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      08-03-2017, 12:54 PM   #1
scash62
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Bought former Performance Center F80 - Issues remain after BMW replaced $25k in parts

In Summary: BMW spent over $25,000 dollars replacing major read components to resolve the vibration issues. Replaced transmission, mounts, differential, one axle.Vehicle in shop 34 days over multiple occasions.The dealership service manager and general manager contact me and tell me that they would prefer to move me into a new M3 vs. continue to repair my vehicle and that he has done this before and should not take long to work out the details. I agreed and provide the specs of my vehicle to the general manager.

One week later, the general manager completely changes directions and tells me that BMW North America has determined that this is considered NORMAL and will not support any other repairs.

Interesting Facts that BMW North America disputes and uses as their official response to deny my complaint: (I can prove):
1-BMW North America never sent a regional engineer to look at the vehicle as promised on two separate occasions.

2-This issue occurs in multiple gears at the exact same speed and not limited to only high gear as BMW NA tried to claim in their official response.

3-When I was offered a similar vehicle to drive in place of a regional engineer inspection. I drove the other M3 and it DID NOT have any of the vibration issues that my car currently exhibits. I was very clear to the foreman and the service manager that same day that the other vehicle does NOT vibrate as my vehicle does.


BMW NA - Used the points above as their official response to BB and DOJ. I had specific conversations about all three and it is amazing to me that BMW NA continues to flat our LIE about the facts!!.

BMW North America is now stating the vibration is considered NORMAL? Really after all that was in service for over 34 days, $25,000 in repair costs due to the exact same issue and now its normal????

I have a hard time accepting this. If they would have said it was normal the very first time I reported the issue, it would make sense, but after the head BMW service said it was a major issue before and now it is not, is crazy!

I actually had several people state that they had the exact same issue and it finally ended up being the DriveShaft and its connectors. This was my last recommendation to the dealership in hopes resolve the issue and that is when he said no they would not continue any additional repairs and would prefer to move me into another vehicle.

I have had all of the parts on both sides of the drive shaft replaced and the only thing remaining is a $2,000 part that will cost less than $500 to install. Why would you rather lie about facts to the public vs. just spend another $2500 and resolve the issue and keep a long loyal BMW customer happy?

BMW Shady Business Practices - Be Ware!!!

BBB NJ Complaint - BMW said that my vehicle was inspected by a regional engineer and determined there are no issues. This is a false statement because I tried to meet with a regional engineer on several occasions but they did not show up.

https://bluecomplaints.bbb.org/Manager.aspx?m=24097400

** Story Details Below **
I just purchased a 2016 F80 DCT BMW with 5,000 miles and during the paperwork signing I found out that it was used at the performance center which did make me hesitate but I had signed everything else, paid in full for the vehicle and trusted. (NOTE: I did not know the vehicle as driven at a performance center until I was 99% complete with signing the paperwork and slid this disclosure in on me. (somewhat shady operations) By that point I was committed and trusted that Warranty would cover me if I had any issues) I also saw an issue with noise from rear, and they replaced a wheel bearing.

While driving the car home from the day I purchased the car I noticed a vibration when I would accelerate, Usually starts around 64MPH and stops above 74MPH, almost like the vibration that you feel when the lane change notification feels like when you drift out of lane.


Update 5/4/17: As I was driving home yesterday, I tested mine over and over and it seems to stop vibrating at 75MPH and I happen to have a radar detector on the dash and I noticed when I did feel the vibration that the radar detector also rattled which leads me to think it is something up front other than just the steering wheel area, ?motor mounts?

Update 6/2/17 - Took 2016 M3 into service Charlotte NC BMW Northlake, got the service foreman to drive so that he could feel vibration.
He agreed that it does not feel normal and definitely noticed a vibration between speeds of 65 and 72 and did not matter what gear you are in. The key is to slowly accelerate because you will quickly pass 72mph when accelerating hard


He also mentioned that he had something similar a year prior and the resolution was to replace the transmission and once they replaced the transmission, the issue was solved.

(Left vehicle with BMW 6/2/17 - 6/26/17 24 days)

6/6/17 Update from BMW dealership Charlotte NC
As I mentioned, the foreman (BMW Northlake) is very good and he called me directly this afternoon to tell me that they are replacing my transmission.

