M4 vs Gen VI Camaro ZL1 (640Hp)

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by AYTifosi

Certainly Ford, Chevy and Caddy are putting out better products. Those cars are certainly fast and handle better. I can totally see the appeal for those of you who like muscle cars and think of "fast" as 0 to 60mph or 1/4 mile times.

I just got back from Maui where I had rented a Camaro SS vert. It was okay... I would never in a million years buy one. I do fully own that I am a car biggot for German cars. But honestly, the Camaro's pieces clunked (doors, trunk), with 10k on the clock it rattled and was lose (brakes, steering, suspension)... I can't imagine what that car would be like in another 40K. The funniest thing though was that the trunk opening was too small to fit either of our luggage! They weren't that big either. It was tight parking everywhere as it is really wide.

At least it was bright yellow.

You drove a last gen Camaro.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by AYTifosi

Certainly Ford, Chevy and Caddy are putting out better products. Those cars are certainly fast and handle better. I can totally see the appeal for those of you who like muscle cars and think of "fast" as 0 to 60mph or 1/4 mile times.

I just got back from Maui where I had rented a Camaro SS vert. It was okay... I would never in a million years buy one. I do fully own that I am a car biggot for German cars. But honestly, the Camaro's pieces clunked (doors, trunk), with 10k on the clock it rattled and was lose (brakes, steering, suspension)... I can't imagine what that car would be like in another 40K. The funniest thing though was that the trunk opening was too small to fit either of our luggage! They weren't that big either. It was tight parking everywhere as it is really wide.

At least it was bright yellow.

Your not the only "German Car Biggot"

I think the Big 3 have made big improvements in build quality with the new gen products. They still have room to go to get to the German/ Japanese build quality but give them another generation and it should be much closer.. Minus the 100k plus class.. its Europeans all the way in that class..

Driving experience and feature context it already there and surpassed in some cases.. but design/build quality they aren't there...

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Yes, but so far the 'track monster' Z06 overheats

The NA Z51 Corvette overheats without needing to go to the track and on stock tires

Making a FI car that does not overheat with serious track use is difficult. When that same brand is marketing other 'track ready' cars with transmission and engine issues at the same time they release a FI car that is 'track ready', i am beyond skeptical

I hope so!

Not that I exactly adore GM, but the overheating problem with the Z06 isn't as widespread as you'd think, and really only affects the 8-speed auto. There are packaging and space concerns on the Corvette that wouldn't be an issue for the Camaro. I'd say that if anything, the fact that GM has gotten bad press about it would make the same issue surfacing again with Camaro to be even more unlikely.

I remember when the N54 335's came out and they had serious overheating issues with the oil, but BMW eventually got a handle on it. I don't expect anything different with GM.

[04cobra]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Not that I exactly adore GM, but the overheating problem with the Z06 isn't as widespread as you'd think, and really only affects the 8-speed auto. There are packaging and space concerns on the Corvette that wouldn't be an issue for the Camaro. I'd say that if anything, the fact that GM has gotten bad press about it would make the same issue surfacing again with Camaro to be even more unlikely.

I remember when the N54 335's came out and they had serious overheating issues with the oil, but BMW eventually got a handle on it. I don't expect anything different with GM.

I agree but this ALWAYS happens with GM. The last gen CTS-V superchargers had a major heating issue and the spring cut into the S/C destroying it, not to mention oil burning problems.

I have never heard of consistent issues like this on Ford performance cars. GM can make some great performance cars, but the mechanical quality of them really scares me.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by 04cobra

I agree but this ALWAYS happens with GM. The last gen CTS-V superchargers had a major heating issue and the spring cut into the S/C destroying it, not to mention oil burning problems.

I have never heard of consistent issues like this on Ford performance cars. GM can make some great performance cars, but the mechanical quality of them really scares me.

