Detailed M4 Track Review - Back from Spa and Nurburgring

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

My wife's N54 with the DCT has a ton of turbo lag compared to her previous N54 with a torque converter 6 speed auto.

What situations are you seeing this lag?

I have N54 + DCT also in my Z435 and I don't have any issues when the engine is at 2000rpm and up. There is some "lag" when starting from a stop light but that is the DCT slipping the clutch

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Yes, N55 is a single turbo and the N54 and S55 are twin turbos.

The 29.1 DME (or .2, hell I can't remember) update did increase the lag but PPK1 took that lag back out for the most part.

Still, I wouldn't call the N55 "crazy" turbo lag. Throw in a little DCT lag (I'm 6MT), and voila, appreciable lag. Go drive a WRX or EVO then get back to me about turbo lag.

i guess after coming back to n/a i just consider "if i press on the throttle and there is no response" to be laggy. if even my wife who like i said doesn't give a rat's ass about cars complains, then its "crazy lag" in my book

i used to have an evo ix modded to 430/420 to the wheels and throttle response was a lot more instantaneous.

what size are the oem bmw turbos?

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I test drove an M235i a few days ago. Even with all the settings in the more aggressive modes, there was still very noticealbe turbo lag.

What is this BS about DCT lag (see my post above)?

And the M235i doesn't have the N54. Go do some reading about the DME 29.1 update. It added considerable lag to the N54/55 to help alleviate the rough idle/wastegate rattles and A LOT of people were extremely unhappy. Fortunately, the PPK1 got ride of most of those negatives.

Does my N54 have turbo lag, absolutely. But in the realm of turbocharged engines (and I've owned a few), this car, without a doubt, has the least of the others.

As for the DCT lag, seems like everyone has covered it.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

i guess after coming back to n/a i just consider "if i press on the throttle and there is no response" to be laggy. if even my wife who like i said doesn't give a rat's ass about cars complains, then its "crazy lag" in my book

i used to have an evo ix modded to 430/420 to the wheels and throttle response was a lot more instantaneous.

what size are the oem bmw turbos?

Well, yeah, that would be the definition of lag. But much like the S65, if you aren't in the proper area of the power band and mash the throttle, not much is going to happen.

But let me guess, in that evo of yours, you had a lot of lag below 3k? And was it FBO or did you upgrade to a larger turbo? The only STi's I knew with that much power had to upgrade their turbos which means a hell of a lot more lag in lower RPMs. It seems like BMW was able to deliver 400+ hp and deliver near minimal lag even down low. I know both my WRX and STi didn't come alive till above 3k and that was with FBO and tunes.

The BMW turbos are tiny btw.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

What situations are you seeing this lag?

I have N54 + DCT also in my Z435 and I don't have any issues when the engine is at 2000rpm and up. There is some "lag" when starting from a stop light but that is the DCT slipping the clutch

Normal driving in the auto mode which does keep the RPM low.if I am driving the car in manual mode I can live with it but the E93 335is does not invite spirited driving regardless of the driving mode selected

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

And the M235i doesn't have the N54. Go do some reading about the DME 29.1 update. It added considerable lag to the N54/55 to help alleviate the rough idle/wastegate rattles and A LOT of people were extremely unhappy. Fortunately, the PPK1 got ride of most of those negatives.

Does my N54 have turbo lag, absolutely. But in the realm of turbocharged engines (and I've owned a few), this car, without a doubt, has the least of the others.

As for the DCT lag, seems like everyone has covered it.

i sort of dont understand the dct lag neither. yes from a stop to take off (or even worse, stop to reverse ) there is some time and slippage of the clutches. But if the car is already in motion, the gear changes are crisp and quick and don't do anything to add to the turbo lag. damn, now i have to go home and make a quick video "n/a vs turbo lag"....all i do is hit the gas and nothing happens. or, tap tap tap the throttle and absolutely nothing happens while in n/a you get jerkiness from tapping the throttle (i call it 3 wheel motion on hydros)

[Jockey]

There are quite a few people complaining about the DCT lag in other forums.

That's why I stick to 3 pedals

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

There are quite a few people complaining about the DCT lag in other forums.

That's why I stick to 3 pedals

oh this is my wife's car. i need three pedals too!

