Most reliable 650 whp turbos?

[Anonymoose]

For what it’s worth my car did 1:59 on 200tw at VIR with a ton of consistent 2:00 flat. Sd card ended up running out of space.




On full race turbos in 89 degree ambient in June.

https://youtu.be/mppB3Rv0R9w?feature=shared

That Camaro is a Hendrick time attack that’s 3k lbs/650hp and on Michelin slicks

[sdhasher21]

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

For what it’s worth my car did 1:59 on 200tw at VIR with a ton of consistent 2:00 flat. Sd card ended up running out of space.
On full race turbos in 89 degree ambient in June.

How did the power band feel compared to oem turbos when you first got them?

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by sdhasher21

How did the power band feel compared to oem turbos when you first got them?

Oem turbos were not consistent at all. After 4.5k they dropped off. The full race pulls all the way to redline. The power band is extremely reliable. I can put power down on the track easy.

[N44RP]

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Oem turbos were not consistent at all. After 4.5k they dropped off. The full race pulls all the way to redline. The power band is extremely reliable. I can put power down on the track easy.

Any idea what you picked up over stock on 93 octane?

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by N44RP

Any idea what you picked up over stock on 93 octane?

Sadly I don’t. They didn’t have have a shop dyno when all the work was done. If you’re tracking the I’d highly recommend the full race or Mosselmans. The mosselmans have a bigger ceiling with proper fuel.

I just have the precision raceworks stage 3 brushless and eu5 injectors. I don’t have the dorch lift kit.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The mosselmans have a bigger ceiling with proper fuel.

Have you verified it to affirm this?

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Have you verified it to affirm this?

OG Shark can chime in here as he's ran the full race and the Mosselmans on 3 different f8x platforms.

[OG Shark]

We are a dealer for both Full Race and Mosselman - just fyi for transparency.

I love the Full Race turbos on the track. They make solid power with a good spooling characteristics and when tuned properly (Bend Calibration) they have excellent power delivery. The cars we have run them on have been very fast around the track. They make for a very solid improvement over the oem turbos. The cars are still easy to manage but pull extremely hard. Can see solid acceleration on this video (the back straight starts around 1:07) - this is E65 and with ambient at the time pushing 90*F. Car also has some decent aero on it adding some noticeable resistance on the top end. With decent launches down the straight I would subsequently hit right at 164 vmax still in this heat (I really botched the exit of 11 in this video and killed that run).

The Mosselmans have so far shown to have excellent potential but I need to get a lot more seat time and data with them before finalizing my thoughts vs the Full Race. Definitely like what I see so far though. The M4 we have had them on for awhile is not a good comparison though with our Full Race setups - it has a built motor and PI so we are able to push the Mosselmans closer to their limit than we have had with the FR on stock motors. However we have recently installed a set of Mosselmans on a stock motor with the typical setup of Precision Raceworks lpfp, Dorch lift kit, and EU5s pushing out to full E85. This setup is very strong but I haven't been able to get the car out on track to really get a feel for where the car is yet. We are getting close though and should start seeing track time within the next couple of weeks. The power is there but the main thing I want to focus on is how well it puts it down. After we get through this testing and Super Lap Battle in March I do plan to do a better same car comparison of the two though. Will have better data to use as a comparison at that time.

[sly1types]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

We are a dealer for both Full Race and Mosselman - just fyi for transparency.

I love the Full Race turbos on the track. They make solid power with a good spooling characteristics and when tuned properly (Bend Calibration) they have excellent power delivery. The cars we have run them on have been very fast around the track. They make for a very solid improvement over the oem turbos. The cars are still easy to manage but pull extremely hard. Can see solid acceleration on this video (the back straight starts around 1:07) - this is E65 and with ambient at the time pushing 90*F. Car also has some decent aero on it adding some noticeable resistance on the top end. With decent launches down the straight I would subsequently hit right at 164 vmax still in this heat (I really botched the exit of 11 in this video and killed that run).

