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      07-02-2017, 09:53 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mikecom32 View Post
What about the upcoming 718 GT4? It's rumored to run a detuned GT3 engine based on the sound coming out of it during 'ring testing.

There are rumors of a GT4 RS as well.
Yes, that's going to be a different story!

The upcoming 718 GT4 (and possibly RS) could be one of the best cars Porsche has ever made as they are retaining the NA 6. And a big part of this is that as cars start trending towards electric and hybrid, these last few NA 6 GT cars are going to be essentially collector cars in a way.

It's funny that Porsche's best auto chassis is also it's worst seller. I understand that the money is in crossovers like the Macan, but as a person who loves sports cars, it is a disgusting statement to hear. Oh well, hopefully all that Macan, Panamera, and Cayenne money helps Porsche's GT department research and development.
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      07-03-2017, 07:42 AM   #90
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Lol, you would pass on a better car even if true?

I would say in general, the guys in PCA have way better car control skills than 95% (except for me) on this board.

I have club raced PCA since the 80s and have been a nationally certified instructor for them since the 90s. I would say generally the age is about 30/40s at track and club events and not any different than other clubs I have instructed for including BMW CCA, PBOC Racing (used to be heavy BMW), Audi, Chin and etc.

A lot of guys that I have raced with outside PCA Club have 911s as daily drivers (vastly more than M cars) even if they don't race Porsches including many of the Ferrari Challenge guys raced with up until a couple of years ago. Lol, don't under estimate us old guys cruising our 911s and thank God I have a full head of hair!
Better is very subjective. For my needs the F8x is much better. Obviously everyone is different.

I've always loved Porsche but could never jump on owning one for many reasons.

I know that not every person driving a Porsche is Geriatric it just seems that way. The cost of admission is the culprit. I am sure younger people with families and other responsibilities can't/shouldn't lay down $120-150K on an impractical sports car. Thats where the M3s/M4s come into play. You can have 75-80% of the fun (maybe more depending) for the half the cashola.

I was just messing around with my post. Not trying to offend.
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      07-03-2017, 08:00 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Better is very subjective. For my needs the F8x is much better. Obviously everyone is different.

I've always loved Porsche but could never jump on owning one for many reasons.

I know that not every person driving a Porsche is Geriatric it just seems that way. The cost of admission is the culprit. I am sure younger people with families and other responsibilities can't/shouldn't lay down $120-150K on an impractical sports car. Thats where the M3s/M4s come into play. You can have 75-80% of the fun (maybe more depending) for the half the cashola.

I was just messing around with my post. Not trying to offend.
Lol, its all good. More surprised than anything as I usually think Vettes as the gold chain, hairy chest, old bald dude's car.

Maybe its geographical, but most of my buddies with exotics got them in our 30s/40s and 911s are actually the entry level, daily driver type. Guy coming over tonight for dinner has a Veyron Mansory and a LaFerrari and just turned 40.

Your guys need to get out of New York and California and away from state income tax and high priced housing so you can step up and enjoy before you get old and bald . . .

Last edited by 996ttelise; 07-03-2017 at 09:46 AM..
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      07-03-2017, 10:54 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Better is very subjective. For my needs the F8x is much better. Obviously everyone is different.

I've always loved Porsche but could never jump on owning one for many reasons.

I know that not every person driving a Porsche is Geriatric it just seems that way. The cost of admission is the culprit. I am sure younger people with families and other responsibilities can't/shouldn't lay down $120-150K on an impractical sports car. Thats where the M3s/M4s come into play. You can have 75-80% of the fun (maybe more depending) for the half the cashola.

