Bootmod3 vs JB4, personal thoughts?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by kerm1t

its almost like you have to tell every single person on this forum. JB4 can be detected. It's not flag proof.

It pretty much is.

I've never heard of anyone getting flagged with it. The JB4 blocks the DME from seeing higher than factory load/boost/torque values, and blocks maxed out fuel trims. The worst they can do with it is try to claim timing was stored lower but it's a weak argument because you could always blame the fuel you added.

Mike

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It pretty much is.

I've never heard of anyone getting flagged with it. The JB4 blocks the DME from seeing higher than factory load/boost/torque values, and blocks maxed out fuel trims. The worst they can do with it is try to claim timing was stored lower but it's a weak argument because you could always blame the fuel you added.

Mike

One of my clients is a BMW tech and this is what he said about the piggyback

"FWIW we can see it during what we call Fasta Data submission. Basically anytime it comes in and the car is scanned it can show up. Not saying you shouldn't use it But I know BMW is now looking for piggy back tuners."

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It pretty much is.

I've never heard of anyone getting flagged with it. The JB4 blocks the DME from seeing higher than factory load/boost/torque values, and blocks maxed out fuel trims. The worst they can do with it is try to claim timing was stored lower but it's a weak argument because you could always blame the fuel you added.

Mike

You can't block fasta data at all.

I saw cars flagged for aftermarket intakes. Very popular green F82 here on the forums.

[2SNAILS]

Originally Posted by Figurka

You can't block fasta data at all.

I saw cars flagged for aftermarket intakes. Very popular green F82 here on the forums.

I know that car, lol
Damm shame cars are being flagged for something so simple as intakes now!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

One of my clients is a BMW tech and this is what he said about the piggyback

"FWIW we can see it during what we call Fasta Data submission. Basically anytime it comes in and the car is scanned it can show up. Not saying you shouldn't use it But I know BMW is now looking for piggy back tuners."

BMW has been doing that since 2008 when they released the tuner detection codes and manipulation codes that some with flash maps trigger. I'm not suggesting people should try to trick their dealer. Pay for any damage you cause. But the notion that the JB4 is easily detected is a myth that is spread by flash tuners to justify the fact that flash maps are quite easily detected.

To get flagged for an intake unless it's really poorly designed and tripped fault codes all over the place that you're not properly deleting before going in they'd have to physically see it.

Mike

[chewbakam4]

Anyone with the ISTA tool can run a fasta report. They look at peak fuel flow values and other min and max settings kept in there. I’m sure you could get it yourself and just run it on your own car. I for one have seen it on a number of piggyback cars and not just JB4 but also a Dinan one but those guys don’t care as they get Dinan’s replacement warranty. Nothing hides fully from getting flagged if they want to pin it on you. Pay to play.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

Anyone with the ISTA tool can run a fasta report. They look at peak fuel flow values and other min and max settings kept in there. I’m sure you could get it yourself and just run it on your own car. I for one have seen it on a number of piggyback cars and not just JB4 but also a Dinan one but those guys don’t care as they get Dinan’s replacement warranty. Nothing hides fully from getting flagged if they want to pin it on you. Pay to play.

Exactly, the flash maps get caught easily since the DME sees the true boost, load, and torque targets. They are obviously out of range and stick out like a sore thumb. The JB4 keeps everything within the DME within a plausible factory range by nature of how it does the tuning, which is why I've never heard of it ever being flagged unless they find it on the car.

Mike

[chewbakam4]

Think you misunderstood. I was referring to piggybacks when it came to fasta resports and fuel flow values, think it was injector flow as far as I recall but its been a while. It doesn’t seem any piggyback can hide those. Flashes too you’re screwed if look deep enough or even just look at the DME but when you flash it resets fasta data so you can’t get caught that way but they will find a way when they want to.

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Exactly, the flash maps get caught easily since the DME sees the true boost, load, and torque targets. They are obviously out of range and stick out like a sore thumb. The JB4 keeps everything within the DME within a plausible factory range by nature of how it does the tuning, which is why I've never heard of it ever being flagged unless they find it on the car.

Mike

That’s factually incorrect and very misleading, to the point of being irresponsible if potential consumers interpret it in the way piggy back resellers hope they do.

There’s been numerous examples of piggy back users being flagged even after
full removal. The tactic of “remove and deny” seems to have worse consequences
than understanding the risks ahead of time, and being forthcoming and negotiable.

BMW is not an enemy to the aftermarket, and the dealerships want/need the
consumer generated revenue through their service departments. Consumers
need to be fairly educated so they can make smart decisions.

[kerm1t]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

That’s factually incorrect and very misleading, to the point of being irresponsible if potential consumers interpret it in the way piggy back resellers hope they do.

There’s been numerous examples of piggy back users being flagged even after
full removal. The tactic of “remove and deny” seems to have worse consequences
than understanding the risks ahead of time, and being forthcoming and negotiable.

BMW is not an enemy to the aftermarket, and the dealerships want/need the
consumer generated revenue through their service departments. Consumers
need to be fairly educated so they can make smart decisions.

This.

Cmon mike... I've been a big fan of JB4 and still am, but you don't have to defend it that much.

[parabmw]

I had a JB piggyback on 335 and then switched to flash. There's no comparison. If I tune my m4 it will definitely be a flash.
Let's be real. The jb4 is easily detected by bmw.

