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      01-04-2017, 02:25 PM   #89
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Let's be honest here, the drivers aids in street legal cars today ie: MDM, DSC, ABS etc. are there to prevent idiots from killing themselves and I would also submit to provide some level of protection against litigation for the manufacturers. They are not there to enhance lap times in a car at the race track. As an example, having raced cars with both the standard ABS and Motorsport ABS there is no comparison between the two.

I just spent 2.5 days at Sebring in the GTS, I can tell you the car is at least two seconds a lap faster with these aids turned off versus leaving them on. Also, the car does have some inherent understeer built into the car in the street setting. Admittedly, this is the only setting I drove the car in, but I would bet the same is true even in the race setting when pushing the car hard. Another method manufacturers use to prevent idiots from killing themselves.

Also, simply lowering the car to the race setting will provide for faster lap times, but to ultimately get the most out of the car regardless of which tires are used, the car needs to be properly corner balanced and aligned. Only then can you begin the testing (tire temps, toe, camber, etc.) necessary to find the proper setup for the car at that specific track. All this being said, at a minimum the car definitely needs camber plates in the front to maximize the GTS's capabilities. Time permitting I hope to get there with my GTS.

Last edited by redrumm3; 01-04-2017 at 03:11 PM.. Reason: typo
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      01-04-2017, 02:34 PM   #90
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This is true and this is the direction that this thread was going


Quote:
Originally Posted by redrumm3 View Post
Let's be honest here, the drivers aids in street legal cars today ie: MDM, DSC, ABS etc. are there to prevent idiots from killing themselves and I would also submit to provide some level of protection against litigation for the manufacturers. They are not there to enhance lap times in a car at the race track. As an example, having raced cars with both the standard ABS and Motorsport ABS there is no comparison between the two.

I just spent 2.5 days at Sebring in the GTS, I can tell you the car is at least two seconds a lap faster with these aids turned off versus leaving them on. Also, the car does have some inherent understeer built into the car in the street setting. Admittedly, this is the only setting I drove the car in, but I would bet the same is true even in the race setting when pushing the car hard. Another method manufacturers use to prevent idiots from killing themselves.

Also, simply lowering the car to the race setting will provide for faster lap times, but to ultimately get the most out of the car regardless of which tires are used, the car needs to properly corner balanced and aligned. Only then can you begin the testing (tire temps, toe, camber, etc.) necessary to find the proper setup for the car at that specific track. All this being said, at a minimum the car definitely needs camber plates in the front to maximize the GTS's capabilities. Time permitting I hope to get there with my GTS.
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      01-04-2017, 02:36 PM   #91
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Agree on many cars its Big difference if solid driver lap. But then agan as I mentioned Porsche systems are overal very small diff systems on off.

Also new Amg Gt-s sport auto hardly did any different Times in supertest on ring.



Whats also is intresting is its a genral thing that most driver Will see them selfe as the fast driver hence they think modern porsch esc( and amg as mentioned Will slow them down. That not the case on most driver in them cars as those system are so god. And the average driver are often not at that level they think they are.

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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't agree with this general statement. Depending on manufacturers, even "sport" DSC/ESP systems can be quite intrusive and will significantly slow down a good driver. BMW DSC systems are notoriously over intrusive for performance driving. See AMS article below that compares lap times between full DSC/ESP, "Sport" DSC/ESP and Fully-off for an M4 and a C63S driven by a pro-driver (Uwe Sener). M4 was over a second faster with DSC Off vs MDM.

Note: I am not commenting specifically about the GTS' MDM/DSC system here, since I have no experience with it.
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      01-04-2017, 02:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4 View Post
And the average driver are often not at that level they think they are.
Agreed
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      01-04-2017, 02:43 PM   #93
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I look forward to test it my selfe. As of now I dont know. All I know I did lap my Porsche GT4 plenty for 1.5years. That ESC system was so god you hardly feel it at all! I Will show you some data to make it clear. In One lap I drive ESC on, I feel nothing but data show I trigger ESC 6 Times on the 3.1km lap. Now I drive with ESC fully off, its only a few tenth faster lap. I was surprised how little it did interfere. GTS I dont know as had not driven it a lot in dry.

Fun thing in GT4 you got all data you can think of, like steering angle, like throthle position, oversteer or understeer is show, or where on track you accually trigger ESC and how it effect lap time. Well GTS also got this data transfer to get car data out. But I dont think it show this much like Porsche?

Here is 2 laps I drive With My GT4. The fastest lap is ESC of, the light green line is With out trigger/peak that show ESC is 100% off! The slover lap is ESC on, thats dark green line and there you accually see how many Times I trigger ESC in the lap(6times) Still I dont feel it! I got plenty of friend who drive GT4, most tell me they do not trigger ESC:-), I dont belive this is tru, they do but you cant really feel it, thats how god it is. They dont know how the get this data out, hence the dont know what accually happen.