I was just messing around with my post. Not trying to offend.
actually my CPO 2013 991 C2S was less than my M4, and it had 4 years of warranty left on it when I bought it. 2 year old CPO is the most cost effective way to get into a porsche
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      07-03-2017, 11:26 AM   #93
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I just got my car so I haven't had a chance to hit up any tracks but I agree cars and coffee crowds are the worst.
I can gladly say I have never once been to a cars and coffee. Wife has gone a few times, but she is taking a new Rolls, Vanquish, DB11 or special edition Ferraris that her company is trying to sell . . . Definitely all pose at those.
I guess to each his own. I enjoy hanging out with car folks at a cars and coffee. Most people I meet love their cars and appreciate all the other cars that show up whether old muscle or something newer. It seems you've been lucky enough to have been able to own and drive many high end cars so it may not be as attractive to you. It may also matter where someone lives. I could see if I lived in a more snooty town it could become obnoxious quickly.
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      07-04-2017, 01:43 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
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Originally Posted by mikex25 View Post
I just got my car so I haven't had a chance to hit up any tracks but I agree cars and coffee crowds are the worst.
I can gladly say I have never once been to a cars and coffee. Wife has gone a few times, but she is taking a new Rolls, Vanquish, DB11 or special edition Ferraris that her company is trying to sell . . . Definitely all pose at those.
I guess to each his own. I enjoy hanging out with car folks at a cars and coffee. Most people I meet love their cars and appreciate all the other cars that show up whether old muscle or something newer. It seems you've been lucky enough to have been able to own and drive many high end cars so it may not be as attractive to you. It may also matter where someone lives. I could see if I lived in a more snooty town it could become obnoxious quickly.
I live in San Jose CA next to Palo Alto which is tech VC capital USA. Seeing Porsche's and exotics are pretty common and I seen too many babied GT3's or GT3 RS's that has never been to a track which is what they are made for.
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      07-06-2017, 09:43 AM   #95
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I was going back a forth between a base and an S but finally settled on this GTS.
That's how "settling" is done!
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      07-06-2017, 09:47 AM   #96
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I was going back a forth between a base and an S but finally settled on this GTS.
That's how "settling" is done!
Lol
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      07-27-2017, 12:07 AM   #97
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So back to the original question: is a Porsche the next logical step?

Hard to answer...

I would absolutely love to own an older aircooled 911, 964 or earlier. Drove my friend's '85 with full suspension and it was magical, very old school. But it would have to be a third or fourth car, it could never be at the expense of something like an M3, because I couldn't DD and track it. But if I owned one like that I'd never sell it.

Nostalgia aside, I think I'd enjoy a 991.2 GT3 stick very much. Maybe even a GTS but then the price is so close to the GT3 it would always have to go in favor of the GT3.

The "regular" 991.2 S was just not a big/special enough of a step-up for me. It's not a popular opinion with our resident Porsche trolls, but I value my opinion over theirs.

Perhaps a GT4 with shorter gears would also be good. I liked how compact and nimble it felt, and the manual gearbox also felt ace. I wonder if such a mod exists...
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      07-27-2017, 07:18 AM   #98
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Perhaps many are operating in a vacuum with no real world first hand 911 experience or based on a test drive here and there where constraints are present.

I picked up my 17 M3 ZCP with MT 7 months ago and it was cool in that it had the largest back seat of any car I have used as a daily driver perhaps ever (obviously excluding spouse vehicles and various SUVs used to pull car haulers and boats).

Over the past 30 to 60 days, however, the M3 just sits in the garage and no-one wants to drive it any more except I still take it to court or for depositions that are 2.5 to 3 hours away, but even then I find myself not really wanting to drive the M3.

The culprit . . . In May, my wife picked up a 997.2 (BASE of all things) cabriolet with pdk and I literally now drive that car almost every day and every chance I get while my F80 just sits. Luckily, wife is a good sport about it. Wife picks her Macan S every single day over the M3 when I am driving her 997.2.

The 997.2 base model with pdk is simply a much more enjoyable car to drive than the M3 ZCP with MT and it basically is not even a close call about which car I WANT to take each morning

I will likely dump the M3 and bring the DB11 up for Florida for back seat duty as the M3 simply is no longer being driven and apply that payment toward something else.
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      07-27-2017, 07:53 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc
So back to the original question: is a Porsche the next logical step?

Hard to answer...