[M3WC]

All these DCT newbs...lol. This transmission has been on many models for many years. Nothing new people. It isn't rocket science.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Well, yeah, that would be the definition of lag. But much like the S65, if you aren't in the proper area of the power band and mash the throttle, not much is going to happen.

But let me guess, in that evo of yours, you had a lot of lag below 3k? And was it FBO or did you upgrade to a larger turbo? The only STi's I knew with that much power had to upgrade their turbos which means a hell of a lot more lag in lower RPMs. It seems like BMW was able to deliver 400+ hp and deliver near minimal lag even down low. I know both my WRX and STi didn't come alive till above 3k and that was with FBO and tunes.

The BMW turbos are tiny btw.

i dont know what the definition of full bolt on is but intake, li/uicp, 4" nisei intercooler, dual manual boost controllers (fixed in two settings with a fast and furious switch in my glovebox lol), 3" all the way, hks 272 cams, dual fuel pump and upgraded lines for 100% e85. stock 20g turbo.

as far as instantaneous response, it was there...tap tap the throttle and there would actually be a response (no turbo lag)....as far as power not coming in till later, i believe that is boost threshold? i dont know but even from a dig and no launch, it pulled hard from 2000rpms.

shit was awesome but i got tired of awd and japanese cars (all 4 cars prior to the evo were jdm too).

[Jockey]

I would say that's a bit beyond FBO, but sounds nice. I'm surprised you could get that power out of that turbo.

I do remember on the Subaru side, full boost wasn't achievable till 2500-3k depending. Nonetheless, that was what I would call turbo lag. On my N54, not so much. 1500 RPM and I hit the throttle, it just gets up and goes. Which is nice.

[JBGD]

KARUSSEL I just to thank you for all your insight to has been great! I have been sitting on the fence about this new car but you definitely have pushed me off it in a hurry. Your honest and knowledgable responses have been refreshing and fantastic! After reading this thread I know just it is just matter of months before I am driving one these. All I need todo now is decide cloth seats or not and color! This thread is definitely the best PR that BMW could ever come up with, even if it tried.

Thanks again

[BigMacSmallFries]

I'll have to try the manual M4. None of the dealerships have any to try out. I find that hard to believe it was the DCT but since I've never owned one I wouldn't have known it was possible. I know it doesn't engage quickly from standstill but didn't realize the same happens when you're coasting and get back on power again.

What is silly about this turbocharged debate is that looking at the dyno charts there is not much torque below 2000RPM as it builds up quickly, at least the S65 had 90% of it's torque from 2500RPM to 7500RPM. This one looks like it's got 90% of it's torque from 2500RPM to about 6000RPM and it's all uneven throughout the RPM range instead of flat. Anyways, I will go test drive one when there is one available once again.

Thanks for the input, I still think the sound of the engine stinks with the stock exhaust, but maybe I'll come around with the M Performance Exhaust. There's a new video that was just posted on the main page. Maybe the car was meant to be ordered with it from the get go.

Either way, the F8x M3/4 is much better than what any of the other brands will offer in the price range. I'll give it another go...

Originally Posted by karussell

I felt no turbo lag at any rpm. i find the turbo's wind up very linearly even when i try to trick the car into a lag state. what I think you mistake for lag in lower rpm is clutch engagement in lower rpm with the DCT. Its very very easy on the F10 M5. A manual boxed M4 you will enjoy...trust me.

The 3.8 Mezger compared to any other motor especially a forced fed one is going to feel somewhat of a letdown. I'm actually surprised you like the S65 so much in the E92. Yes the motor itself is good but the low torque on a heavy platform really held it back. And its throttle response is nothing like the Mezger. I find the S55 is spiritually closer than the S65 was other than the lower rpm limit. It makes lots of funny angry little noises which makes me chuckle just like the mezger.

On steering feel, I think its better than any M car before it. I stand by that. Its direct, precise, weighted. I didn't detect any lag that is evident in the 991 and as you said was previously the best eps system out there. I did not have any complaints about it on street or track, but that's just my feeling on it. maybe you have much more sensitive hands? I would say you must reserve your judgement for track for steering feel.You will be shocked how fast this car really is. In the RS I can do a very spirited lap and think wow that pushed the envelope and glad I landed back on the ground. With the M4 it just begs for more and more. A lot of that has to do with how easy it is to drive and its relative cost. The RS for me was by far the most expensive car I ever purchased so something in the back of my head always holds back a reserve. It was ultimately much more fun to race a much lower hp car in competition than lap in a street car even one so great as the RS.

