soon he the point you feel comfortable and fast without the umm butt huggin affecting you. Sure 4 point harness will help but thats for safety in a crash not for holding you in like a roller coaster. Formula 1 drivers at 3-4g in turns are from the pressure is already pushing u into the seat not the harness.
Different driving techniques of course factor but logically to become faster mid point turns are graceful but entering and exiting are violent! Practice makes perfect!

That simply isn't true.

While the basic brake in straight line, maintenance throttle from turn-in to apex and then accelerate and unwind from apex to track out is being tought in most HPDE because it is the easiest a safest way to take a corner, it is not the fastest way around a corner. Look at data logs or videos with telemetry of racing cars, they (almost) always decelerate all the way to the apex and then accelerate from there. I carry some amount of trail braking in almost every corner. As the car decelerates, it transfers weight on the front axle which allows it to rotate more to be better positioned for the exit. Further, by having a higher speed at turn-in, one carries a higher average speed between turn-in to apex and hence needing less time to travel that distance. However, mastering the technique of modulating/releasing the brakes perfectly to ride the edge of the friction circle as the car is progressively turning in requires skill and practice.

Also not true about your comments regarding the harness. The tighter the driver is connected to the car (through a snug fitting seat hard mounted to the car and firmly held into it with a proper harness) the better the driver can feel and anticipate was is going on.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

I recently struggle with a turn. Well, I struggle with all turns but this one is the fun one.

It is a 40-ish MPH slow hairpin that I trail brake into and try to maintain the brake pressure to help the car to rotate. M laptimer shows that I was pulling 0.98 G, so I wouldn't consider it as very fast/high. But I feel the struggle of needing to balance my foot on brake and hands on steering wheel, at the same time to keep my butt in place. But I don't think I can actually move in the seat since I sit pretty snuggly with bolster adjusted to tightest. But the feeling of not sitting snuggly always happens at that turn.

Any advice how to narrow down the issue here?

Is the turn a left hander?

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Is the turn a left hander?

Yes it is! How do you know?

To update: I did try lock myself this time and I think I failed multiple times, again.
Now I think, probably because I needed to switch to R after all the locking trick, then the car released the seat belt at gear change.

I also moved my seat a few notch closer to steering wheel. I felt I go faster at that turn now, with better modulation on brake and steering angle. However, my butt was actually moving around now with going faster. After that turn, I had to push myself back to the seat a little bit, LOL. Guess have to practice locking more

As to modulate gas after apex. Due to a run off last year, I am intentionally leaving that on the table, especially at tight turn that I can easily get greedy and send the rear end the wrong way. I personally feel trail braking is a bit safer to me because when shit goes wrong, releasing the pedal is somewhat natural to me. I probably will get to optimizing exiting after I improve other aspects and become a better driver.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Yes it is! How do you know?

Quite simple. In general, your left foot is free to rest on the footrest with your leg against the door to help you brace yourself into the seat in a right hand turn. When you are braking while turning left, your right foot is busy modulating the brakes and your leg cannot rest on the center console to brace you in place. Left hand turn trail braking without a racing harness/seat is more challenging because of that .

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

To update: I did try lock myself this time and I think I failed multiple times, again.
Now I think, probably because I needed to switch to R after all the locking trick, then the car released the seat belt at gear change.

I also moved my seat a few notch closer to steering wheel. I felt I go faster at that turn now, with better modulation on brake and steering angle. However, my butt was actually moving around now with going faster. After that turn, I had to push myself back to the seat a little bit, LOL. Guess have to practice locking more

Did you try to move your seat rearward, tighten the belt against your hips as tight as you can, tug sharply forward on the belt at shoulder height to get the tensioning reel to lock and then move the seat forward back into position? This works every time for me without having to resort to a CG lock. And BTW, putting it in reverse should do nothing to unlock the tensioning reel.

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

As to modulate gas after apex. Due to a run off last year, I am intentionally leaving that on the table, especially at tight turn that I can easily get greedy and send the rear end the wrong way. I personally feel trail braking is a bit safer to me because when shit goes wrong, releasing the pedal is somewhat natural to me. I probably will get to optimizing exiting after I improve other aspects and become a better driver.

Past the Apex, the throttle does need to be "modulated" in the sense that you should be gradually giving more throttle. If you nailed that that corner right, you should not be needing to lift, only giving more and more throttle .

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Quite simple. In general, your left foot is free to rest on the footrest with your leg against the door to help you brace yourself into the seat in a right hand turn. When you are braking while turning left, your right foot is busy modulating the brakes and your leg cannot rest on the center console to brace you in place. Left hand turn trail braking without a racing harness/seat is more challenging because of that .

Makes perfect sense!

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Did you try to move your seat rearward, tighten the belt against your hips as tight as you can, tug sharply forward on the belt at shoulder height to get the tensioning reel to lock and then move the seat forward back into position? This works every time for me without having to resort to a CG lock. And BTW, putting it in reverse should do nothing to unlock the tensioning reel.

I did. And it became loose somehow on track. I tried this again in parking lot, it works perfectly now. Probably not tight enough huh?

