SportAuto M4 CS against Mustang Shelby GT350

[Mandi90TT]

Not completely relevant, but a data point: recent HPDE3 with NASA (passing entire track with point bys), there was a driver in my group with a GT350 and he and I had pretty much the same driver skills.

He was driving a GT350 (not 350R) with track package. I was driving my 15 M4, with JB4 making roughly 3 extra lbs of boost. Temp was in the mid/low 90s. Both of us had R-comp tires, mine were Nitto NT-01s, can't remember what his were.

I was consistently faster than him on the track. I understand it was a DE, we were not racing, and certainly driver skill is a factor, but I think we were about the same skill, and probably he was a bit more skilled than me.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Not completely relevant, but a data point: recent HPDE3 with NASA (passing entire track with point bys), there was a driver in my group with a GT350 and he and I had pretty much the same driver skills.

He was driving a GT350 (not 350R) with track package. I was driving my 15 M4, with JB4 making roughly 3 extra lbs of boost. Temp was in the mid/low 90s. Both of us had R-comp tires, mine were Nitto NT-01s, can't remember what his were.

I was consistently faster than him on the track. I understand it was a DE, we were not racing, and certainly driver skill is a factor, but I think we were about the same skill, and probably he was a bit more skilled than me.

Are you seriously comparing tuned to stock .Considering most folks I see at DE's are racing on the straights and grabbing the corners not surprised a tuned M4 comes out on top lol .

[basscadet]

When will BMW start to worry about the Mustang and Camaro problem? When owners and enthusiasts such as ourselves stop turning our nose up at dynamically superior cars like the GT350 because it has "cheap plastic".

I'd sell my m3 in a heartbeat if there was such thing as a 4-door Mustang. The car is everything the M3 isn't: riotous, engaging, dangerous, and cheap. And, oh yeah, it has ventilated seats and magnetic shocks - options I cannot even tick in a M3. Shameful.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by basscadet

When will BMW start to worry about the Mustang and Camaro problem? When owners and enthusiasts such as ourselves stop turning our nose up at dynamically superior cars like the GT350 because it has "cheap plastic".

I'd sell my m3 in a heartbeat if there was such thing as a 4-door Mustang. The car is everything the M3 isn't: riotous, engaging, dangerous, and cheap. And, oh yeah, it has ventilated seats and magnetic shocks - options I cannot even tick in a M3. Shameful.

Have you looked into the Chevy SS (the sedan not Camaro)? Its supposed to be the spirit descendant of the old M5 we all love.

[PawnStar]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Quick summary:

- M4 CS has minimum HP increase over the standard M4, power alone does not justify the expense over the M4.

- Weight reduction, though it has CF rear diffuser and the CF bonnet, the CS was just 6Kg lighter than the standard M4 SA tested previously.

- However, the CS conceals its weight very well, the tuning of the chassis such as differential lock and the ABS have been specially adapted to the CS, as the result, the CS will lap the Hockenheim course at 1.11.0 in hot conditions, with a lower temperature, it could have be in the 1.10s.

- M4 CS is the most rounded M4 so far in SA's opinion, not so focused like the M4 GTS, but noticeably better than the standard M4, it has a chance to become a future classic.

This test is meant as a joke, right? M4 is running Sport Cup 2 racing rubber to Mustang's Super Sport street tire compound. Not to mention M4's carbon ceramics to GT350 steel rotors, DCT automatic vs manual crutch

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by PawnStar

This test is meant as a joke, right? M4 is running Sport Cup 2 racing rubber to Mustang's Super Sport street tire compound. Not to mention M4's carbon ceramics to GT350 steel rotors, DCT automatic vs manual crutch

Don't think most here care about the Mustang, so as you can see my summary is mainly on M4 CS and it's capability compare to the M4 GTS and standard M4.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Don't think most here care about the Mustang, so as you can see my summary is mainly on M4 CS and it's capability compare to the M4 GTS and standard M4.