Good or bad news, don't know yet, but he called me today and said that they did not want to try everything else when he believes the issue is in the transmission, and since they had it on a stand, and used a stethoscope and found that there is significant vibration and noise coming from the transmission at 3000 rpm.

After sending data to BMW engineers, they agreed with the replacement and are replacing my transmission as soon as the new one arrives.

I am fortunate that the shop foreman here is really good and will work until he resolves the issue. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

Update 6/9/16 Transmission Replaced
Received a call from the BMW technician today and he said that the new transmission did not solve the problem. He also said that the vibration is really bad in the back of the vehicle under hard acceleration and even more than can be felt in the steering wheel.

He now said he was going to start with replacing parts one side at a time, left axle, bearings etc. HERE WE GO DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE

UPDATE 6/10/17 Replacing differential changed approach
New differential is on its way and should be here late next week. Hopefully that is where the problem is.

UPDATE 6/10/17 Replaced differential Mounts - not resolved

UPDATE 6/16/17 After replaced differential and foreman believes that there may be an issue with the left axle not having issues and they are now in process of replacing the axle. Will see once the axle is installed.

UPDATE 6/22/17 Replaced Axle - Said it was fixed

UPDATE 6/26/17 - NOT FIXED Dealership said it was resolved so I picked up my vehicle and drove home. Though it was still there but there was so much traffic that I really could not verify. I had to travel and on my way to and from the airport I had a chance to drive between 63 - 73 and the problem still exists. It is very clear that there is vibration under acceleration at that speed and it goes away by 74mph. This is getting frustrating that BMW has tried so much and the problem still exists. I am beginning to wonder if they really know what is going on and do they really care?


Update 7/5/17 - Frustrated BMW Corp Ignoring Problem

Dealership said that they would have a regional engineer come into town next week and will I bring it in to let him drive and review the case.

When I went to the dealership, there was no regional engineer and no mention about why he was not there. It was clear to me that they were dismissing my complaint and asked me to drive an employees 2016 M3 to see if I feel the same thing. Well I did and there was no vibration at any speed under any acceleration. It was obvious that they were trying hard to dismiss that there is still an issue.

I had to request my foreman drive my car again to see what I was talking about. After driving he did feel what I was talking about and he said that it is less than it was but there is still some vibration. The first time they did not acknowledge any vibration until I had the foreman drive the car with me.

They suggested that I accept it because it will be impossible to find and I should drive and monitor and if it gets worse to bring it in because they will take care of me. He also said that it will likely be very difficult to find and may never find and resolve the issue.The issue still exists and 4 weeks ago when this exact vibration was reported, they admitted that there was a significant problem and now the vibration is occurring in the exact same scenario when it was a major issue and now (same scenario) I am supposed to believe the vibration is NOW NORMAL?

Update 7/7/17 - Frustrated BMW Corp Ignoring Problem
(Left vehicle with BMW 7/7/17 - 7/17/17 10 days)
I leave my vehicle with BMW so that they can have a regional engineer review my vehicle.


Again no regional engineer reviewed my vehicle but I did receive a call from the service manager who stated that he and the general manager have discussed that they would prefer to move me into a new vehicle vs. continuing to repair this one.

7/14/17 BMW Dealership Manager BMW Northlake NC - emailed that he would like to move me into a new vehicle. Chris.Blocker@HendrickAuto.com - contacted me stating that they preferred to move me into a new vehicle vs. continuing to determine the issue with my existing vehicle.

2 days later the Dealership manager requested my vehicle specs so that he could work out getting me into a new vehicle that matches the vehicle that I currently have. I shared the information and he assured me that he has done this before and expects to have it worked out within a week or so.

4 Days Later Friday 7/20/17 - Chris.Blocker@HendrickAuto.com Dealership Mgr. emailed me to say he is BMW Corp is NO-LONGER CONSIDERING THIS AS ABNORMAL and would only consider an extended warranty.

I know that it is not the local dealerships problem because they depend on BMWNA to admit issues and provide support to resolve these issues. When they do not receive this support, they are left with the unhappy customer.

IF BMW WOULD HAVE TOLD ME WHEN I FIRST REPORTED THE ISSUE, THAT IT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL, I WOULD HAVE HAD DIFFICULTY BELIEVING BUT WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED.

