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      05-22-2014, 10:59 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
I disagree with you. Most cars would qualify as GT cars.

When you talk about the GT3, the 458 Speciale, and the likes of those, yes, they are sports/exotics but the regular version of them are GT cars...they just happen to be some of the best cars in the world.
Just because it happens to have two barely usable back seats doesn't mean it's a GT car and not a sports car. Very few people would consider any 911 model more a GT than sports car, to make an excuse otherwise is just to win comparisons with actual GT type cars.
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      05-22-2014, 11:00 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Keto
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Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
I disagree with the comments that the M4/M3 are just fast sedans and the M4 is a sedan with the doors cut off. The e30 and e46 didn't even have sedan versions. The M3 has always been a two door sports coupe that sometimes has an extra two doors added. The excuse that the M cars are just fast daily drivers or fast sedans with doors cut off is ridiculous. BMW decided to go the way of profits and M Division became about marketing instead of Motorsport and everyone knows. BMW is the only manufacturer making grand tourers while everyone else is making the most raw and performance oriented sports cars ever. When the best attributes of M Divisions halo sports car is that it's a good daily driver and can fit groceries and kids easily then you know M is "Motorsport" in name only. There are plenty of non-M high torque and good mpg grocery getters that can still be fun on the track occasionally and BMW could have kept M cars as actual sports car.
And you just bought your 2nd heavy E92M3. You must HATE THOSE COMPROMISES. Since they have been in place for some time.

What M3 competitor is "raw"? The Merc with the really nice auto transmission?

Another classic case of buyer's remorse.
Buyers remorse?! I specifically got on the list for my M3 and did euro delivery because I wanted this car despite knowing about the M4. My personal vehicle has nothing to do with the M brand being diluted.

As for this generation of cars there is the track Mustangs, track Camaros, Z06/ZR1, Cayman GTS, etc not to mention a base GTR is the same price as an M4 with options and AMG C class will have an even sportier S version and most people cross shop many of these cars while the only sportier version of the M4 will be special edition $5k paint job lol. M stands for marketing and everyone knows. I'm quite the M fan given I walk around in M hats, shirts, key chains, wallets, and it's not trolling or buyers remorse to want the Motorsport division of BMW to make actual Motorsport cars.
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      05-22-2014, 11:04 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallshortguy View Post
Just because it happens to have two barely usable back seats doesn't mean it's a GT car and not a sports car. Very few people would consider any 911 model more a GT than sports car, to make an excuse otherwise is just to win comparisons with actual GT type cars.
You can argue either way. And those back seats arent useless.

A lot of people also consider the M3/4 to be sports cars...and I would consider them more sports car/sedan than I would GT car. Again, can be argued either way.

Last edited by Wolfinwolfsclothing; 05-22-2014 at 11:09 AM..
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      05-22-2014, 11:30 AM   #114
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I don't know any cars othen than a C63 and an RS4 that can be legitimately compared to the M3. Certainly nothing American nor Japanese... Infiniti claims to be making something to compete but I haven't seen it. You are all talking about cars of way diffefent classes than the M3. Some are American pony cars, some are track monsters, some are all out sportscars none of which can be compared to an M3 as it is a GT / Luxo sports tourer.
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      05-22-2014, 11:45 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I don't know any cars othen than a C63 and an RS4 that can be legitimately compared to the M3. Certainly nothing American nor Japanese...
???

Lexus IS-F
Cadillac ATS-V
Jaguar XER-S
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      05-22-2014, 11:48 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
???

Lexus IS-F
Cadillac ATS-V
Jaguar XER-S
You're right I missed the ISF but that car is very outdated now. ATS-V nor the JAG isn't even out yet so nothing to compare.
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      05-22-2014, 12:09 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by ChesterM4 View Post
Hmm but surely the best attribute is that this is THE fastest M3 ever 0-60 likely 3.7s!! All reviews say it handles superbly too, but that it doesn'tsound quite as great as the V8 previous engine.

So for being the fastest straight line and track M3 ever, this car and BMW M division have sold out? I feel the opposite they are to be commended for managing to combine staggering performance with improved efficiency and emissions that keeps my tax and fuel costs down.

