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      08-02-2017, 02:39 PM   #67
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looking forward to the day when I can buy a BMW that doesn't conceal its weight very well.. and instead simply is lightweight.
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      08-02-2017, 03:34 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
They picked a base 350 with no track package( Ford from the beginning even says must have this to track ) to compare to the more track oriented M4 CS on a hot day where the various oil coolers would be necessary. Talk about stacking the deck to get a desired outcome lol . How about compare the M4CS to a GT350R which would still be 40,000 cheaper oh wait it would lose badly so can't do that ( 350R beats the M4GTS handily on every track ) .Heck they could have at least gotten one with the track package , and not had a worthless test .
The GT350/GT350R are not available in Germany. The GT350 they used was a privately imported one and it costs 80k € here in Germany in the base version. Still a lot cheaper than the M4 CS, but miles away from US pricing.
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      08-02-2017, 04:17 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Did that center console in the Stang get sent in from the 1980s?

I know that's not the "point" of these cars (and I don't care for the cardboard door panels on the CS either) but that looks really dated IMO...
it's " Retro" bro.... !
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      08-02-2017, 04:28 PM   #70
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it's " Retro" bro.... !
Retro tech is only cool if you're Nintendo.

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      08-02-2017, 04:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
German mags want to keep that idea of German Superiority. Just like Japanese mag/reviewers. And Italians---you think that they would even talk about all the things wrong with the Giulia? And American mags as well. Even though all the major American mags and car enthusiast reviewers have been accused of shilling for BMW, they still tend to always talk about the "bang for the buck" in one sentence, and cheap materials in another, when talking about American performance cars. About the only truly middle ground reviews you will get are from the British. Probably one reason is because most of their major car companies are owned by foreign companies. And another is probably because they know how to give "semi" unbiased reviews.
As I posted previously, I don't believe the GT350R is available in Europe at all, hence why they did (could) not use it for comparison...

And if I am not mistaken, even the base GT350 needs to be procured through a private importer and not through Ford Europe. So maybe the track pack on the GT350 is not even available either.
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      08-02-2017, 05:00 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by mcc3456 View Post
It's not that odd when it is a biased german magazine seeking a car they know the CS can beat.
See post above.
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      08-02-2017, 06:38 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As I posted previously, I don't believe the GT350R is available in Europe at all, hence why they did (could) not use it for comparison...

And if I am not mistaken, even the base GT350 needs to be procured through a private importer and not through Ford Europe. So maybe the track pack on the GT350 is not even available either.
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
See post above.
A number of US service members have them in Germany. I know this through the Mustang forums and IIRC they can get whatever version they want just like here. I know for sure there are track packs etc and 17s that have both packages. I'm not sure about the R, but it wouldn't surprise me that there wasn't a couple over there.
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      08-02-2017, 09:13 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
A number of US service members have them in Germany. I know this through the Mustang forums and IIRC they can get whatever version they want just like here. I know for sure there are track packs etc and 17s that have both packages. I'm not sure about the R, but it wouldn't surprise me that there wasn't a couple over there.
If only US military can get them, it sure does not make it readily available to the European market. If you go on any Ford Europe website, you will not find the GT350 nor the GT350R.

The GT350 can be had in Europe through GeigerCars. Looking at their site, they do indeed have examples with the track pack for sale. But I don't believe they import the GT350R.
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      08-02-2017, 09:33 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
If only US military can get them, it sure does not make it readily available to the European market. If you go on any Ford Europe website, you will not find the GT350 nor the GT350R.

The GT350 can be had in Europe through GeigerCars. Looking at their site, they do indeed have examples with the track pack for sale. But I don't believe they import the GT350R.
I agree that there certainly are not many of them over there, but they are there mainly via US military personal and however that works to import them. That was my only point.

Strange or ironically the base is the most rare of all of the GT350 variants. Even much more so than the R and they got somebody over there to agree to let them use it in this test.
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      08-03-2017, 01:14 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Quick summary:

- M4 CS has minimum HP increase over the standard M4, power alone does not justify the expense over the M4.

- Weight reduction, though it has CF rear diffuser and the CF bonnet, the CS was just 6Kg lighter than the standard M4 SA tested previously.