The fact is this:
6 weeks ago BMW head foreman determined that the vibration was not normal and much worse than I imagined because I could only feel the vibration in the steering wheel. They replaced over $25,000 in parts 30% of vehicle value. Now I feel the same thing and can prove it, but BMW wants to say it is normal.

There is no vibration at any other speeds when accelerating, I can accelerate from 50 - 60mph nothing, accelerate between 75 and 85mph and no vibration. How can this be normal for a 90,000 dollar vehicle.[/color]

7/17/17 I talked with BMW NA customer relations case manager Christopher.Antal@bmwnaext.com and he said that BMWNA is also not willing to assist and that the issue is considered normal. REALLY! It WAS NOT NORMAL LAST MONTH and REPLACED over $25,000 on MAJOR COMPONENTS BUT NOW IS IS NORMAL????? This is about money and BMW does not want to admit they have a bad vehicle and they don't know how to resolve it. "Lets call it normal so we don't have to fix it"

I am getting very frustrated losing trust with BMW.

******** Pictures Below ********
Attached below are pictures from a vibration app that uses the phone accelerometer to detect vibration. This captured the vibration at the steering wheel beginning at 60 mph, notice the flat low vibration until 64 and the vibration increases and continues thru 73 mph when the vibration drops down up to 75mph.

The second graph is the same scenario but starting acceleration at 75mph thru 85mph. Vibration is not there and chart is flat, I have exact flat no version at speeds 45mph to 65mph.





***Reference Informatino ***

Email from Mr. Chris Blocker 7/20/17
Based off a couple conversations I’ve had this is where we stand.

Going into another car isnt going to be an option that receives financial assistance from BMW. The primary reason is that you will most likely experience what you currently are experiencing in your car to some degree in another newer M car. There is no belief on their part or ours that it is going to cause or contribute to future issues and they are willing to back up that assertion that there is nothing defective or no damage is being done by providing a Platinum level of extended warranty coverage on your current M3 at no charge. The term and mileage coverage would be dependent on what makes the most sense based off the mileage you drive. That is something we would need to sit down together and figure out.

I believe wholeheartedly Scott that you are absolutely feeling something and we feel it too. I don’t debate or argue that. Where there is a disconnect is the fact that you consider it a problem and BMW is more so considering it a characteristic that is happening currently on a number of cars. Now that I better understand what we’re referring to, I just had a client I’ve helped for a long time bring his M4 into the store last week and I’m almost certain what he mentioned is the exact same thing you are experiencing. We checked the car, the suspension, the steering, and test drove it and found nothing to be concerned about. He said it only lasted for a second and as long as it was safe it didn’t really bother him and that is where the challenge lies. Everyone is different in how they interpret and how intensely they are impacted by any particular issue. You, like many of our clients, are very focused on what something is and why it happens. It’s always a less than perfect explanation for us to say there is nothing we see or can find wrong combined with BMW is saying it is just a “normal” or “characteristic” attribute that happens on a number of cars. That happening in this case, after what you’ve been through on this car, really isn’t a good match at all because I know you’re really tuned in to it.

Today I have a pretty full day but tomorrow is more open if you’d like to get together and talk about this. I don’t want to come across like I’m uninterested or unwilling to talk about this or listen to your concerns relative to what I’ve sent here and what is being offered. I think the worst outcome would be going through the whole process of another car that you would have some financial commitment to as well, and it does the same thing. Having the piece of mind that if anything ever comes from this issue you’ll have coverage is def worth something but how much it is worth to you is what matters.

Let me know your thoughts on getting together tomorrow or Saturday and how you would like to proceed from here.

Thanks,

Chris

***Previous Email from BMW Northlake ***

Blocker, Chris
Jul 17
to Scott Cash

Scott,

Some answers for you:

• I would like to have some answers for you this week. I got the email you sent me yesterday just a little while ago and will track down that car to use as my example car. I need an idea of what a swap looks like and what we need from BMW to make it work. Going back and forth with our market team and New Jersey and getting an approval can take weeks, but I have done this a few times from being a service manager before and am confident we can get it done in a week, or very close.

• You are welcome to your car at any time. There isn’t anything that would keep me from driving the car and our service manager and shop foreman agree.