Sorry if I'm late to the party and missing your point, I get that it's not as emotional for some but it's a much faster package overall and we're accusing it of not being a sports car anymore
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      05-22-2014, 12:30 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
You're right I missed the ISF but that car is very outdated now. ATS-V nor the JAG isn't even out yet so nothing to compare.
Yep. The XE-R, C63, and Infiniti Q50 "R" all have potential to throw a big punch. Even the ATS-V and RS4 sedan (if they build it) still have a chance to surprise. A new IS-F (if they buld one) is probably the least likely to do any damage, but even that might be unfair of me at this early date.

Stiff competition. M3 is likely to lose its fair share of comparison test battles. But for right now, it sits on top. And as for 'Ring times, well we've learned from the past that the faster car on paper or even in a drag race isn't necessarily going to excel on the 'Ring.
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      05-22-2014, 01:04 PM   #119
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Ummm, look both the 911s and the M3/4 are amazing wonderful fantastic cars. Of course the Porsche excels in many regards, and of course the M is more practical and less expensive. The Jaguar is arguably more beautiful. I would be happy with any of them, but the M3 fits my needs for a sedan. That it is even considered as a serious competitor to the 911 is awesome.
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      05-22-2014, 04:44 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
Ummm, look both the 911s and the M3/4 are amazing wonderful fantastic cars. Of course the Porsche excels in many regards, and of course the M is more practical and less expensive. The Jaguar is arguably more beautiful. I would be happy with any of them, but the M3 fits my needs for a sedan. That it is even considered as a serious competitor to the 911 is awesome.
Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not a fan of the Jags looks but love the looks of nearly every Porsche and am very happy with the looks of the new M3/4 and cost and practically aspects makes the M3 the clear winner for my upcoming purchase as well
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      05-23-2014, 01:46 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Thanks Boss.

7.50 is right in line with what many of us predicted. The future "ZCP" will be deep into 7.4x.


From BMW blog
Although the M3 GTS is slightly quicker in a straight line than the E46 CSL, the lap times around the Nurburgring are surprisingly close. According to FastLaps.com, the 450 hp GTS is faster than the 360 hp CSL by a mere 2 seconds. 7:50 vs 7:48.

So basically the new M3 is as hast as the E90 GTS?
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      05-23-2014, 02:03 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastoys View Post
From BMW blog
Although the M3 GTS is slightly quicker in a straight line than the E46 CSL, the lap times around the Nurburgring are surprisingly close. According to FastLaps.com, the 450 hp GTS is faster than the 360 hp CSL by a mere 2 seconds. 7:50 vs 7:48.

So basically the new M3 is as hast as the E90 GTS?
As I said before:
Quote:
And as for the M3 GTS Supertest must be said very clearly that SPORTAUTO assumes, that an faster Supertest NOS round with the M3 GTS would have been possible ... only settings would have to be made ​​to the suspension, which was not set optimal from BMW for driving on the Nordschleife - but such adjustments contradict the Supertest test criteria !!!
And again the 7.50min is until today only the time the 2002 M3 CSL reach on the NOS in his "Supertest" and has nothing to do with the F8xM3/M4.

Lets wait until June 13th. and see what happens !
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      05-23-2014, 12:25 PM   #123
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Good article. A real mixed bag though, consistent with other reviews. So much for the idea there will be no turbo lag.

My predictions for N'Ring lap times were:

Dec 2010: 7:53-7:58
May 2013 (updated): Low 7:5X

Oh no, wait, "you can't get this correct before the testing"... Or maybe "you have to drive the car personally also to get a time or good guess"... Whatever.
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      05-23-2014, 03:33 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good article. A real mixed bag though, consistent with other reviews. So much for the idea there will be no turbo lag.

My predictions for N'Ring lap times were:

Dec 2010: 7:53-7:58
May 2013 (updated): Low 7:5X

Oh no, wait, "you can't get this correct before the testing"... Or maybe "you have to drive the car personally also to get a time or good guess"... Whatever.
Very true...some good, some bad. The steering (lack of feel) and engine comments you knew were on the horizon.