- However, the CS conceals its weight very well, the tuning of the chassis such as differential lock and the ABS have been specially adapted to the CS, as the result, the CS will lap the Hockenheim course at 1.11.0 in hot conditions, with a lower temperature, it could have be in the 1.10s.

- M4 CS is the most rounded M4 so far in SA's opinion, not so focused like the M4 GTS, but noticeably better than the standard M4, it has a chance to become a future classic.
What is the purpose. To show that the Rustang got spanked by a massive margin? Its not fair. You'd be better off comparing a GTR. Their not that quick anymore. LOL
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      08-03-2017, 10:29 AM   #77
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You're starting to sound a bit like a fanboy. I get you have a bias and I do as well but don't dismiss the achievement of this mustang. I would not call the M4 a great car. I am not sure bmw makes great cars anymore. They make a good car. But great was the e46 M3 when it debuted in late 2000. Similar with the e39 m5 once the fastest 4dr sedan on the planet.

I actually get this comparison and I think these are two cars people would actually consider cross shopping. That said the build quality in all ford's is quite bad. They also have a tendency to not rust proof most of the chassis parts for whatever reason. The body pinch welds aren't sealed either. Lots of corners cut to stay at 55K
The M4 *is* a great car. Problem is, USDM manufacturers are making great cars too. The E39 M5/E46 M3 had virtually no domestic competitors, so of course it was a great car; it had barely had a 'good' car to be compared against: the C6 Z06. Barely anyone cross-shopped an E46/E39 M to a Corvette though. Now, anyone with a brain would be downright foolish to not look at a Corvette or any other Alpha platform GM car, or Ford Mustang variant.

I drove a GT350 last week and was overly impressed with it. So much that I didn't feel so great sitting in my ZCP M4 shortly after. Ford is currently making M engines better than M. The GT350 is a great car, just with a different personality than the M4.

Imagine how great the M2 would be if they put an updated 2017 S54-based engine in it with 360hp? It would blow minds.
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      08-03-2017, 10:49 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
You're starting to sound a bit like a fanboy. I get you have a bias and I do as well but don't dismiss the achievement of this mustang. I would not call the M4 a great car. I am not sure bmw makes great cars anymore. They make a good car. But great was the e46 M3 when it debuted in late 2000. Similar with the e39 m5 once the fastest 4dr sedan on the planet.

I actually get this comparison and I think these are two cars people would actually consider cross shopping. That said the build quality in all ford's is quite bad. They also have a tendency to not rust proof most of the chassis parts for whatever reason. The body pinch welds aren't sealed either. Lots of corners cut to stay at 55K
The M4 *is* a great car. Problem is, USDM manufacturers are making great cars too. The E39 M5/E46 M3 had virtually no domestic competitors, so of course it was a great car; it had barely had a 'good' car to be compared against: the C6 Z06. Barely anyone cross-shopped an E46/E39 M to a Corvette though. Now, anyone with a brain would be downright foolish to not look at a Corvette or any other Alpha platform GM car, or Ford Mustang variant.

I drove a GT350 last week and was overly impressed with it. So much that I didn't feel so great sitting in my ZCP M4 shortly after. Ford is currently making M engines better than M. The GT350 is a great car, just with a different personality than the M4.

Imagine how great the M2 would be if they put an updated 2017 S54-based engine in it with 360hp? It would blow minds.
We are saying the same thing in the way that it was great by comparison.

And yes I agree. That would blow minds. It's a shame about the turbo era which is founded on a bunch of misinformation. Turbo motors produce just as much if not more emissions as high strung NA motors when driven by normal human beings. M division had stated that NA motors had a lot of R&D left in them at the time of the s65 release.