The GT350 overheated so much they had to make the track package standard for 2017.. as for GM I think the 1LE and Grand Sport are the way to go for road racing.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by 04cobra

I agree but this ALWAYS happens with GM. The last gen CTS-V superchargers had a major heating issue and the spring cut into the S/C destroying it, not to mention oil burning problems.

I have never heard of consistent issues like this on Ford performance cars. GM can make some great performance cars, but the mechanical quality of them really scares me.

What GM doesn't realize is that they have a long way to go to repair their reputation. From building crap cars for a long time, to killing their customers and false advertising when it comes to the Z06 Vette IMO. Just to name a few issues. If they can make these new cars decently reliable though, they are on their way back.

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

The GT350 overheated so much they had to make the track package standard for 2017.. as for GM I think the 1LE and Grand Sport are the way to go for road racing.

First I've heard of the GT350 overheating. Any links?

[ClothSeats]

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205

[04cobra]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

The GT350 overheated so much they had to make the track package standard for 2017.. as for GM I think the 1LE and Grand Sport are the way to go for road racing.

Well there is a reason Ford has a track package. Why would you take your non track ready GT350 to the track and expect other results? GM has the over heating issue on normal street driving.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Not that I exactly adore GM, but the overheating problem with the Z06 isn't as widespread as you'd think, and really only affects the 8-speed auto. There are packaging and space concerns on the Corvette that wouldn't be an issue for the Camaro. I'd say that if anything, the fact that GM has gotten bad press about it would make the same issue surfacing again with Camaro to be even more unlikely.

I remember when the N54 335's came out and they had serious overheating issues with the oil, but BMW eventually got a handle on it. I don't expect anything different with GM.

Bunkei

I'm in the market for a track car and would like to buy something more track focused than a M3.
The Z06 overheating issue seems pretty widespread based on Corvette forums but I wouldn't be spending 100k on a track car anyway. That leaves me with the regular Vette

The Z51 Corvette has serious overheating issues -- with stock PSS tires. Not only the engine mind you, which car magazines have been able to overheat on mountain roads, but the transmission as well.

The N54 issue is not -at all- like this. BMW never marketed the 335 as a 'track car'. Chevy has been shouting to anyone that would listen that their Corvette Z51, Z06/7 were track monsters, race cars for the street, etc.

If someone took a F80 M3 with stock PSS tires to the track for the first time in their life and it overheated I would tell them they've bought a piece of junk and that BMW is pathetic for building a vehicle like that for 'the track' and blabbing that it's faster than all its competition at the track when in reality it's made for hard parkers

With stock PSS tires the temp gauge should not even be tickled. Anyone buying a car for 'the track' will move to stickier tires before long, tires that get cars that have zero overheating issues and gets them to overheat.

To overheat with stock tires on the first day is an epic failure. There's no way around it. There is no excuse. You cannot market that car as a 'track car'.

I'm hopeful that the ZL1 or Grandsport aren't steaming piles of untrackworthy shit, but their execution so far has been beyond terrible.

Chevy has a -1 right now on their track worthy car scale. Porsche has a 10. BMW M has a high grade as well, you can track these cars all day long with camber plates and track pads.
It would be very nice for Chevy to take out a GrandSport that matches the GT3 laptime at half the price, but we'll have to see.

Before anyone tells me that the Z51 is much faster than the M3, I'll say I agree, but no one that tracks +20 days a year will buy a car which overheats driven completely stock.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

The GT350 overheated so much they had to make the track package standard for 2017.. as for GM I think the 1LE and Grand Sport are the way to go for road racing.

Are these cars so poser oriented they literally do not survive track use?

I'm sorry, you should survive a day of track use even without a 'track pack'. Ridiculous.

Looks like BMW will get my money yet again. Others seem to have serious issues with basic concepts like engine and tranny cooling

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

.

ClothSeats

I think the Germans have a better understanding of cooling and high temps than the Big Three as far as track work related.