I would absolutely love to own an older aircooled 911, 964 or earlier. Drove my friend's '85 with full suspension and it was magical, very old school. But it would have to be a third or fourth car, it could never be at the expense of something like an M3, because I couldn't DD and track it. But if I owned one like that I'd never sell it.

Nostalgia aside, I think I'd enjoy a 991.2 GT3 stick very much. Maybe even a GTS but then the price is so close to the GT3 it would always have to go in favor of the GT3.

The "regular" 991.2 S was just not a big/special enough of a step-up for me. It's not a popular opinion with our resident Porsche trolls, but I value my opinion over theirs.

Perhaps a GT4 with shorter gears would also be good. I liked how compact and nimble it felt, and the manual gearbox also felt ace. I wonder if such a mod exists...
if you cant tell the handling diff between a Pcar and a M car then i see why its "Hard to answer" ;-)
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      07-27-2017, 09:10 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
Perhaps many are operating in a vacuum with no real world first hand 911 experience or based on a test drive here and there where constraints are present.

I picked up my 17 M3 ZCP with MT 7 months ago and it was cool in that it had the largest back seat of any car I have used as a daily driver perhaps ever (obviously excluding spouse vehicles and various SUVs used to pull car haulers and boats).

Over the past 30 to 60 days, however, the M3 just sits in the garage and no-one wants to drive it any more except I still take it to court or for depositions that are 2.5 to 3 hours away, but even then I find myself not really wanting to drive the M3.

The culprit . . . In May, my wife picked up a 997.2 (BASE of all things) cabriolet with pdk and I literally now drive that car almost every day and every chance I get while my F80 just sits. Luckily, wife is a good sport about it. Wife picks her Macan S every single day over the M3 when I am driving her 997.2.

The 997.2 base model with pdk is simply a much more enjoyable car to drive than the M3 ZCP with MT and it basically is not even a close call about which car I WANT to take each morning

I will likely dump the M3 and bring the DB11 up for Florida for back seat duty as the M3 simply is no longer being driven and apply that payment toward something else.
Your situation doesn't really resemble a "next step" scenario, you clearly have a large and interesting garage with or without the M. We don't operate in a vacuum, since the vacuum between an M3 and a 911 is filled with lots of dollar bills.

If you had just one car to DD and track, what would it be?
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      07-27-2017, 09:16 AM   #101
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if you cant tell the handling diff between a Pcar and a M car then i see why its "Hard to answer" ;-)
I can tell the difference in handling and feel just fine, I just don't think some P cars are worth the extra money is all. The GT3 should be the full complete experience, and not lose money over a few years so perhaps in this case you spend more to save more, and have a blast in the process.

But going to a car like that compromises the DD aspect quite a bit. Would you drive it in DC to work? How about in December - March when it's freezing.

Many questions to answer, so while it may be a step up perhaps it's not the most logical? That was the OP's question after all...
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      07-27-2017, 10:21 AM   #102
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Had an 2012 E92 M3 ZCP which was a load of fun. Still miss the sound of that V8 w sport exhaust at redline. Test drove the 2015 F80 M4 but wasn't happy. At the time the fit and finish didn't meet my expectations and I wasn't a big fan of the steering feel. Picked up a 2015 991.1 base instead (got it at 37, so I'm no geriatric, ha ha). The car had less personality than my M3 but was very refined and was quicker than it felt - still a lot of effort to get performance out of it because it had no torque, but I was used to that from the E92.

Just test drove a 2017 M4 ZCP 2 weeks ago and it's much nicer than I remember from 2015. Fit and finish seems improved and the performance is great. Still 'ok' on steering but was very impressed. Ended up ordering a 2018 991.2 base, however, because it has torque now (yay turbos!), but at the cost of the exhaust sound (boo turbos!)... but overall looks to be ~10% quicker than my 991.1. Also it's hard to go back because the quality of the materials, fit and finish is very good.