Funny you mention your experience with the mustang. When I owned my e92 m3 I drove a boss 302. I didn't expect to have the amount of fun I had in it. So much fun that I really didn't enjoy getting back in the e92.
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      08-03-2017, 12:33 PM   #79
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Interesting. I suspect most of you have never driven a GT 350. I have had 3 gen of M3, and have been a long time BMW guy. Plenty of M track time including the Ring. I bought the GT 350 instead of the new M4 and could not be happier. The look, the steering, the brakes, and the engine!! The sound at 8250 rpm is insane. The M4 sound is lame in comparison. Sure the interior is not as polished, but it is not that bad. This guy maybe can't drive a manual transmission, because all the tested numbers previously are way better than this. Go look up R Pobst's review of the GT 350! For 60k which is what mine cost it is a way better option than an 82k M4! You can have the overweight BMW's with sound pumped through the stereo. The Shelby is a bit raw, but the best GT bargain out there. And I daily drive mine with no issues whatsoever, other than people staring and taking pictures!!
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      08-03-2017, 01:56 PM   #80
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BMW, Porsche, etc do not typically make drastic changes to their model lines, even at lci, unlike Mercedes or Chevy or Ford, etc. One result of this is greater resale value (especially Porsche), thus allowing manuf (though not Porsche) to lower lease payments overall. Having owned 2 pre LCI versions of MB/AMG products, I know first hand how bad big changes result in accelerated depreciation. Secondary markets for the m3 has been excellent at least in Socal, where used cars are few and move very quickly. I've been monitoring used markets for m3's, corvettes, camaro's, ats-v, etc for months, also see resale posts/lease return threads from members on this forum. Ford's drastic changes with the new 2018 Mustangs will help Ford with sales, but will most likely hurt earlier owners of the same gen.

Another point, people here are comparing the last NA v8's vs new FI engines. They are not the same, and most people rightfully love their NA motors. I had a wonderful 6.2 V8 on my C63, sounded great, but got 14 MPG. Now, I am getting better performance, more usable torque on the street and 19 MPG on a turbo I6. Same hard driving, same hwy/st mix. Other than sound, no complaints, especially considering the FI revs to 7.5k.

Ford, like everyone else is going the same direction, see FI on new Raptor replacing the 6.2, see Ford new GT ecotec v6 on their halo car.
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      08-03-2017, 02:48 PM   #81
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You can have the overweight BMW's
Isn't the GT350 like 200 lbs heavier than the M3/4?
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      08-03-2017, 03:02 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
We are saying the same thing in the way that it was great by comparison.

And yes I agree. That would blow minds. It's a shame about the turbo era which is founded on a bunch of misinformation. Turbo motors produce just as much if not more emissions as high strung NA motors when driven by normal human beings. M division had stated that NA motors had a lot of R&D left in them at the time of the s65 release.

Funny you mention your experience with the mustang. When I owned my e92 m3 I drove a boss 302. I didn't expect to have the amount of fun I had in it. So much fun that I really didn't enjoy getting back in the e92.
Completely agree on the emissions front - this lie is sold on the MPG side as well - I sometimes get worse gas mileage in my ZCP F80 than I did in my 981 CS. If you drive an ICE hard, you're not going to have good mileage - that's just the way it is.

I've never achieved better than a 17 MPG average in the M3. My 2 year average in the 981 was around 16 or 17. Just sayin.
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      08-03-2017, 03:12 PM   #83
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Completely agree on the emissions front - this lie is sold on the MPG side as well - I sometimes get worse gas mileage in my ZCP F80 than I did in my 981 CS. If you drive an ICE hard, you're not going to have good mileage - that's just the way it is.

I've never achieved better than a 17 MPG average in the M3. My 2 year average in the 981 was around 16 or 17. Just sayin.
You are comparing a 3.4 liter NA vs a 3.0 liter FI. The differences will be slight when driven hard, especially when the 3.4 has a lighter load in weight to pull around.

A better comparison would be the 2.5 liter 4 that Porsche replaced on your car vs the 3.4. I would also emphasize the increase in performance numbers compared to the 2 engines as well, people don't understand that you get both better MPG and better performance numbers in normal driving.

Also, mpg/emissions tests are conducted with "regular" driving, what most people do on the streets. If both are on the track, the MPG is going to be stupid low for both cars. If the goal is to reduce overall emissions and increase mpg, FI makes a huge difference.
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      08-03-2017, 03:20 PM   #84
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Imagine how great the M2 would be if they put an updated 2017 S54-based engine in it with 360hp? It would blow minds.
No it would not.