But data show it! I can also press play icon to get to the film to show exactly where I trigger ESC on track. Just put data cusor on the trigger point. Point Is, it do not not stopp me much this ESC in GT4. Its on a whole other level this system than My old e46 CSL. GTS is way better also vs that old CSL system.

Also we can see My GT4 understeer like a pig, as yellow downward peaks is every place I understeer. We see I dont suffer from oversteer, as oversteer is shown in upwards yellow peak.

I cant say more than that as I have not been able to fully test GTS on track yet.

Still thing are better these days, just see new amg gt-R, it got real amg GT3 race car traction controll(was it 8 levels?) in that street car. GTS is no way even close to that, but I guess in the same way M did tune GTS ABS over vanila M4, I guess also ESC would be more to track work in same way as ABS is programmed in GTS. What do you guys think, it could not be same ESC programing in GTS like M4? GTS Abs is not same as vanila M4 anyway. Different programing for heavy track work.



[IMG][/IMG]






Quote:
Originally Posted by redrumm3 View Post
Let's be honest here, the drivers aids in street legal cars today ie: MDM, DSC, ABS etc. are there to prevent idiots from killing themselves and I would also submit to provide some level of protection against litigation for the manufacturers. They are not there to enhance lap times in a car at the race track. As an example, having raced cars with both the standard ABS and Motorsport ABS there is no comparison between the two.

I just spent 2.5 days at Sebring in the GTS, I can tell you the car is at least two seconds a lap faster with these aids turned off versus leaving them on. Also, the car does have some inherent understeer built into the car in the street setting. Admittedly, this is the only setting I drove the car in, but I would bet the same is true even in the race setting when pushing the car hard. Another method manufacturers use to prevent idiots from killing themselves.

Also, simply lowering the car to the race setting will provide for faster lap times, but to ultimately get the most out of the car regardless of which tires are used, the car needs to properly corner balanced and aligned. Only then can you begin the testing (tire temps, toe, camber, etc.) necessary to find the proper setup for the car at that specific track. All this being said, at a minimum the car definitely needs camber plates in the front to maximize the GTS's capabilities. Time permitting I hope to get there with my GTS.

Last edited by Captain Unknown GT4; 01-04-2017 at 04:00 PM..
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      01-04-2017, 02:48 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4 View Post
And the average driver are often not at that level they think they are.
I agree with that statement.
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      01-04-2017, 03:29 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4 View Post
Agree on many cars its Big difference if solid driver lap. But then agan as I mentioned Porsche systems are overal very small diff systems on off.

Also new Amg Gt-s sport auto hardly did any different Times in supertest on ring.



Whats also is intresting is its a genral thing that most driver Will see them selfe as the fast driver hence they think modern porsch esc( and amg as mentioned Will slow them down. That not the case on most driver in them cars as those system are so god. And the average driver are often not at that level they think they are.
All Porsche are not created equal I guess. PTV on a 991 GT3 is helping in most cornering situation. I don't like it. I only like ABS on. Anything else 'on' is just not as fun and challenging as everything off.
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      01-04-2017, 03:35 PM   #96
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"ABS"olutely

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRakete View Post
All Porsche are not created equal I guess. PTV on a 991 GT3 is helping in most cornering situation. I don't like it. I only like ABS on. Anything else 'on' is just not as fun and challenging as everything off.
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      01-04-2017, 04:11 PM   #97
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Edit, it seems this is wet lap. That do change things.. I could make a translate.

So, M4 seems to have a decent esp system then? I guess GTS is still better...

Uve S is not as fast as Christian G, but still when in same cars he is what I seen a few tenths slower.
Still this test show ESC is damn god in M4 at short hockenheim.

Based on this, and also My own experience of how god ESC systems is in modern Porsches I find I hard to belive ESP system I GTS is all bad.


Last edited by Captain Unknown GT4; 01-04-2017 at 04:36 PM..
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      01-04-2017, 04:21 PM   #98
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Here on the other hand in the Nissan its 1 sec diff. Then again on most average joes laps it would maybee not slow them down. Could be the other way around that it accually make many average joes faster and save them from the Big off in to armcro.

10 years ago I would cut all ESC on all cars. Instant, today I first test if the accually slow me down first. Thats not 100% they Will do that anymore, depending on car and driver. But its not like 10 years ago, thats for sure.

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      01-04-2017, 04:25 PM   #99
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Has anyone tested any tires lately?