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Past the Apex, the throttle does need to be "modulated" in the sense that you should be gradually giving more throttle. If you nailed that that corner right, you should not be needing to lift, only giving more and more throttle .

I became greedier and greedier last time run off and wasn't prepared for counter steer once too much throttle was given. I guess it's just something I have to get over with it eventually.

[r4dr]

Is this the thumb at the Ridge?

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Is this the thumb at the Ridge?

Nope, Pacific raceways turn 2 and turn 8. But God I miss the Ridge!

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Nope, Pacific raceways turn 2 and turn 8. But God I miss the Ridge!

Ah. In turn 2, are you double apexing or entering out wide and turning in as you pass the end of the drag strip?

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Ah. In turn 2, are you double apexing or entering out wide and turning in as you pass the end of the drag strip?

Actually I was thinking another thread I started. This slow hairpin is turn 3B that I am absolutely horrible at.

A turn 2, I still use the textbook stay wide then turn in. Still not very good at my vision at turn 2 because apex is nowhere to find at brake zone and fixating on the "gate" has been a huge mistake I have been trying to fix.

Maybe doing double apex with ignoring the gate would give me better vision?

[r4dr]

Like I said in your other thread, I don't want to give you specific pointers without riding in your right seat and seeing how you drive in real life. That feels counterproductive for both of us, but let me explain my rationale for asking that question:

In that turn, the textbook line is the wide line, turning in at the end of the drag strip then late apexing at the apex cone out to track right. But when you do this fast, that's a long, high-G turn that has you hanging on for dear life for what feels like an eternity.

I asked if you were double apexing because that kind of splits it into two shorter, lower-G turns. This forces you on the inside of the school line which has the effect of *drastically* reducing the overall circumference of the hairpin. I've talked to people who have done the math and looked at data, and it's a pretty big reduction in the distance you have to go. I cannot recall actual numbers off the top of my head.

You can do the same thing in the carousel at the Ridge, which is similar in a lot of ways to T2 at Pacific.

With that said: don't read a forum post and try to do some crazy shit out there at 9/10ths. Just some food for thought if you have an instructor that you want to raise this possibility with.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Like I said in your other thread, I don't want to give you specific pointers without riding in your right seat and seeing how you drive in real life. That feels counterproductive for both of us, but let me explain my rationale for asking that question:

In that turn, the textbook line is the wide line, turning in at the end of the drag strip then late apexing at the apex cone out to track right. But when you do this fast, that's a long, high-G turn that has you hanging on for dear life for what feels like an eternity.

I asked if you were double apexing because that kind of splits it into two shorter, lower-G turns. This forces you on the inside of the school line which has the effect of *drastically* reducing the overall circumference of the hairpin. I've talked to people who have done the math and looked at data, and it's a pretty big reduction in the distance you have to go. I cannot recall actual numbers off the top of my head.

You can do the same thing in the carousel at the Ridge, which is similar in a lot of ways to T2 at Pacific.

With that said: don't read a forum post and try to do some crazy shit out there at 9/10ths. Just some food for thought if you have an instructor that you want to raise this possibility with.

Thanks a lot for advice. Really appreciate it.

My biggest problem on T2@Pacific (or anywhere) has always been vision. Fixating on the entry "gate" makes me brake more than enough and dead slow there.

My experience of improving my driving on all other turns have been fundamentally vision based. Once I have better vision, looking at apex while braking, I have so much more mental capacity that trying different things become much easier and safer. I was able to (almost) look at apex while braking at both 3a, 3b and 8 to better gauge my brake and steering, but for T2 with such high speed, hard braking, apex is nowhere to see, and the "gates" are so obvious to catch my eyes, I haven't been very successful. I know I will eventually get over it for sure, maybe just need more time to practice.

[r4dr]

Vision is one of the easiest things to work on -- you literally just force yourself to look ahead, and it becomes a habit.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by r4dr

Vision is one of the easiest things to work on -- you literally just force yourself to look ahead, and it becomes a habit.

Unfortunately it is hard to me
I just can’t somehow somewhere.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Try the CG-lock. It locks your seat-belt tight and keeps your butt in the place really tight. I run CG-lock + torso harness in Miata with crappy factory seats (because I am too cheap to spend 3K+ for race seat lol). But it surprisingly works well and help me do very well so far. For M4, you will have to be careful with it not to scratch nice leather seats though.

It's a word of difference having a hard mounted seat + 6pt, not to mention the extra safety from being able to use a full cage + hans....

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

It's a word of difference having a hard mounted seat + 6pt, not to mention the extra safety from being able to use a full cage + hans....

I totally hear you and I have been told about that. Looking at $3K+ for seats & installation, I am trying to save that money to use on M4 (RE-71Rs and camber plates and so on). I am able to get a lot out of this car without the race seats and still one more thing to try how far I can go before I get back to my M4. Once I get my desired lap time with it, I am planning to make a lap comparison video of the Miata with suspension and tires (~$8k) vs. factory spec M4 (~$80k) at my local track. It would be a fun thing to show how actually that little frustrating thing makes up huge on corners and only few seconds slower than the M4 with no mods. (You could make one too!)