Same here, I am mostly interested with the info about the CS. I could really care less about the compare with the Mustang.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ixse

As i stated above, my bone stock 350 w track pkg doesnt over heat even during 104 degree sunmer weather in socal. Had 5 hard sessions at auto club speedway w zero issues w engine or brakes. Try taking stock m3/4 w stock brakes and see how it goes after a session.

They mention the hot weather simply because a NA engine cannot compensate for atmospheric conditions like modern FI can. They do not say the car overheated or went into limp mode. The track pack would have made no difference in terms of temperatures in this test IMO.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

They picked a base 350 with no track package( Ford from the beginning even says must have this to track ) to compare to the more track oriented M4 CS on a hot day where the various oil coolers would be necessary. Talk about stacking the deck to get a desired outcome lol . How about compare the M4CS to a GT350R which would still be 40,000 cheaper oh wait it would lose badly so can't do that ( 350R beats the M4GTS handily on every track ) .Heck they could have at least gotten one with the track package , and not had a worthless test .

I wonder if the GT350R is even available in Europe ?

IIRC, even the GT350 can only be had through a private importer.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by basscadet

When will BMW start to worry about the Mustang and Camaro problem? When owners and enthusiasts such as ourselves stop turning our nose up at dynamically superior cars like the GT350 because it has "cheap plastic".

I don't think they're concerned with being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" any more. More like "Best Driving Experience in the Luxury Segment."

There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't really take away from the greatness of the M cars, but it is a shift that's taken place in the last five to ten years.

The entry-level luxury/luxury segment is where the money is, so I suspect they will keep tapping that well until it dries up.

I suspect they have something up their sleeves though, as downmarket cars have surpassed them dynamically, and their rivals at Mercedes/AMG have caught up (and even surpassed them in some ways).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Are you seriously comparing tuned to stock .Considering most folks I see at DE's are racing on the straights and grabbing the corners not surprised a tuned M4 comes out on top lol .

Two GT350 at my local track last year. One on Hoosiers the other on PSC2. My stock M4 on NT01. It was not even close. But then again, amateur track days don't tell that much...

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Two GT350 at my local track last year. One on Hoosiers the other on PSC2. My stock M4 on NT01. It was not even close. But then again, amateur track days don't tell that much...

Well I'm faster than the modded M4 record on Pirelli slicks at my local track in my modded Z4 4M on Street tires . Just picked up a GT350R and I can say with confidence it will handle my Z4M even bone stock on track . The grip is amazing , the car is dead neutral and the motor has an amazing power curve above 4K . Pulls endlessly from 4.5k to fuel cut at 8300. Even in 90 degree heat it's no slouch in a straight line either 60-100 mph in 4.3 seconds and 60-130 mph in 10.5 with 2 shifts zero slope plus 2000 DA . Driving experience wise it's a 10/10 . I actually sold my Z4M track car that I've had for 7 years and will be using the 350r. Have some track time coming up next month despite the heat and can't wait to let it rip at Roebling. Can't speak to the non R 350 but this is the best driving car I have ever experienced and I've been fortunate . Don't get my wrong the interior is shite , yada yada, but driving it and the sound are so fantastic you just don't care. And I have seen an incredibly slow driven 350 , 991 Turbo S, And C7 Z07 Z06 that I've handled easily in a " lesser car" . Driver 90% car 10% as always . Until you look at actual lap times , I was faster doesn't mean much in terms of cars capability .

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Are you seriously comparing tuned to stock .Considering most folks I see at DE's are racing on the straights and grabbing the corners not surprised a tuned M4 comes out on top lol .