I believe I also said at best low 7:5x's and more likely mid to high 7s (i.e 7:55-7:58).
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      05-24-2014, 04:32 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good article. A real mixed bag though, consistent with other reviews. So much for the idea there will be no turbo lag.

My predictions for N'Ring lap times were:

Dec 2010: 7:53-7:58
May 2013 (updated): Low 7:5X

Oh no, wait, "you can't get this correct before the testing"... Or maybe "you have to drive the car personally also to get a time or good guess"... Whatever.
Simulation can do amazing stuff. I guess what some have argued against was that "there is no need to drive the car to know how it feels". There is a reason why race teams and manufacturers actually spend loads of time testing, not just doing simulations at the factory The drivers input on how the car reacts and how it feels is something I'm not aware simulation has eradicated just yet

But yes, a race team will have a fairly accurate estimate of what time their car will do on each circuit they race at, based on simulations. But they still have to do practice sessions to dial in the car and get the drivers feedback on how the car feels and reacts.
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      05-24-2014, 10:10 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Simulation can do amazing stuff. I guess what some have argued against was that "there is no need to drive the car to know how it feels". There is a reason why race teams and manufacturers actually spend loads of time testing, not just doing simulations at the factory The drivers input on how the car reacts and how it feels is something I'm not aware simulation has eradicated just yet

But yes, a race team will have a fairly accurate estimate of what time their car will do on each circuit they race at, based on simulations. But they still have to do practice sessions to dial in the car and get the drivers feedback on how the car feels and reacts.
Obviously because drag racing type of performance simulation is substantially more accurate than anything involving on and off throttle, braking and corners...

Also it's worth noting, that although a test driver is required a significant portion of what is learned in testing is through high end data acquisition which provides insights and guides changes to set up (i.e. conclusions) typically not discernable by many test drivers...

My good N'Ring estimates were about 20% based on simulation (lap time vs. power to weight regression), 40% estimating how many standard deviations better than that regression the M4 would come in at (i.e. how much the car would overperform the model) and about 40% on an observation of competitors...
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Last edited by swamp2; 05-24-2014 at 10:17 PM..
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      05-26-2014, 05:16 AM   #127
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Knowing that HvS doesn´t like the handling (tyres and engine characteristic wise!) of the F30 Alpine B3 with its 430hp 3.0ltr.I6 turbo engine and its 20" Michelin PSS on track and reached only an time of 8.14min in the NOS Supertest ... I guess for the new M4 an Supertest NOS time of between 7.53 and 7.58min, simply because the M4 is in the same hp-class, has the same engine configuration and the same tyres ... ~ 20sec faster, only because its much stiffer chassis, better suspension and less weight !!!
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      06-03-2014, 06:09 AM   #128
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F80 M3 Sedan out-Runs Ferrari F430 at the Nordschleife?

That's what the numbers say. 7:50 BMW vs. 7:55 F430. I'm stunned. I've driven an F430 and it is an absolute beast. Am I delusional or is this real?
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      06-03-2014, 06:20 AM   #129
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it is real, bear in mind Michelin PSS are very good tires not available when F430 set its time
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      06-03-2014, 06:35 AM   #130
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That's impressive.
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      06-05-2014, 12:43 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
That's what the numbers say. 7:50 BMW vs. 7:55 F430. I'm stunned. I've driven an F430 and it is an absolute beast. Am I delusional or is this real?
Welcome to progress. It's both surprising and not. I recall the excitement when I realized that the current M3 is quite on par on straights and track with the F360. I posted about that here multiple times. That car is fast too. Now you can best your buddy in his F430 with two kiddie seats in the back of your 4 door sedan...

That being said, don't count on winning any straight line contests vs. the Ferrari it does make more power (even knowing the M4 is around 450 hp) and weighs less. Also, if one were to mount up the same exact tire on the M4, Pilot Super Sport (replacing the P Zero Corsa) in the appropriate size for the F430, I expect the lap time advantage (likely since we don't have an official one yet) would disappear.

Also don't underestimate the emotional aspect of a car. A slower lap in an F430 will, IMHO, never be matched for thrill by a slightly faster lap in an F8X M3/4.
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