The Mosselmans have so far shown to have excellent potential but I need to get a lot more seat time and data with them before finalizing my thoughts vs the Full Race. Definitely like what I see so far though. The M4 we have had them on for awhile is not a good comparison though with our Full Race setups - it has a built motor and PI so we are able to push the Mosselmans closer to their limit than we have had with the FR on stock motors. However we have recently installed a set of Mosselmans on a stock motor with the typical setup of Precision Raceworks lpfp, Dorch lift kit, and EU5s pushing out to full E85. This setup is very strong but I haven't been able to get the car out on track to really get a feel for where the car is yet. We are getting close though and should start seeing track time within the next couple of weeks. The power is there but the main thing I want to focus on is how well it puts it down. After we get through this testing and Super Lap Battle in March I do plan to do a better same car comparison of the two though. Will have better data to use as a comparison at that time.

Great info! Are you on street tires? Which ones and sizes? How's was the spool on the built motor/mosselman car? I'm more worried about the spool. I run 305 square Pirelli DH takes offs, so if traction is an issue i would just turn them down closer to the 600 wheel mark for the track?

I'm excited to hear your thoughts on the mosselmans with the supporting fuel mods as thats what i'm thinking...

What kind of power do you think you making on the full race/ethanol setup?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

We are a dealer for both Full Race and Mosselman - just fyi for transparency.

I love the Full Race turbos on the track. They make solid power with a good spooling characteristics and when tuned properly (Bend Calibration) they have excellent power delivery. The cars we have run them on have been very fast around the track. They make for a very solid improvement over the oem turbos. The cars are still easy to manage but pull extremely hard. Can see solid acceleration on this video (the back straight starts around 1:07) - this is E65 and with ambient at the time pushing 90*F. Car also has some decent aero on it adding some noticeable resistance on the top end. With decent launches down the straight I would subsequently hit right at 164 vmax still in this heat (I really botched the exit of 11 in this video and killed that run).


The Mosselmans have so far shown to have excellent potential but I need to get a lot more seat time and data with them before finalizing my thoughts vs the Full Race. Definitely like what I see so far though. The M4 we have had them on for awhile is not a good comparison though with our Full Race setups - it has a built motor and PI so we are able to push the Mosselmans closer to their limit than we have had with the FR on stock motors. However we have recently installed a set of Mosselmans on a stock motor with the typical setup of Precision Raceworks lpfp, Dorch lift kit, and EU5s pushing out to full E85. This setup is very strong but I haven't been able to get the car out on track to really get a feel for where the car is yet. We are getting close though and should start seeing track time within the next couple of weeks. The power is there but the main thing I want to focus on is how well it puts it down. After we get through this testing and Super Lap Battle in March I do plan to do a better same car comparison of the two though. Will have better data to use as a comparison at that time.

Looks forward for your final review and comparison

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by sly1types

Great info! Are you on street tires? I'm excited to hear your thoughts on the mosselmans with the supporting fuel mods.

What kind of power do you think you making on the full race/ethanol setup?

Pirelli DH slicks in that video. Will be on Nankang CRS at SLB though. In that video very much in line with what Anonymoose dyno'd at (per my unscientific butt dyno). It was noticeably stronger than our stock turbo track tune we previously dyno'd at 500whp.

Can say so far the Mosselmans are very strong and on a lighter (relative of course) car and zero aero they are a bit of fun. With our previous car on the Full Race though I can say that not very many cars could keep up with us on the straight.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Pirelli DH slicks in that video. Will be on Nankang CRS at SLB though. In that video very much in line with what Anonymoose dyno'd at (per my unscientific butt dyno). It was noticeably stronger than our stock turbo track tune we previously dyno'd at 500whp.

Can say so far the Mosselmans are very strong and on a lighter (relative of course) car and zero aero they are a bit of fun. With our previous car on the Full Race though I can say that not very many cars could keep up with us on the straight.

You have to compare 2 equal settings, you cannot compare a complete e85 with an e65, I am 100% sure that MHI produces the same power as Mosselmans under the same conditions.

I have tried several sizes and I have seen no difference in final power on the track, or in top speed on the straights.

Mosselman has not invented anything, they do not have access to better parts for their turbos than other manufacturers.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Track/S

You have to compare 2 equal settings, you cannot compare a complete e85 with an e65, I am 100% sure that MHI produces the same power as Mosselmans under the same conditions.

I have tried several sizes and I have seen no difference in final power on the track, or in top speed on the straights.

Mosselman has not invented anything, they do not have access to better parts for their turbos than other manufacturers.