PS. My BMW salesman did make the decision easier, though. Worst experience ever. Despite buying 2 cars and leasing a 3rd for my dad from them, I somehow got listed as a bad lead in their system (probably because I didn't buy the first M4 from them) and the service was atrocious. They didn't answer my questions and never got back to me with the info that I had requested (simple stuff... like how long is the wait on a custom order). I won't completely blame them though because it's easy enough to go elsewhere, but after my 991.2 test drive I immediately negotiated and put in the 2018 purchase before leaving the dealership.
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      07-27-2017, 10:46 AM   #103
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I can tell the difference in handling and feel just fine, I just don't think some P cars are worth the extra money is all. The GT3 should be the full complete experience, and not lose money over a few years so perhaps in this case you spend more to save more, and have a blast in the process.
The OP asked a simple question he didn't detail much in original post. Thus the answer is yes.

What got me tho that you said it's not worth the money. I bought the M4 without test-driving it as I never owned a M car before and was disappointed. Once I drove the 991.2, even the base, I knew that I need to sell my M4.

You could get a used C2 or C4 even in the mid/high 80k's. Driving this thing is a blast and totally different experience. Porsche gives us a set of turbos in the 991.2, with some simple tune and it's lighter than M4, it's WELL worth it.

We have a GT3 in our extended family. I would not daily it. Once my uncle drove my C2, he prefers mine to the GT3 for daily commute. It's a great track car for sure!
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      07-27-2017, 04:31 PM   #104
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The OP asked a simple question he didn't detail much in original post. Thus the answer is yes.

What got me tho that you said it's not worth the money. I bought the M4 without test-driving it as I never owned a M car before and was disappointed. Once I drove the 991.2, even the base, I knew that I need to sell my M4.

You could get a used C2 or C4 even in the mid/high 80k's. Driving this thing is a blast and totally different experience. Porsche gives us a set of turbos in the 991.2, with some simple tune and it's lighter than M4, it's WELL worth it.

We have a GT3 in our extended family. I would not daily it. Once my uncle drove my C2, he prefers mine to the GT3 for daily commute. It's a great track car for sure!
$70,000 M3 vs $120,000 C2S, $140,000 GTS, or $160,000 GT3. I would argue that it's anything BUT well worth it. You aren't getting twice the car.

The same argument can be made for a used 911 vs used M3.

Or why not go in the other direction and argue for something more exotic: R8 V10, Lamborghini or McLaren. Why stop at Porsche if you're going up, surely these cars are worth it by the same logic (totally different driving experience, a blast to drive etc).
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      07-27-2017, 05:30 PM   #105
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$70,000 M3 vs $120,000 C2S, $140,000 GTS, or $160,000 GT3. I would argue that it's anything BUT well worth it. You aren't getting twice the car.

The same argument can be made for a used 911 vs used M3.

Or why not go in the other direction and argue for something more exotic: R8 V10, Lamborghini or McLaren. Why stop at Porsche if you're going up, surely these cars are worth it by the same logic (totally different driving experience, a blast to drive etc).
You and I both know it doesn't work like that. Cars aren't linear in their value proposition vs one another. There are far too many factors at play (quality, brand, production supply, etc). Different brands aside, you don't get more than 2X the car in an M4 GTS than an M4 and would argue you likely don't get much more at all performance wise all things equals. And going back to brand vs brand, a C2S or a GT3 are far better than an M4 GTS for less money or slightly more. Hell, I'd take a base 991.2 over an M4 GTS and would probably be neck and neck with cup tires on it with each other.
Thing is, if BMW could, they'd sell the M3/4 for 120k like Porsche does the Carrera S but they'd price themselves out of sales that way. Porsche not only sells them but commands whatever price they want and continue to set record sales while doing it.
You don't get 3x the car in a Mclaren 675LT over a GT3 and would argue the GT3 is a better experience for far less, and the value retention would support that.
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      07-27-2017, 11:54 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Your situation doesn't really resemble a "next step" scenario, you clearly have a large and interesting garage with or without the M. We don't operate in a vacuum, since the vacuum between an M3 and a 911 is filled with lots of dollar bills.

