BIMMERPOST BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 First Drive Review

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You have to make a lot of assumptions to come to the conclusion you did though

"In other words, two identical cars with identical power delivery, one has 600 pound ft torque the other has 400. Both have the same HP, would the torque really matter in speed, or just in feel?"

Those are my assumptions, period. All you need is right there.

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Funny, as I bought the DCT both because it is faster AND because it brings me more joy!

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

It's more complex...

Yes the higher torque car would win but mostly only due to getting off to a better start. However, in many metrics such as the 1/4 mile time the differences would be in the tenths of seconds and the trap speeds would be within 1 mph or so. Conversely the lower torque car would win things like a 60-130 race. Overall, the cars would be very close and pretty well down to a drivers race.

First of all it just isn't more complex. Rupes' note gave enough parameters to make it simple:

"In other words, two identical cars with identical power delivery, one has 600 pound ft torque the other has 400. Both have the same HP, would the torque really matter in speed, or just in feel?"

That's all you need. The cars are identical, right down to making the same power at the same rpm (i.e. - "identical power delivery").

Secondly, Rupe didn't ask anything about how big or small the difference in ET or speed would be, nor did he specify a distance. Why bring it up?

Third, the actual performance difference would vary based on gearing and where the torque peak fell in relation to the power peak. The closer the gearing, the smaller the difference, and vice versa.

Fourth, I didn't bother getting into off-the-line performance because there's no particular reason why a 600 foot-pound car will be as controllable as an otherwise identical 400 foot-pound car over the first 60 feet, and Rupe didn't specify a standing start quarter mile. He left it more open than that.

Fifth, there is no way the 400 foot pound car will win a race from 60-130 over the 600 foot pound car. Just no way. You're using that moderately crappy software again instead of using your noggin. The 600 foot pound car makes more power everywhere except at the power peak. Period.

Bruce

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First of all it just isn't more complex. Rupes' note gave enough parameters to make it simple:

"In other words, two identical cars with identical power delivery, one has 600 pound ft torque the other has 400. Both have the same HP, would the torque really matter in speed, or just in feel?"

That's all you need. The cars are identical, right down to making the same power at the same rpm (i.e. - "identical power delivery").

Secondly, Rupe didn't ask anything about how big or small the difference in ET or speed would be, nor did he specify a distance. Why bring it up?

Third, the actual performance difference would vary based on gearing and where the torque peak fell in relation to the power peak. The closer the gearing, the smaller the difference, and vice versa.

Fourth, I didn't bother getting into off-the-line performance because there's no particular reason why a 600 foot-pound car will be as controllable as an otherwise identical 400 foot-pound car over the first 60 feet, and Rupe didn't specify a standing start quarter mile. He left it more open than that.

Fifth, there is no way the 400 foot pound car will win a race from 60-130 over the 600 foot pound car. Just no way. You're using that moderately crappy software again instead of using your noggin. The 600 foot pound car makes more power everywhere except at the power peak. Period.

Bruce

you cant have same hp and different torque at the SAME rpm. its impossible. its math isnt it?

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Do you mean while the M4 is blowing exhaust in your grille? While shifting at around 6K?

no i mean when im exiting a corner faster due to getting on the gas earlier hence being in front of the m4

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

That's all you need. The cars are identical, right down to making the same power at the same rpm (i.e. - "identical power delivery").

Not to get in the middle of your's and swamp's discussion, but isn't the above statement impossible?

Hp, torque and RPM are "sort of" dependent of each other
Can you really have two engines that makes the same power at the same rpm, but has different torque numbers...??? (or rather vice versa)

I think I know the answer, just wanted to put the question out there for you

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

no i mean when im exiting a corner faster due to getting on the gas earlier hence being in front of the m4

Then why does BMW say the F8x is 15 seconds faster around the Nürburgring then

Here is Sport Auto "exiting corners", seems fairly ok to me

[seanq]

Chris Harris:
"If you haven't already ordered a new M3, stop what you're doing IMMEDIATELY and go and do so. It's ace."

[mithiral67]

whats the quoted time for the m4 on the ring?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

whats the quoted time for the m4 on the ring?

BMW doesn't publish Nürburgring lap times. But one of the reviews mentioned that BMW now had said the F8x was 15s faster than the E9x.

Sport Auto did a 8:05 (I believe) in the E9x.

So, 7:50s should be around where it's at

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by seanq

Chris Harris:
"If you haven't already ordered a new M3, stop what you're doing IMMEDIATELY and go and do so. It's ace."

fuck me, why did I order the cayman GTS

[seanq]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

fuck me, why did I order the cayman GTS

The GTS is an amazing choice still, probably a bit more focused.