Never said I was going to compare E65 to E85 - obviously that makes a big difference. Going to be swapping turbos on the same car while trying to keep the variables as close as possible. Obviously not perfect world testing but will be sufficient for my purposes and can give us a heck of a read for ours and our customer's cars. The test car in question has the Precision Raceworks stage 3 brushless lpfp, dorch lift kit, EU5s, and tuned by Bend Calibration. Will be working with them during the testing too to verify each setup is being fully utilized. The motor is still stock and lots more going on with the car but that gives you a general idea of what limitations are that we are working with. Again I cannot control all factors but will certainly try our best to limit the delta in the variables as much as possible. Also know that I am a big fan of the Full Race turbos - they have served us very, very well so far. And if the Full Race look to still have a decent amount more left on the table after hitting these fueling limits might throw the on the car with the built motor, PI, & Mosselmans to keep the comparison going. That's more of a long shot though as our built motor cars are destined for much more power than what the MHI based turbos can provide so not much of a reason to keep pushing into that range.

What are you referring to when you say MHI? Stock turbo, Full Race, Mosselman...? When you say you have tried several what have you tried and in what configurations? If you have already run the Full Race and the Mosselman out to their peak potential under the same conditions please share - very pertinent to this thread!

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

What are you referring to when you say MHI? Stock turbo, Full Race, Mosselman...? When you say you have tried several what have you tried and in what configurations? If you have already run the Full Race and the Mosselman out to their peak potential under the same conditions please share - very pertinent to this thread!

I mean the ones sold by full race, this company does not make hybrid turbos, it uses mhi turbos under full race name


Those of you who are in the US have not tried anything other than Pure Turbo and now with Mosselmans, which is a much smaller version than Pure, you think it is the best, there is life beyond those 2 brands



I am a turbo geek and I also have clients who use them. When Mosselman started selling hybrid turbos I had already been making them for years, so what Mosselmans sells is nothing special.



I have tried several sizes, including the version offered by Mosselman, that has more lag than the version I am using now, and they do not produce more power.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I mean the ones sold by full race, this company does not make hybrid turbos, it uses mhi turbos under full race name


Those of you who are in the US have not tried anything other than Pure Turbo and now with Mosselmans, which is a much smaller version than Pure, you think it is the best, there is life beyond those 2 brands



I am a turbo geek and I also have clients who use them. When Mosselman started selling hybrid turbos I had already been making them for years, so what Mosselmans sells is nothing special.



I have tried several sizes, including the version offered by Mosselman, that has more lag than the version I am using now, and they do not produce more power.

Just so we are clear - I agree that the Full Race turbos are a good choice. We have run them on multiple cars and they have performed very well. In the power range that the OP is asking about they are absolutely worth looking at. Their spooling characteristics and power delivery (with a good tuner) are excellent. So let the record show I am pro-Full Race. Which I am guessing is a good thing since I am a dealer for them (and the very reason I became a dealer for them after first testing them out)... No one is saying that Pure and Mosselman are the only choices. And believe it or not there are people in the US that have tried other turbos besides those two. And even though you have tried everything years ago does not mean others should not try and see how the different options work out for them.

[Rob@RB]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I mean the ones sold by full race, this company does not make hybrid turbos, it uses mhi turbos under full race name. I am a turbo geek and I also have clients who use them.

20 year turbo geek here and I know that you and I have been through this before, but I am still not sold on them being 100% MHI ground up built units.

Main reason being I do not know of a MHI wheel that would actually fit to an acceptable level to MHI, unless MHI has made a new custom wheel or cast a new S55 turbine housing for this specific "large wheel" application anyway? My experience with machining the OE S55 housings are that TD04HL fits absolutely terrible and TD04L not so great either, and if they are not good enough for me surely they are not good enough for MHI (I'd absolutely not use either).

Secondarily is that MHI locking themselves into some exclusivity deal also seems a bit odd.

Lastly I'd think MHI would've considered a good inlet solution to match their offerings, knowing that the OE inlet stuff is about 5mm too small for their product.

Not to say any of the options discussed are bad (doesn't have to be MHI specifically to be great), they all seem to be very good quality built solutions, and it is always nice to have some options.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Rob@RB

20 year turbo geek here and I know that you and I have been through this before, but I am still not sold on them being 100% MHI ground up built units.

Main reason being I do not know of a MHI wheel that would actually fit to an acceptable level to MHI, unless MHI has made a new custom wheel or cast a new S55 turbine housing for this specific "large wheel" application anyway? My experience with machining the OE S55 housings are that TD04HL fits absolutely terrible and TD04L not so great either, and if they are not good enough for me surely they are not good enough for MHI (I'd absolutely not use either).