If you had just one car to DD and track, what would it be?
Good question and what's the budget! If having to stay around the price of an M3, would pick up a CPO 991.1 S coupe now that my 6 year old daughter can do booster seat as opposed to car seat. Price no object, I love my DB11.
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      07-28-2017, 08:18 AM   #107
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Good question and what's the budget! If having to stay around the price of an M3, would pick up a CPO 991.1 S coupe now that my 6 year old daughter can do booster seat as opposed to car seat. Price no object, I love my DB11.
I was under the impression the DB11 is more of a GT, for whatever these labels are worth. Do you track it?
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      07-28-2017, 08:27 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise View Post
You and I both know it doesn't work like that. Cars aren't linear in their value proposition vs one another. There are far too many factors at play (quality, brand, production supply, etc). Different brands aside, you don't get more than 2X the car in an M4 GTS than an M4 and would argue you likely don't get much more at all performance wise all things equals. And going back to brand vs brand, a C2S or a GT3 are far better than an M4 GTS for less money or slightly more. Hell, I'd take a base 991.2 over an M4 GTS and would probably be neck and neck with cup tires on it with each other.
Thing is, if BMW could, they'd sell the M3/4 for 120k like Porsche does the Carrera S but they'd price themselves out of sales that way. Porsche not only sells them but commands whatever price they want and continue to set record sales while doing it.
You don't get 3x the car in a Mclaren 675LT over a GT3 and would argue the GT3 is a better experience for far less, and the value retention would support that.
The 675LT was sold out before it went on sale, and keeps the value very well so far. And your argument for it not being worth the price over a GT3 is purely based on the fact that you cannot afford it.

Bottom line is that it isn't worth it to you (or to me), and as such it isn't the next logical step up.

I would never tell a GTI owner that an M4 is the next logical step, since it's almost 3x the price.



Generally speaking, it may be hard for you to understand, but Porsche is NOT the best car in the world. That's one reason why people who can afford anything don't stop at the Porsche isle, they keep shopping.
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      07-28-2017, 09:02 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
The 675LT was sold out before it went on sale, and keeps the value very well so far. And your argument for it not being worth the price over a GT3 is purely based on the fact that you cannot afford it.

Bottom line is that it isn't worth it to you (or to me), and as such it isn't the next logical step up.

I would never tell a GTI owner that an M4 is the next logical step, since it's almost 3x the price.



Generally speaking, it may be hard for you to understand, but Porsche is NOT the best car in the world. That's one reason why people who can afford anything don't stop at the Porsche isle, they keep shopping.
First of all, you have no idea what I can and can't afford. Whether I can or can't, Mclarens don't do it for me.

Never said Porsche was the best, but neither is Mclaren. I am friends with plenty of guys who have more money than they know what to do with and have a slew of cars but will tell you all day long the Porsche is the best car they own. It may be hard for you to fathom, but Porsche makes perennial home runs in their cars. Just wait until they do launch the GT2RS and the upcoming 400k 960 because both are going to shame anything in their path as they always do.
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      07-28-2017, 09:12 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
$70,000 M3 vs $120,000 C2S, $140,000 GTS, or $160,000 GT3. I would argue that it's anything BUT well worth it. You aren't getting twice the car.

The same argument can be made for a used 911 vs used M3.

Or why not go in the other direction and argue for something more exotic: R8 V10, Lamborghini or McLaren. Why stop at Porsche if you're going up, surely these cars are worth it by the same logic (totally different driving experience, a blast to drive etc).
It seems like you're losing track of the original question. OP never asked if he should get a used M or used P car. I'm responding to your comment "Not worth it" when considering Pcar. That's all.

You also have no idea what you're talking about. Let me break it down for you.

1. Who on earth would want a out of warranty and dated transmission R8 (in referencing to my comment about mid/high equivanlent 80k's car as an upgrade)? A member here who owns both even stated that he would rather drive a M car than R8 for DD.

2. If you could get a 80Ks/still warranty 570GT or S, sign me up.

Good weekend man.
Appreciate 0
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