• We prob aren’t going to perform any more parts replacements on the car because there isn’t a defect with any of the components. What you’re feeling is going to be there on this car unless a change in your driving style potentially changes the trans behavior, but even then, applying light throttle in 6th or 7th gear at 1900-2100 RPM is going to result in some very minor feeling of the car pulling itself out of that low RPM in such a high gear.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by scash62; 08-28-2017 at 05:29 PM.. Reason: add picture
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      08-03-2017, 01:11 PM   #2
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Sorry to hear of your issues. Sounds like a major pain in the ass. Would you mind sharing what you paid for this vehicle, since I'm assuming it was probably somewhat below market value?
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      08-03-2017, 01:20 PM   #3
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Did they replace one axle or both? Typically on FWD cars when you have vibration under acceleration you have a bad CV joint in one or both axles. Also could be the driveshaft... Did they even bother balancing the wheels/tires?

This sucks. Keep us posted!
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      08-03-2017, 02:40 PM   #4
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I don't know if this would help any. I had the same issue with my Lexus is300 a few years back. Vibration in the steering wheel from 55-75 mph. Didn't matter which gear I was in. Turned out that one of my wheels became "unbalanced". They balanced all of the wheels again and the vibration went away.

I hope you are able to get your issue resolved!
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      08-03-2017, 02:44 PM   #5
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Good point. Check the roundness of your rims.
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      08-03-2017, 03:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by scash62 View Post
I just purchased a 2016 F80 DCT BMW with 5,000 miles and it was used at the performance center so I know it was driven hard.
yeah about that...
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      08-03-2017, 04:30 PM   #7
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They did all of this and I bet it is and Unbalanced and or bent wheel/ bad tire.
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      08-03-2017, 05:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
I just purchased a 2016 F80 DCT BMW with 5,000 miles and it was used at the performance center so I know it was driven hard.
There's your problem right there. I would probably not expect a minty car knowing I bought one that was used and abused by the performance center.

I would just take that extended warranty and drive the car.
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      08-03-2017, 06:48 PM   #9
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this is still a warranty issue. I would take it to another dealership and see if they can diagnose the issue, at the least get the techs to start talking to each other. Get them some lunch, do something to grease the discussion.

Obviously, get your wheels balanced and checked as others have said to eliminate this simple possible cause.
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      08-03-2017, 07:04 PM   #10
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When it comes to vibration first thing to check is the tires and wheels.
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      08-03-2017, 07:33 PM   #11
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+1 on checking wheels and tires for balance

Sorry to hear the troubles OP. Extended warranty sounds good to me
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      08-03-2017, 08:55 PM   #12
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LEMON LAW!!!!!!!

Leave BMW out of it. Google lemon law attorneys in your state and be done with it.
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      08-04-2017, 01:30 AM   #13
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I have the very same issue plus buuzing and vibrating noise around 115 - 135 km/h, steering wheel vibration - they changed all parts like in Your car except transmission. After 14 months and 16 visit in service they told me it is normal and will no longer try to fix the car. I'm form Poland and no Lemon law - I stuck with broken car. Last BMW ever... I do not want to have to deal with this company ever again

And guys - its not about wheel balancing at all
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      08-04-2017, 03:38 AM   #14
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Has anyone try to software tune, one of my friend has the similiar issue after all think he did, finally he did software tune. He did bm3 (anyother can try) and all vibration is gone. These car all of electronics so I think it is worth to give it a try.
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      08-04-2017, 04:40 AM   #15
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I feel for you OP, I would think (being an engineer) the problem is wheel tyre related, possibly hub bearings, first get those wheels tested for buckling and balance. Good luck.
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      08-04-2017, 05:16 AM   #16
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So if you are on the highway with cruise control on anywhere from 64-74 Mph, you get a major vibration? Have you test driven more than 1 new cars under the same conditions and roads and they don't have the problem? If it's not the rims or wheels, either lemon law it or sell it. Hopefully BMW will end up buying it back either voluntarily or involuntarily. Lesson learned - don't buy an M School car unless maybe heavily discounted to compensate for likely many service visits down the road. I actually started a thread in the buying forum which discusses used M School cars that Bmw NA sell to the public for 'normal' used 5-7k mile prices. Ludicrous! Please keep us posted.