[rosenbergendo]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Exactly, the flash maps get caught easily since the DME sees the true boost, load, and torque targets. They are obviously out of range and stick out like a sore thumb. The JB4 keeps everything within the DME within a plausible factory range by nature of how it does the tuning, which is why I've never heard of it ever being flagged unless they find it on the car.

Mike

This is so correct. And its perpetuated by the ECU tuners who try and convince people their product isn't highly risky. It is. It might be better overall as a tune but your warranty is completely gone and you will no be covered by BMW. So just be aware you are totally at risk and culpable if you ECU tune. You are a goner if ANYTHING needs to warrantied. The flash maps are caught instantly by the BMW computers. The piggies are much much more difficult to pick up and require a large burden of ancillary proof for the stealer to deny warranty if removed. Ask me how I know.

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by rosenbergendo

This is so correct. And its perpetuated by the ECU tuners who try and convince people their product isn't highly risky. It is. It might be better overall as a tune but your warranty is completely gone and you will no be covered by BMW. So just be aware you are totally at risk and culpable if you ECU tune. You are a goner if ANYTHING needs to warrantied. The flash maps are caught instantly by the BMW computers. The piggies are much much more difficult to pick up and require a large burden of ancillary proof for the stealer to deny warranty if removed. Ask me how I know.

Good grief, no one is going to die here. Let's put the risks in perspective. It's just tweaking a car to make it more fun to drive. The absolute worst case is the motor detonates. Not the end if the world. I've been in a car when the motor came apart. Makes for a good story. Now it's time to Rodney King this thread. Can't we all get along.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by MNoob

Good grief, no one is going to die here. Let's put the risks in perspective. It's just tweaking a car to make it more fun to drive. The absolute worst case is the motor detonates. Not the end if the world. I've been in a car when the motor came apart. Makes for a good story. Now it's time to Rodney King this thread. Can't we all get along.

Uhh no one mentioned dying but needing to replace an engine not covered by warranty is kind of a big deal.

[BoxKing]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Uhh no one mentioned dying but needing to replace an engine not covered by warranty is kind of a big deal.

Agreed; though, there are a lot of other issue that could cause major drivetrain failures and it may not even be directly cause by a tune/piggyback, but due to the fact that you have one of the two on your car, most dealerships would try to deem the cause due to aftermarket performance - as they always will try to do.

An even bigger concern would be for those that use their //M as a daily driver, with no backup(s). No warranty claim processed or in process and you have a rental to pay for... zammmnnn each day would eat at your paycheck!

Personally I given up hope in the JB4 as my option. Previous owners are selling and moving on to the Flash options due to the increased stability of the tunes. I'll never run meth or have need to adjust other timing, so Flash is what it is. Hex/BM3...? TBD

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BoxKing

Agreed; though, there are a lot of other issue that could cause major drivetrain failures and it may not even be directly cause by a tune/piggyback, but due to the fact that you have one of the two on your car, most dealerships would try to deem the cause due to aftermarket performance - as they always will try to do.

An even bigger concern would be for those that use their //M as a daily driver, with no backup(s). No warranty claim processed or in process and you have a rental to pay for... zammmnnn each day would eat at your paycheck!

Personally I given up hope in the JB4 as my option. Previous owners are selling and moving on to the Flash options due to the increased stability of the tunes. I'll never run meth or have need to adjust other timing, so Flash is what it is. Hex/BM3...? TBD

The expensive repair we all hope we never get is the crank hub spin. Can range from a few thousand to over ten thousand depending on what breaks. While I don't believe its tuning related the dealer will often deny if they know the car is tuned. That is when being able to remove your tune without a trace could come in handy.

Mike

[parabmw]

Any major repair will be investigated and a piggyback will be detected. So to suggest removing it will help with a warranty claim is very dishonest.

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The expensive repair we all hope we never get is the crank hub spin. Can range from a few thousand to over ten thousand depending on what breaks. While I don't believe its tuning related the dealer will often deny if they know the car is tuned. That is when being able to remove your tune without a trace could come in handy.

Mike

Mike, not a dealer deny a warranty case it's BMW NA.
Also you can remove your JB4 and clear all faults, codes etc. But you can't clear FASTA data.

So to be clear, a JB4 can be detected even it got removed. Telling something else is just not true!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Figurka

Mike, not a dealer deny a warranty case it's BMW NA.
Also you can remove your JB4 and clear all faults, codes etc. But you can't clear FASTA data.

So to be clear, a JB4 can be detected even it got removed. Telling something else is just not true!

As I replied above that is a myth spread by flash tuners. It's difficult if not impossible to detect a JB4 once removed even via FASTA. While a flash tune sticks out like a sore thumb and they'd have to go out of their way not to notice it. As has been said people should be upfront and honest with their dealerships but understand the technical differences in how each tuning approach works.

Mike

[LOW4LYF]

It's not a myth sprayed out by flash tuners, is just the trues.

Every piggyback including JB4 can be detected even unplugged or removed. Telling people JB4 can't be detected is just not right.

[parabmw]

If jb4 vendors believe it to be true they can always guarantee it.
Self serving statements by vendors are quite sad and so transparently misleading.

[BoxKing]

Originally Posted by parabmw

If jb4 vendors believe it to be true they can always guarantee it.
Self serving statements by vendors are quite sad and so transparently misleading.

I think the only thing held to be true is that you can Flash back to stock tune prior to service which should help trick the dealership and you can remove the piggyback to do the same damn thang... that's your only warrantee folks - read it and DONT WEAP!