Would I prefer a 4.4L GTS block in the F82? No. My M4 is a street car that I take to the track. I like not to spend all my time at the fuel pump and the car is so fun with the forced induction motor.....and I traditionally hate turbo motors!! This is the first one i am absolutely happy with. Plus the cost of such a car would far eclipse a GT3 and still not keep up to it so I would just get that again anyways. The GT3 RS is still my favorite sports car so long as I can drive it in Germany or predominantly on a track. commuting in it, going to the grocery store, even driving the country side in it at legalish speeds....kinda impossible. With the M4 its fun all the time. Besides I love driving a slower car full of passengers by much faster ones on the track, especially the Nordschleife. ))

In the end none of this matters. as you said we have our different opinions. I'm a E30 and E46 M3 fan myself. I thought those cars had the most M-spirit in them and now I will gladly include the F8X in that group.

Your views I think are largely related to comparing the RS to the M4 versus the E92 to the F82. That in itself I think shows how good this car is. of course its ridiculous to compare them on track performance but really thats exactly what is happening. I think more Porsche owners are looking at the M4 as a daily driver that can also go on the track.

[mxa121]

Originally Posted by karussell

Sure!

Thanks for the great track review and detailed description!

Now, when will you be placing your M4 on the scales?!!!!
As I understand it, you have no extra options on your car. So as you know, the weight of a car like yours is bound to cause massive waves in this community.

[mdss6]

Originally Posted by JBGD

KARUSSEL I just to thank you for all your insight to has been great! I have been sitting on the fence about this new car but you definitely have pushed me off it in a hurry. Your honest and knowledgable responses have been refreshing and fantastic! After reading this thread I know just it is just matter of months before I am driving one these. All I need todo now is decide cloth seats or not and color! This thread is definitely the best PR that BMW could ever come up with, even if it tried.

Thanks again

+1

Originally Posted by mxa121

Thanks for the great track review and detailed description!

Now, when will you be placing your M4 on the scales?!!!!
As I understand it, you have no extra options on your car. So as you know, the weight of a car like yours is bound to cause massive waves in this community.

+1

[bsskier2691]

Originally Posted by karussell

I had a similar PM question. So here is my general advice. Even though i said the argument for a 991S is largely negated that is from my perspective having previously owned and tracked 911's for the past 7 years.

If you have a history with BMW's especially ///M cars and you are curious about the dark side PLEASE go drive a Porsche. Cayman, Boxster, Carrera. whatever. With the 911 you will feel like its pushing you and possibly want to kill you at any moment and you will LOVE it or you will HATE it! (this feature is largely subdued in the 991 but its still very much evident) For the Cayman/Boxster you will likely feel like the brakes are optional for all curves you encounter and wonder why it doesn't get more power. You will LOVE it or you will HATE it! If you are in the former category then go for it! scratch that itch! There are really no bad Porsche's. If the latter then obviously get the best BMW sports car ever made.

I recommend however if you do consider buying a Porsche...look at the model that is at the high point of your budget range and then buy the one above that. Yes option prices are crazy high, but there is a little old lady in zuffenhausen and her job is to wrap leather on a/c vents. She is the worlds foremost expert on wrapping a/c vents in leather and she along with dozens of other artists have families to feed. All kidding aside its all part of the experience.

After you had your fun in the P-car of your dreams maybe you will decide to come back to BMW and the M3/M4 will always be there. You can buy one new or used and its going to be a great deal for what it gives you in return. They are two different cars but both belong in your garage preferably at the same time if you are lucky enough.

On a side-note. PDK in the 991 is not as smooth as DCT in the F8X but I still prefer the PDK more. It just feels more raw and unrefined. more like a rally car. I love the high position of the lever on the center console. just remember the pattern is backwards on non-GT cars. that part is annoying...

What is your opinion on comparing the M4 with the Cayman GTS?
I have a 2008 E92 with low miles and DCT and would like to get a MT GTS or a F82 and am on the fence. I don't need the back seats but living at 7000 feet, I like the idea of the F82 with twin turbos. I have driven the Cayman S and really liked it, but my heart seems to be taken by the F82 (although I have owned 911s in the past, it was in the 70s and 80s. My most recent cars have been an E36 and E46 prior to my E92.)