Secondarily is that MHI locking themselves into some exclusivity deal also seems a bit odd.

Lastly I'd think MHI would've considered a good inlet solution to match their offerings, knowing that the OE inlet stuff is about 5mm too small for their product.

Not to say any of the options discussed are bad (doesn't have to be MHI specifically to be great), they all seem to be very good quality built solutions, and it is always nice to have some options.

The day I did a little research on those turbos I saw that anyone can buy them directly from MHI without paying a full race commission, I think they made a new mold to manufacture new turbine wheels, they have used Garrett's design because know it is the best, I say which is a very good option because the material of the OEM turbines is much better than the aftermaket ones.

[Rob@RB]

Originally Posted by Track/S

The day I did a little research on those turbos I saw that anyone can buy them directly from MHI without paying a full race commission, I think they made a new mold to manufacture new turbine wheels, they have used Garrett's design because know it is the best, I say which is a very good option because the material of the OEM turbines is much better than the aftermaket ones.

It would make sense if they could be purchased directly somehow, but did you find they made other inlets too? Surely MHI would be concerned about increasing the wheel size ~4-8mm while leaving the inlet the OE 40mm size. Pretty big let down typical of traditional aftermarket if not.

That would make sense to make a new turbine mold or AT LEAST use some custom/new wheel specs, with these housings anyway; because the standard sized MHI wheel size fitments aren't going to cut it over the basic TF035HL in these housings. However a set in hand could readily help confirm/deny this notion.

Also there's lots of big hype on Mar-M turbine material, if that is what you are referring to.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by Rob@RB

It would make sense if they could be purchased directly somehow, but did you find they made other inlets too? Surely MHI would be concerned about increasing the wheel size ~4-8mm while leaving the inlet the OE 40mm size. Pretty big let down typical of traditional aftermarket if not.

That would make sense to make a new turbine mold or AT LEAST use some custom/new wheel specs, with these housings anyway; because the standard sized MHI wheel size fitments aren't going to cut it over the basic TF035HL in these housings. However a set in hand could readily help confirm/deny this notion.

Also there's lots of big hype on Mar-M turbine material, if that is what you are referring to.

Since they do not increase much the inducer of compressor wheel, they do not see need for larger inlets.

I think the S55 turbos have the biggest problem on turbine wheel, too small exducer.

I mean that the inconel on OE turbine wheels is of higher quality.
I have been able to verify this on vag 20vt turbos, the aftermaket turbines melt, in those turbos only OE turbine wheels are durable

[Rob@RB]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Since they do not increase much the inducer of compressor wheel, they do not see need for larger inlets.

I think the S55 turbos have the biggest problem on turbine wheel, too small exducer.

I mean that the inconel on OE turbine wheels is of higher quality.
I have been able to verify this on vag 20vt turbos, the aftermaket turbines melt, in those turbos only OE turbine wheels are durable

I agree that Inconel turbines seem to hold up better over the years, even over the OE Japan Mar-M. OE's usually have great materials without question, there are some great quality in the aftermarkets too; it can certainly depend on the source.

I can tell by pics that they likely increase the inducer to ~46mm, it is insane that they'd "feel" that a 40mm inlet into a compressor that size is "reasonable". I'll stand by that I don't see (or would hope anyway) MHI being that sloppy in their efforts, as this would be a large limiting factor having such a small inlet feeding the larger wheel. All said anyone with upgraded turbos in the S55 platform really needs to start thinking about how they can get some tastefully designed inlets, and not just any larger bolt on but rather those that ACTUALLY match their particular turbos' sizing.

The biggest problem with the S55 turbos (outside of lack of availability on quality well matched to turbo brand x/y/z inlets) is that their turbine housings, while are of good flow design they do not have the Inducer sizing available in the castings to allow a significantly larger turbine. Thus you are better off "under-sizing" the turbine (to some degree), losing a bit of power while retaining a much more responsive and reliable turbo.

[n8dgr84]

Slightly OT but how do the stock turbos compare at 23psi as far as reliability vs the Full-Race and Mosselman on track? I read that the stock turbine wheels can break? Is this an issue with the aftermarket turbine wheels or just a function of high EGTs run through stock cats?

[N44RP]

It sounds like there isn't an oem-like life span aftermarket turbo.