How about alignment? Anyone else running camber plates? A must IMO if you are tracking the car.
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      01-04-2017, 04:33 PM   #100
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I am going to get a square setup and try R888r this spring. GC plates are on the way. I got about 300 minutes of track time on the PSC2. Felt great but like you said it was under extreme braking that I found the limit. I have CCB's on my M4 as well but the GTS has a little something extra there I think.


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Originally Posted by MRakete View Post
Has anyone tested any tires lately?

How about alignment? Anyone else running camber plates? A must IMO if you are tracking the car.
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      01-04-2017, 04:35 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCP View Post
I am going to get a square setup and try R888r this spring. GC plates are on the way. I got about 300 minutes of track time on the PSC2. Felt great but like you said it was under extreme braking that I found the limit. I have CCB's on my M4 as well but the GTS has a little something extra there I think.
So 19's? What size are you thinking and what wheels... I was thinking we should try to set up a group buy with Forgeline...
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      01-04-2017, 04:47 PM   #102
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For sure 19. I am going to try a fitment of my rear 19 from my M4 to the front of GTS and check clearance. It may be a custom order will be needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRakete View Post
So 19's? What size are you thinking and what wheels... I was thinking we should try to set up a group buy with Forgeline...
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      01-04-2017, 04:50 PM   #103
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I could for sure see My selfe With camber plates as well. Need to check if tom schirmer got some kit thats fairly ok in price.
Also should be intresting to test a full down drop. As of now I just drop to bmw m stock low tracksetting as most did. By removing the clips. But as I understand we can get her lower down if only slightly.
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      01-04-2017, 04:59 PM   #104
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Also I drove pirellis R compound on GT4. Still My car was stock and much more understeery than GTS, the pirellis was slightly faster than cup2.(what ever people say, I could only gain a few tenths faster Times on the pirellis vs cup2 (0.3 to 0.6 sec on a 3.1 km track.)
Wet gripp is much worse on pirellis vs cup2. Also pirellis is more senitive to curbs and need a slow inital take care lap then go. I feel cup 2 tire is not that senitive to get small cuts and thing from curbs.

But the gain Will be more if propper camber setting for sure.
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      05-05-2017, 11:14 AM   #105
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trofeo

anyone try 265/35/19 305/30/20 troveo on stock wheel
also does anyone know how much camber you can get on stock setup lowered to the c clip removed? fronts will get cooked in a few hard laps with pressure above 33 psi thats for sure
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      05-05-2017, 06:23 PM   #106
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Just ordered two sets of Ground Control front camber plates from Trevor @ GC.

One for me, one for VCP.

That should dial in some well deserved negativity into the GTS (unlike the negativity of the hack car writer reviews )
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      05-05-2017, 08:23 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92MMM View Post
anyone try 265/35/19 305/30/20 troveo on stock wheel
also does anyone know how much camber you can get on stock setup lowered to the c clip removed? fronts will get cooked in a few hard laps with pressure above 33 psi thats for sure
I think I may be the only one who measured it in both settings, the answer is, the camber barely changes. It is right around -2 in both settings (though I had a slight asymmetry right to left). Camber plates are definitely the way to go if you drive on a camber heavy track and do not want to tear up the outer shoulder. In Europe, they have more free flowing, high speed tracks so it is not as big of a deal. In the tight bull rings around here though, -3 (or more) is probably a must up front.
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      05-05-2017, 08:32 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarksM View Post
My reason for the reverse stagger is the tire sizes and the rims that were available quickly. I have a set of 18" CCW wheels that I used on my M4, but they will not fit the front brakes, but work well over the rears.
The chart lists the tires avail and the Black is what I was using on my M4.
The 295/19 is what I choose for the GTS fronts along with the 315/18 rears. The (minor) rub that I talked about was at the 3 o'clock position on the rear of the front tires when the wheel was turned 3/4 full lock in the paddock.
I can not believe how fast this thing is with just the tire change and full aero (as minor as it is). Easy 5-10 mph faster than the M4 (which had camber plates and the big tires) on every corner at Buttonwillow. As I was trying to find the edges, it just kept going faster and faster through the weekend. I have not had a chance to drop the car to the track settings yet. I might pick up some front rubbing without camber plates and a better offset in front. The rears appear to have miles of room.
Update please! What tire setup are people running now? Track season has started. Inquiring minds want to know!
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      05-05-2017, 11:56 PM   #109
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Someone should try to drop It as low as It can. That would give It slightly more camber I guess. As far as I know most people go with BMW 2 settings? Street or track(removing c clip)

Anyway camber plates will for sure give us longer use of tire, and in the end save us dollars on tire. Looking forward to you guys getting this installed and give us feedback👍🏻
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      05-09-2017, 10:09 AM   #110
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Has anyone found tires that work better for track use with the stock suspension and camber setup? Michelins definitely melt on the outer edge.
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