They (Germans/ Europeans) make cars from the ground up.. with the lowest HP motor, weakest brakes. To be able to sustain high speeds for long periods on the Autobahn and take in consideration everything that comes along with that from day one.

Not saying you can't overheat a German car.. but its designed differently from day one.. look at the z cup holder issue .. Americans get that right every time.. Z Germans are slowly starting to understand Americans and our cup holders pedigree.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

ClothSeats

I think the Germans have a better understanding of cooling and high temps than the Big Three as far as track work related.

They (Germans/ Europeans) make cars from the ground up.. with the lowest HP motor, weakest brakes. To be able to sustain high speeds for long periods on the Autobahn and take in consideration everything that comes along with that from day one.

Not saying you can't overheat a German car.. but its designed differently from day one.. look at the z cup holder issue .. Americans get that right every time.. Z Germans are slowly starting to understand Americans and our cup holders pedigree.

Lol @ German cupholders

FWIW, the previous generation 1LE and Z/28 held up nicely on track. GT500 was a one lap wonder and Chevy really dropped the ball on the C7 Z06. With the GT350 Ford had the solution but got cheap and made it a $7500 option package, screwing over many early adopters.

I am also of the opinion that track priority is not a German thing, but a BMW and Porsche thing. Modern Audis are nose heavy and Mercedes only offers slushboxes under $100k (except for the CLA, but who really wants to track a CLA?).

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

ClothSeats

I think the Germans have a better understanding of cooling and high temps than the Big Three as far as track work related.

They (Germans/ Europeans) make cars from the ground up.. with the lowest HP motor, weakest brakes. To be able to sustain high speeds for long periods on the Autobahn and take in consideration everything that comes along with that from day one.

Not saying you can't overheat a German car.. but its designed differently from day one.. look at the z cup holder issue .. Americans get that right every time.. Z Germans are slowly starting to understand Americans and our cup holders pedigree.

This is depressing

[See5]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

The GT350 overheated so much they had to make the track package standard for 2017.. as for GM I think the 1LE and Grand Sport are the way to go for road racing.

That's not the reason they made the track package standard.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

This is depressing

Its so true.. they are like.. You want to eat in Z car? Drink super gulp in Z car.. Taco Bell?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

Lol @ German cupholders

FWIW, the previous generation 1LE and Z/28 held up nicely on track. GT500 was a one lap wonder and Chevy really dropped the ball on the C7 Z06. With the GT350 Ford had the solution but got cheap and made it a $7500 option package, screwing over many early adopters.

I am also of the opinion that track priority is not a German thing, but a BMW and Porsche thing. Modern Audis are nose heavy and Mercedes only offers slushboxes under $100k (except for the CLA, but who really wants to track a CLA?).

I'm still wondering why you think it is on Ford. It seems simple to me. If you are going to track the GT350, get the track package. If not, don't.

I think it is the buyers of those cars that are expecting something that they probably shouldn't be. I think it is the other way around and the consumer got cheap. They should of optioned the car correctly for the intended purpose.

[ClothSeats]

Originally Posted by minn19

I'm still wondering why you think it is on Ford. It seems simple to me. If you are going to track the GT350, get the track package. If not, don't.

I think it is the buyers of those cars that are expecting something that they probably shouldn't be. I think it is the other way around and the consumer got cheap. They should of optioned the car correctly for the intended purpose.

It depends on your philosophy. I am of the belief that track capability should come built-in to a performance car of the GT350's stature, even if it means a higher MSRP. Would you like an M3/M4 that overheated on the track if it came with a lower base price?

Apparently Ford market research felt the same since they made the track package standard for 2017.. but there are others, like yourself, that believe there was no wrongdoing on Ford's part. Agree to disagree.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

It depends on your philosophy. I am of the belief that track capability should come built-in to a performance car of the GT350's stature, even if it means a higher MSRP. Would you like an M3/M4 that overheated on the track if it came with a lower base price?