For various reasons, it is not possible to compare power ratings of NA and modern FI engine for performance. For instance, an S54 based engine with 360hp is essentially the E46 M3 CSL engine, and the N55 powered M2 uterly trumps it in terms of acceleration.
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      08-03-2017, 07:15 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by SCBMW02 View Post
Interesting. I suspect most of you have never driven a GT 350. I have had 3 gen of M3, and have been a long time BMW guy. Plenty of M track time including the Ring. I bought the GT 350 instead of the new M4 and could not be happier. The look, the steering, the brakes, and the engine!! The sound at 8250 rpm is insane. The M4 sound is lame in comparison. Sure the interior is not as polished, but it is not that bad. This guy maybe can't drive a manual transmission, because all the tested numbers previously are way better than this. Go look up R Pobst's review of the GT 350! For 60k which is what mine cost it is a way better option than an 82k M4! You can have the overweight BMW's with sound pumped through the stereo. The Shelby is a bit raw, but the best GT bargain out there. And I daily drive mine with no issues whatsoever, other than people staring and taking pictures!!
They are great cars. Either people don't want them to be because they're "just a Ford" or because they need to justify why they spent $15k more. I'm a BMW guy, but I'm also a car guy in general. Never cared much for Ford, but they've been making some really cool things for us car guys.

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No it would not.

For various reasons, it is not possible to compare power ratings of NA and modern FI engine for performance. For instance, an S54 based engine with 360hp is essentially the E46 M3 CSL engine, and the N55 powered M2 uterly trumps it in terms of acceleration.
Yes it absolutely would. Imagine the C&D reviews saying how BMW got back to it's roots! lol. I'd take 360hp from an N/A I6 screaming towards 8K RPM (ahem, have you HEARD CSL airbox intake noises? Most glorious sounds in the world) any and every single day over the N55 with it's torque.

When was the last time you achieved your advertised/tested 0-60? 0-60 times are only good for C&D comparisons & the 17 year olds who read them.

The difference between the current M2 and decade old CSL is only 2-3 tenths of a second. I wouldn't call that trumping the CSL, and I'd still take that hit to have a good ole screaming N/A I6 under the hood. Hell, take the turbos off the S55 and throw that in there. The S55 is eerily similar to that of the S54 anyway.
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      08-03-2017, 07:54 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
looking forward to the day when I can buy a BMW that doesn't conceal its weight very well.. and instead simply is lightweight.
Considering it's substantially lighter than anything in it's class, I'm thankful they at least accomplished that.
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      08-03-2017, 08:33 PM   #87
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Owned a GT350.... great car but it lacks build quality. Terrible paint, cheap plastics. Imagine if Germans built something like the GT350 at $80-$90k price point....
They do, it's called the GT3 and it's $160,000, not $100k.

The idea that some sucker would pay $100k+ for a tarted-up M3 that can barely keep pace with a $55k Mustang is astonishing. Especially when $100k gets you into a pretty nice used 991.
Not even close buddy. Lol. I am talking about NA V8, front engine, RWD, manual, 4 seat coupe with German build quality.
They do, it's called an e92, take the money you save and throw in some forged internals and a blower, 550-660 hp all day.

Also, I think the fact the M4 has a DCT and the GT350 is a manual should be taken into consideration for drag and lap times.
Holy crap. I give up. They don't make E92 M3 anymore and it's slowwww... I am not talking about modding either. New M4/M3 is a great car. Too few understand it.
You're starting to sound a bit like a fanboy. I get you have a bias and I do as well but don't dismiss the achievement of this mustang. I would not call the M4 a great car. I am not sure bmw makes great cars anymore. They make a good car. But great was the e46 M3 when it debuted in late 2000. Similar with the e39 m5 once the fastest 4dr sedan on the planet.

I actually get this comparison and I think these are two cars people would actually consider cross shopping. That said the build quality in all ford's is quite bad. They also have a tendency to not rust proof most of the chassis parts for whatever reason. The body pinch welds aren't sealed either. Lots of corners cut to stay at 55K
Hah! A fan boy... I love this word. Let me get this straight, just because I called the new M3/M4 great cars, I am now a fan boy.

See this picture, 3 different car brands... I give credit where it's due. I never said that GT350 was a bad car, I said it has terrible build quality.
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      08-03-2017, 08:41 PM   #88
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I too drove a GT350. I'm in the process of selling my M3 to get one. The only thing holding me back is the resale value of the M3 which is beyond abysmal. As a guy who buys used cars, drives them for a year or two and sells them, I have never taken a bath on a car like I have this M3. Cannot find a dealership anywhere near me willing to offer more than 49k for my fully-optioned and pristine 2015.
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