I bow to your superiority. One day, when I grow up, I aspire to be half as good as you.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Well I'm faster than the modded M4 record on Pirelli slicks at my local track in my modded Z4 4M on Street tires . Just picked up a GT350R and I can say with confidence it will handle my Z4M even bone stock on track . The grip is amazing , the car is dead neutral and the motor has an amazing power curve above 4K . Pulls endlessly from 4.5k to fuel cut at 8300. Even in 90 degree heat it's no slouch in a straight line either 60-100 mph in 4.3 seconds and 60-130 mph in 10.5 with 2 shifts zero slope plus 2000 DA . Driving experience wise it's a 10/10 . I actually sold my Z4M track car that I've had for 7 years and will be using the 350r. Have some track time coming up next month despite the heat and can't wait to let it rip at Roebling. Can't speak to the non R 350 but this is the best driving car I have ever experienced and I've been fortunate . Don't get my wrong the interior is shite , yada yada, but driving it and the sound are so fantastic you just don't care. And I have seen an incredibly slow driven 350 , 991 Turbo S, And C7 Z07 Z06 that I've handled easily in a " lesser car" . Driver 90% car 10% as always . Until you look at actual lap times , I was faster doesn't mean much in terms of cars capability .

I wonder why you spend so much time on the F8X forum...

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I wonder why you spend so much time on the F8X forum...

It's your friendly company and I appreciate all cars, regardless of brand. My point is none of us are pros , we drive as fun hobby and results will vary . I always find comparisons very interesting and good enthusiast conversation , just didn't think this one made sense .

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

It's your friendly company and I appreciate all cars, regardless of brand. My point is none of us are pros , we drive as fun hobby and results will vary . I always find comparisons very interesting and good enthusiast conversation , just didn't think this one made sense .

You don't seem to appreciate the F8X

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You don't seem to appreciate the F8X

Ha , it hasn't been my favorite M , but the CP corrected most of my chassis complaints . Was hoping the CS would be under a 100k . It's a fantastic car if under a 100.

[stevehifi]

I test drove the gt350 when before I bought an F80... it's extreme in every way - power (high rpm), handling, sound (amazing) and STEERING.. in fact it's the exact opposite to the M3.. it's almost too sensitive (you have to be awake to drive this car).

Of course the interior is cheap rental car, build quality is garbage and it's not practical in any way.

Two different cars... gt350-track car, m3/m4 - luxury GT car, M4CS - more expensive luxury GT car

[ClothSeats]

The M4 CS seems to have recaptured the magic BMW was criticized of losing

However it's $100k with no manual, no front speakers, and minimal sound deadening. Wouldn't it be more well-rounded to have this suspension tune with a manual and the regular luxury features.

Wonder it's possible to code these suspension settings into a non-CS. According to reviews it has the identical shocks to the ZCP just tuned differently.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

They mention the hot weather simply because a NA engine cannot compensate for atmospheric conditions like modern FI can. They do not say the car overheated or went into limp mode. The track pack would have made no difference in terms of temperatures in this test IMO.

I would think the mag ride would help and maybe the track pack spoiler would've helped with some downforce as it is much larger than the base/tech one. Somebody mentioned the CF brakes on the M4 CS are an advantage over the GT350s and I don't think that is the case. The GT350s brakes on all models are excellent (the same) and are very fade resistant.

I'm with you on the engine temp, but I wonder about the differential and how that was performing. The base/tech cars don't have differential coolers and they get very very hot extremely quickly on these cars (most I'm sure) and there is no limp mode to protect it from melting itself down.

I just ordered a Scroth Quick Fit Pro for my car and the shoulder harnesses come through the holes in the recaros from the back seat mounting points. Do you have a harness and how do you fit it with these seats?

Last, I know you don't care about the comparo so much, but it would be interesting to see them do a GT350R against a non comp pack M4. The comments would be fun.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Ha , it hasn't been my favorite M , but the CP corrected most of my chassis complaints . Was hoping the CS would be under a 100k . It's a fantastic car if under a 100.

Euro just reached a 13 month high today. Does not look promising for a CS under $100,000.
More like $110,000.

FYI, sales price in euros was announced at €117,900. That would be over $130,000 at today's exchange rate but we know BMW prices cars lower in the US than in Europe. Wait and see...

[elitex]

Owned a GT350.... great car but it lacks build quality. Terrible paint, cheap plastics. Imagine if Germans built something like the GT350 at $80-$90k price point....