Thanks for any insights you might be able to offer.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3

what size are the oem bmw turbos?

They have been compared to the size of a pill-bottle top.

In Sports Plus throttle mode, they are pre-sprung and keep on spinning to allow for near-instantaneous boost. What remains to be seen for me (since I haven't had a chance to drive the car all out yet) is whether the sports plus throttle is still linear enough to be usable (the sports plus throttle in E92 was fun on freeways if you were being lazy, but no bueno on the track). It would suck if BMW spent all this money and tech to reduce throttle lag, and end up making the throttle twitchy and non-linear.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

They have been compared to the size of a pill-bottle top.

In Sports Plus throttle mode, they are pre-sprung and keep on spinning to allow for near-instantaneous boost. What remains to be seen for me (since I haven't had a chance to drive the car all out yet) is whether the sports plus throttle is still linear enough to be usable (the sports plus throttle in E92 was fun on freeways if you were being lazy, but no bueno on the track). It would suck if BMW spent all this money and tech to reduce throttle lag, and end up making the throttle twitchy and non-linear.

yeah i can't use sport+, even sport is meh doable but not preferred...i guess they want a throttle setup like a ferrari

[karussell]

Originally Posted by mxa121

Thanks for the great track review and detailed description!

Now, when will you be placing your M4 on the scales?!!!!
As I understand it, you have no extra options on your car. So as you know, the weight of a car like yours is bound to cause massive waves in this community.

once i get it off a boat. i haven't even tracked where it is since i dropped it off. maybe it stopped off in the bahamas for a vacation.

i'll be sure to post it once i have her stateside.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by bsskier2691

What is your opinion on comparing the M4 with the Cayman GTS?
I have a 2008 E92 with low miles and DCT and would like to get a MT GTS or a F82 and am on the fence. I don't need the back seats but living at 7000 feet, I like the idea of the F82 with twin turbos. I have driven the Cayman S and really liked it, but my heart seems to be taken by the F82 (although I have owned 911s in the past, it was in the 70s and 80s. My most recent cars have been an E36 and E46 prior to my E92.)

Thanks for any insights you might be able to offer.

I haven't tried the GTS varient yet. Since you tried a cayman S and owned some "real" porsches in the past i would say you should just order an F82 and do euro delivery. thats my standard prescription for anyone that has A) had a porsche previously and B) the M4 fits in your price range.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

They have been compared to the size of a pill-bottle top.

In Sports Plus throttle mode, they are pre-sprung and keep on spinning to allow for near-instantaneous boost. What remains to be seen for me (since I haven't had a chance to drive the car all out yet) is whether the sports plus throttle is still linear enough to be usable (the sports plus throttle in E92 was fun on freeways if you were being lazy, but no bueno on the track). It would suck if BMW spent all this money and tech to reduce throttle lag, and end up making the throttle twitchy and non-linear.

sports+ is linear for me. I had no problem with being smooth with it on the track. although i never had an issue with the E92 in sports plus either. i preferred the more aggressive throttle map as you wanted to keep it wound up. I know some people prefer longer foot travel to be more smooth and i applaud that. different strokes. if i have a student that is keen on mashing the gas pedal i would ask them to turn off whatever device in that particular car causing more abrupt throttle response. I would say if you didn't like the feel in E92 you probably will not like it in the F82.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by JBGD

KARUSSEL I just to thank you for all your insight to has been great! I have been sitting on the fence about this new car but you definitely have pushed me off it in a hurry. Your honest and knowledgable responses have been refreshing and fantastic! After reading this thread I know just it is just matter of months before I am driving one these. All I need todo now is decide cloth seats or not and color! This thread is definitely the best PR that BMW could ever come up with, even if it tried.

Thanks again

thanks for that. the car is not perfect, but BMW certainly did an excellent job. you can tell from just firing it up and sitting inside it. its a special car.

In a race car you want it to inspire confidence. In fact I think its the highest compliment you can give a team director about their cars. When you know you can stop and maneuver and accelerate and put that car exactly where you want it lap after lap you can focus on pushing harder. When you have no confidence in any of the systems in a race car you can't do that any more. you are left dividing your focus on managing something extra.

With the F8X we have a street car that inspires confidence on the track right out the factory floor...literally. and again i can give no higher compliment.

naysayers that complain about this car won't be happy with anything i imagine. i feel bad for them.