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      08-04-2017, 10:49 AM   #17
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Sorry at work and don't have the time to read carefully but if you have a consistent vibration at a certain MPH range regardless of gear then my first thought would be the driveshaft, which I assume has already been replaced or inspected for balance...
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      08-05-2017, 07:50 PM   #18
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Sorry at work and don't have the time to read carefully but if you have a consistent vibration at a certain MPH range regardless of gear then my first thought would be the driveshaft, which I assume has already been replaced or inspected for balance...
The driveshaft was my last recommendation and they did not want to put more time and money into trying to resolve. That is about the only thing they have not replaced and makes sense to me.

BMW North America - has formally said that this is considered normal and they were closing my case. Really, vibration only at a certain speed under load and once led them to replace transmission, mounts, differential, 1 axle, and now the vibration is less than it once was, it still exists at the exact same place which means there is still something going on.
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      08-05-2017, 08:08 PM   #19
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So if you are on the highway with cruise control on anywhere from 64-74 Mph, you get a major vibration? Have you test driven more than 1 new cars under the same conditions and roads and they don't have the problem? If it's not the rims or wheels, either lemon law it or sell it. Hopefully BMW will end up buying it back either voluntarily or involuntarily. Lesson learned - don't buy an M School car unless maybe heavily discounted to compensate for likely many service visits down the road. I actually started a thread in the buying forum which discusses used M School cars that Bmw NA sell to the public for 'normal' used 5-7k mile prices. Ludicrous! Please keep us posted.
Actually have to accelerate slightly and it is clear every time. You can accelerate hard and it is till very clear but obviously passes very fast. Yes they threw the disclosure about the performance center at the very last minute and I was so far into the paper work, I hoped that warranty would cover and I was paying cash.

Now that BMW North America had to pay over $25,000 and still did not resolve, the are now claiming to have inspected my vehicle and determined that there are no issues. My vehicle was never inspected by a regional engineer because I went to the local dealership to meet the regional engineer but they did not show up.

Last edited by scash62; 08-24-2017 at 02:23 PM..
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      08-05-2017, 08:10 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jackob View Post
Sorry at work and don't have the time to read carefully but if you have a consistent vibration at a certain MPH range regardless of gear then my first thought would be the driveshaft, which I assume has already been replaced or inspected for balance...
It has to be under some acceleration to occur and the harder you accelerate the more vibration but passes quickly once you pass 74mph.
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      08-05-2017, 08:21 PM   #21
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LEMON LAW!!!!!!!

Leave BMW out of it. Google lemon law attorneys in your state and be done with it.
NC Lemon Law:
LEMON LAW
The North Carolina Lemon Law, also known as the New Motor Vehicles Warranties Act (N.C.G.S. 20-351), applies to new passenger cars, pick-up trucks, motorcycles and most vans bought in North Carolina. It requires manufacturers to repair defects that affect the use, value, or safety of a new motor vehicle within the first 24 months or 24,000 miles (whichever comes first).

Your car may be covered by the Lemon Law if all of the following have happened:
• The problem occurs in some part of the vehicle that is covered by the manufacturer's warranty and you are within the warranty period. It does not need to be something that keeps you from being able to drive the car. For example, faulty air conditioning or peeling paint could be considered defects under the Lemon Law.
• You tell the manufacturer about the problem in writing and give them a reasonable period, but not more than 15 days, to fix it. YES About 32 days in service
• The manufacturer makes “a reasonable number of attempts” to fix the vehicle. This means that the car has been repaired for the same problem four or more times, or that it has been out of service a cumulative total of 20 or more business days during a 12 month period of the warranty.
• The manufacturers’ efforts to fix the vehicle fail. Under the law, they must either replace your car or buy it back. You get to decide between a comparable new car and a refund. Unable to fix but now decided that it is normal now that they have spent 25k replacing parts.

It is a good idea to read your warranty to find out what kind of remedies your manufacturer might offer outside of the Lemon Law.

Your rights under the Lemon Law:
If the manufacturer hasn’t fixed your car after a reasonable number of attempts, you are entitled to choose a comparable new replacement vehicle, or a refund. The law does not spell out what a comparable new replacement vehicle is, though it would most likely be an identical make and model.
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      08-05-2017, 08:42 PM   #22
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Sorry for your troubles. I wish I could have posted this thread earlier for you. Are you sure it's not the rims or wheels?

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1403326

I would bring up the lemon law with United. Let us know how this turns out.
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