Apparently Ford market research felt the same since they made the track package standard for 2017.. but there are others, like yourself, that believe there was no wrongdoing on Ford's part. Agree to disagree.

If BMW had spelled out such a difference on their configurator like Ford had, then no, I wouldn't be surprised.

I played with the Ford configurator a lot building a few GT350s. It was pretty clear what you got with the Track Pack and what it would be needed for.

At least they didn't do what GM did and advertised it like you stated and it couldn't live up to the promises. There is zero excuse for that and another reason like others I'm waiting to here real world experiences with the new SS, ZL1 and Vette GS.

[fusionchicken]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

ClothSeats look at the z cup holder issue .. Americans get that right every time.. Z Germans are slowly starting to understand Americans and our cup holders pedigree.

Haha, this reminds me of the Top Gear episode with Clarkson covering the c6 z06 where the first thing the Nav finds for you is fast food restaurants

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Not saying you can't overheat a German car.. but its designed differently from day one...

Bmw makes lot of compromises too, especially non m cars.

Even on m car, PSS tire is a clear sign of streetability compromise.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Bmw makes lot of compromises too, especially non m cars.

Even on m car, PSS tire is a clear sign of streetability compromise.

Agreed

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Bunkei

I'm in the market for a track car and would like to buy something more track focused than a M3.
The Z06 overheating issue seems pretty widespread based on Corvette forums but I wouldn't be spending 100k on a track car anyway. That leaves me with the regular Vette

The Z51 Corvette has serious overheating issues -- with stock PSS tires. Not only the engine mind you, which car magazines have been able to overheat on mountain roads, but the transmission as well.

The N54 issue is not -at all- like this. BMW never marketed the 335 as a 'track car'. Chevy has been shouting to anyone that would listen that their Corvette Z51, Z06/7 were track monsters, race cars for the street, etc.

If someone took a F80 M3 with stock PSS tires to the track for the first time in their life and it overheated I would tell them they've bought a piece of junk and that BMW is pathetic for building a vehicle like that for 'the track' and blabbing that it's faster than all its competition at the track when in reality it's made for hard parkers

With stock PSS tires the temp gauge should not even be tickled. Anyone buying a car for 'the track' will move to stickier tires before long, tires that get cars that have zero overheating issues and gets them to overheat.

To overheat with stock tires on the first day is an epic failure. There's no way around it. There is no excuse. You cannot market that car as a 'track car'.

I'm hopeful that the ZL1 or Grandsport aren't steaming piles of untrackworthy shit, but their execution so far has been beyond terrible.

Chevy has a -1 right now on their track worthy car scale. Porsche has a 10. BMW M has a high grade as well, you can track these cars all day long with camber plates and track pads.
It would be very nice for Chevy to take out a GrandSport that matches the GT3 laptime at half the price, but we'll have to see.

Before anyone tells me that the Z51 is much faster than the M3, I'll say I agree, but no one that tracks +20 days a year will buy a car which overheats driven completely stock.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the overheating issues with the Z51, but I'm not much of a Corvette person

You have legitimate points of concern, and my only point will be that eventually it should be addressed. However, that does little to comfort existing owners.

I don't believe in brand bias though. I don't believe that the badge will tell you (nowadays) how reliable a car will be. As upset as you might be with GM, may I also direct your attention to BMW for the cesspool of shit they've put owners of the 2006-2008 E60 SMG M5's through. It's darn near a crime and those cars should be recalled.

I will never buy GM cars on moral grounds. The scandal and the subsequent cover-up with the ignition issue, and the company trying to dodge responsibility by saying that the fault lies with pre-bankrupt GM, and not present-day (post-bankrupt) GM is completely insane; considering that they employ the same people.

I feel you for your car choice. I'm not in a position to buy another car, but even if I was, BMW doesn't build anything in my price range that comes close to the performance of the E92 M3 or even my previous car (E92 335).