Drivetribe: BMW M3 ZCP vs Giulia QV vs C63 S Multi-Part Comparison

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

They're using the ZF8 in the new M5 because it's smoother and more optimally geared. Without doing any research, I'd say VERY few people track their M5s. Therefore, a faster shifting DCT won't be needed nor very beneficial for street usage. I had the ZF8 in my previous 435. I considered it quick only while upshifting in auto mode WOT. Manual, as well as auto gear changes were slow as molasses compared to the M-DCT.

I had posted this before on more than one occasion, but it is because there are no longitudinal mounted dct's in the market that can handle any more torque.
BMS site for the M5:
"For those running a DCT transmission we've found the factory clutch packs are only good for around 640whp before they start slipping. If you are planning for more power than this plan to upgrade to Dodson clutch packs sooner or later"

Getrag, the maker of our DCT's, makes DCT's for Ferrari as well. BMW is switching to ZF because the cost of producing a brand new DCT that can be warrantied for long term and driven smoothly is expensive and production cars cannot simply install clutch packs to remedy the problem.

As far as the ZF, I have a X5M and driven many many other ZF's on bmw's including owning a regular x5 for 3 years with the 8 speed. The zf on the x5m is completely re-programmed and the shift speeds are as fast if not faster than the dct on 1 gear shifts up or down shifts.

The problem with the zf is multi gear down shifts, which it may not be consistent. Also, with even single gear down shifts in S3, the shift may sometimes be very harsh, seems like the gear is just dropped.

Another problem is throttle modulation, the DCT snaps gears quickly, the
ZF will modulate the throttle very momentarily during gear changes especially during >7/10's driving. The gears will shift quickly, but the driving experience suffers, car seems to lag very very briefly during a shift, does not snap into gear like a manual or dct would.

The most important thing for a gear box to me, is to be totally consistent and reliable. Unfortunately, while the ZF is very, very close to imitating the dct but it does not provide same driving pleasure as a dct or manual.

For the most of us, it won't matter because we don't notice the details, nor do we track our cars. Certainly, almost all real sports cars have dct's for a reason.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am curious to see the if the next gen M3/4 will maintain DCT or will go wiht a planetary auto.

Hey Can, since this thread is jacked anyway, I recently switched out the rears on my car to 295 on the M5. It is unbelievable how the car just sticks on turns, as I'm sure you already know.

My question is I left the fronts 255 vs 265 MO spec you suggested. Will it have any DSC issues on hard driving? I had more than 50% left on the tread. Any other detrimental things I should be aware of? Thanks.

Tire bulge is pretty damn nice too:

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by ///Mikey F80

I think you missed my point, but that might have been my fault...

I'm not saying it's hard to imagine it has Ferrari DNA, I know that it does. What I'm saying is ridiculous is that this Alfa drivetrain is universally praised as amazing, seemingly only because of the fact that it has Ferrari DNA. It sounds just as bad (again, in my opinion) as the F80 does, a reason that has been given time and time again by reviewers of the F80 when they speak on the negatives of the car, but where are those same comments in these reviews about the Alfa? It makes more horsepower yes, but obviously not enough to make a difference on the track. Basically, what I'm saying is that it seems like just because there is Ferrari DNA in the QV, that the reviewers are ignoring the same stuff they sh!t on the F80 for.

The Alfa is a great car, and it's competition like this and the others that have upped their game in recent years that has me excited. I'm hoping BMW doesn't just sit there and write them off, and actually try to raise the bar. It will make for truly amazing M cars if they do. I'm all for competition

///Mike

Yes it's infuriating. They do these reviews, ignore the negatives of the Alfa completely and just gloss over them and say "it's fine because it feels good". If they do list negatives, it's things that the BMW does really well (interior, infotainment, offering a 6mt) but even in a direct comparison article never mention the fact the things they dislike on the Alfa is available or better on the m3.

Best example is I think the motortrend video they compared m3/qv/atsv. They spent like 5 minutes complaining about the lack of a 6mt option on the Alfa and how it's available in Europe and should be in the us.

But then they didn't even once mention the m3 is offered in a 6mt for less money. They did however complain about the m3s price.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Hey Can, since this thread is jacked anyway, I recently switched out the rears on my car to 295 on the M5. It is unbelievable how the car just sticks on turns, as I'm sure you already know.

My question is I left the fronts 255 vs 265 MO spec you suggested. Will it have any DSC issues on hard driving? I had more than 50% left on the tread. Any other detrimental things I should be aware of? Thanks.

Tire bulge is pretty damn nice too:

Attachment 1662498

Yes it will affect DSC calibration. Traction control should be slightly less intrusive since you are increasing the front-to-rear diameter stagger. Once you'll switch to the 265/35R19(M0), you'll like it even more .

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

They're using the ZF8 in the new M5 because it's smoother and more optimally geared. Without doing any research, I'd say VERY few people track their M5s. Therefore, a faster shifting DCT won't be needed nor very beneficial for street usage. I had the ZF8 in my previous 435. I considered it quick only while upshifting in auto mode WOT. Manual, as well as auto gear changes were slow as molasses compared to the M-DCT.

I thought the article with Peter Quintus stated that they were moving to auto in the new M5 and likely the next m3/4 were primarily due to concerns over longevity and durability linked to power output. He also happened to mention he thinks that the autos have gotten to the point where the shift times and weight are no longer advantages of dual cltuches.
To me, it sounds like they are choosing the cheaper road here since anyone who's driven any of them (and I've driven the Alfa QV) knows the zf8 is not as good as a dual clutch.

[MacaoM3NJ]

[Jason]

Final Part (3):

[Bavboy]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Yes it's infuriating. They do these reviews, ignore the negatives of the Alfa completely and just gloss over them and say "it's fine because it feels good". If they do list negatives, it's things that the BMW does really well (interior, infotainment, offering a 6mt) but even in a direct comparison article never mention the fact the things they dislike on the Alfa is available or better on the m3.

Best example is I think the motortrend video they compared m3/qv/atsv. They spent like 5 minutes complaining about the lack of a 6mt option on the Alfa and how it's available in Europe and should be in the us.

But then they didn't even once mention the m3 is offered in a 6mt for less money. They did however complain about the m3s price.

Are these types of vehicles purchased for "interior and navigation units" ?

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by Bavboy

Are these types of vehicles purchased for "interior and navigation units" ?

Well I'd argue that since you spend 100% of your time in the interior and much of the things you actually do in the vehicle have to do with interfacing with the infotainment, yes, these vehicles are purchased for "interior and navigation units", among other things. When the performance and driving experience is so close, it's the other things that you compare.

But congrats on your auto and push button brake pedal. Some driving experience you got there!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Bavboy

Are these types of vehicles purchased for "interior and navigation units" ?

How old are you? What do you drive?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by jmg

How old are you? What do you drive?

Ohh boy. Getting bavboy started again I see. He doesn't own any of these cars.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Ohh boy. Getting bavboy started again I see. He doesn't own any of these cars.

I believe he was banned for life. Claimed he has 3 Alfas and a Maserati