[NYAWE60]

Originally Posted by jzmundy

My god at all the experts in this thread.

This

And . . .

Originally Posted by NYAWE60

DING DING DING, you just nailed it buddy. Couldn't have said it better myself. I too, love the S65 (A LOT, one of my top 5 favorite engines) but damn, the S65 nuthuggers need to get over themselves already. This is the same stupid argument that happened when the following cars evolved and in every case the successor was a superior vehicle in all regards, primarily performance:

E46 S54 I6 to E9X S65 V8
E90 N52 I6 to F30 N20 turbo 4
E6X M5/6 S85 to F10/F12 M5/6 V8 S63
R3X GTR RB26 I6 to R35 VR38 V6 TT

These are just some of many examples. Usually when huge automotive companies like BMW, MB, Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Toyota etc. develop cars, they ensure that the next generation car exceeds it's predecessor in every aspect.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by Boss330

So, 7:50s should be around where it's at

As the Cayman S is at 7:55, 7:50 seems reasonable for the GTS. Not bad being down 20% power.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Then why does BMW say the F8x is 15 seconds faster around the Nürburgring then

Here is Sport Auto "exiting corners", seems fairly ok to me

maybe same level driver to each other. im comparing the average goer.

i mean there are guys with ferraris and r8's and porsches out there that are slow as heck...im not saying im fast...just saying im not as slow as others LOL.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

"In other words, two identical cars with identical power delivery, one has 600 pound ft torque the other has 400. Both have the same HP, would the torque really matter in speed, or just in feel?"

Those are my assumptions, period. All you need is right there.

IMO, this is not sufficient to conclude that the car with 600lb-ft will be faster.

[alexey21]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Funny. I feel it is the other way around: a great chassis with a so-so engine and a compromised DCT.

IMO, the S65 defined the E9X; the chassis is what will define the F8X. But that overall sweet balance will remain.

From personal experience with the f10 M5, these turbo engines just make to much power for the chassis to handle. The DCT is great, although it could be better, as I do not like the exact jerkyness in sport plus, but once you get to a corner, the entire time the car is searching for grip grip grip... and all its getting is tire spin tire spin tire spin. The turn in with the M5, no matter what mode feels artificial and at points scary, as you know that car will make turn, but not exactly sure the car is listening to you. So, as I said in a different thread, BMW is trying to change up the turbo game with its own taste, but unfortunately, you can have a N.A motor at heart, and a turbo engine in the flesh. It does not work, it does not sound pretty, it does not anything. Want to make a real Turbo M car, go ahead, but make sure its not a splitting personalty, otherwise you are neither here or there.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

maybe same level driver to each other. im comparing the average goer.

i mean there are guys with ferraris and r8's and porsches out there that are slow as heck...im not saying im fast...just saying im not as slow as others LOL.

Ok, so you are talking about the driver. Not the car...

Because a race between a average driver in a E9x M3 vs a average driver in a F8x M3/4 will be a win for the F8x

Put a bad driver in the F8x and a good driver in the E9x, the E9x should win. Doesn't mean it's the better car that won, just the better driver

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Ok, so you are talking about the driver. Not the car...

Because a race between a average driver in a E9x M3 vs a average driver in a F8x M3/4 will be a win for the F8x

Put a bad driver in the F8x and a good driver in the E9x, the E9x should win. Doesn't mean it's the better car that won, just the better driver

yes exactly...lol...

but, i think the average driver will have a tougher time in the f80 no? turbo lag and I imagine the car to be sliding much more.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

yes exactly...lol...

but, i think the average driver will have a tougher time in the f80 no? turbo lag and I imagine the car to be sliding much more.

Good question.

Since it's able to lap quicker than the E9x, it's also able to carry more speed through corners, down the straights etc. Higher cornering loads and higher speeds means the limits have been pushed even further. And it might be more difficult for the average driver to extract 10/10ths (or 8/10ths for that matter) out of the F8x. But say that the average F8x driver is at 7/10ths of the car he would still quite likely still be faster than a E9x driven at 8/10ths

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Good question.

Since it's able to lap quicker than the E9x, it's also able to carry more speed through corners, down the straights etc. Higher cornering loads and higher speeds means the limits have been pushed even further. And it might be more difficult for the average driver to extract 10/10ths (or 8/10ths for that matter) out of the F8x. But say that the average F8x driver is at 7/10ths of the car he would still quite likely still be faster than a E9x driven at 8/10ths

we'll see about that!

[m3ct]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

fuck me, why did I order the cayman GTS

You can't go wrong either way, enjoy your GTS!