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      05-16-2014, 12:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
The chassis control mentioned here is exactly what I seek. It's SO HARD to find in a lighter weight sedan - it's the car isn't buttoned down so that it can absorb the bumps, or it's buttoned down great for smoother roads but loses composure on messed up roads.

And it all comes down to

#1 Chassis stiffness combined with wheelbase and track
#2 Tires & suspension tuning

This to me is more important than the engine and I will be thrilled if BMW hit it spot on.
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      05-16-2014, 12:21 PM   #90
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Chris is defiantly the most unbiased auto Journalist around.
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      05-16-2014, 12:24 PM   #91
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People spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket exhaust systems to improve the engine note.

Chris Harris thinks engine note is not important on a dd. Lol
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      05-16-2014, 12:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
People spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket exhaust systems to improve the engine note.

Chris Harris thinks engine note is not important on a dd. Lol
People spend thousands on new wheels that don't add an iota of performance and are just for looks. What's your point?
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      05-16-2014, 12:29 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw View Post
Chris is defiantly the most unbiased auto Journalist around.
Not sure if that's the best way to put it. There are plenty of non-biased journalists out there (that don't get enough credit), but there's always a hint of bias in even the most objective ones. Chris does a great job of looking at things from a realistic perspective, and he's rather self-admitted when it comes to any bias. That transparency is always appreciated.

It's a shame that so many people refuse to listen to other publications and hold their breath until he has his word in. I think it unfairly devalues other journalists' opinions.
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      05-16-2014, 12:38 PM   #94
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People spend thousands on new wheels that don't add an iota of performance and are just for looks. What's your point?
Same reason why some spend hundreds of thousands on old Ferraris, Lambo with NA engines with less performance than even a 335i. Engine note is a big part of the experience to some.
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      05-16-2014, 12:43 PM   #95
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Nice read, can't wait for the video...I need to stop looking at f80 articles/reviews before I find myself putting a down payment on one
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      05-16-2014, 12:46 PM   #96
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From the videos i've heard i agree with the exhaust note but nothing a good aftermarket exhaust system cant fix.
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      05-16-2014, 12:49 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Kuwen View Post
I'm at a loss as to what the engine would need to do to be more special other than sound different? Power, speed, delivery, economy, usability, they're all there, nailing all those points seems pretty special to me.

If V8 sound is your number one criteria for a car then it makes a decision pretty straight forward.
Throttle response, resolution of throttle, better high rpm performance

Also

Not necessarily a V8 sound, but a good sound
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      05-16-2014, 12:51 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw View Post
Chris is defiantly the most unbiased auto Journalist around.
Not sure if that's the best way to put it. There are plenty of non-biased journalists out there (that don't get enough credit), but there's always a hint of bias in even the most objective ones. Chris does a great job of looking at things from a realistic perspective, and he's rather self-admitted when it comes to any bias. That transparency is always appreciated.

It's a shame that so many people refuse to listen to other publications and hold their breath until he has his word in. I think it unfairly devalues other journalists' opinions.
To me it's more the fact he looks at the car as a whole when he reviews them . Doesn't Dwell on one element unless it's really bad. He has always been more of a M/Porsche kind of a guy. Which is why his prospective is so great. He's owned countless M cars and gets the the picture. Some people don't step back and look at what BMW is really trying to do here. That Autocar.uk review against the C63 to me was stupid. Of course a 6.3 V8 is going to sound better and have better throttle response. I don't need to watch a review to know that. Every car has a market. I think Chris looks at it from that perspective. He really has a feel for what the manufacture was trying to achieve and puts it into word.
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      05-16-2014, 12:58 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw View Post
To me it's more the fact he looks at the car as a whole when he reviews them . Doesn't Dwell on one element unless it's really bad. He has always been more of a M/Porsche kind of a guy. Which is why his prospective is so great. He's owned countless M cars and gets the the picture. Some people don't step back and look at what BMW is really trying to do here. That Autocar.uk review against the C63 to me was stupid. Of course a 6.3 V8 is going to sound better and have better throttle response. I don't need to watch a review to know that. Every car has a market. I think Chris looks at it from that perspective. He really has a feel for what the manufacture was trying to achieve and puts it into word.
I definitely understand and agree with what you're saying. I think what you said there is better than your original post regarding the bias matter, and it sort of aligns with what I was saying about him having a realistic perspective on things.

I still think that other journalists can evaluate a car's qualitative properties honestly and accurately, but the context they look at it might be out of touch with the real world. Some mags will focus on a purist approach which I'm not overly fond of. Others focus too much on the numbers - or the safety and practicality on the flipside. Harris does a great job of touching on the numbers but focusing on the actual matter at hand: evaluating the car at face value.
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      05-16-2014, 01:01 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
What a great pre-review by Chris Harris. My favorite thing he said is above. The CCB's really make a great difference. I'm sure the video is going to be awesome.


Also, what's with all of the discontent with M5 and M6 owners, and a few E92 M3 fanboys? I personally love the new M3/M4 and have stated previously on this forum that it's the first M3 I've ever wanted to own. I think the F80/F82 are going to be fantastic cars and so far I so happen to agree with Chris Harris on the one thing that is lacking, the engine and exhaust note. But it's been the same story with the M5/M6 for years now, lack of an engine and exhaust note with the stock exhaust. I haven't really heard anyone on this M4 forum really bad mouth it. The M3/M4 will always be the better track car, it always has been. No arguing that. I just so happen to think it's a little funny when people speculate that a stock M4 can do 0-60 3.5 seconds and lap the Nurburgring in 7:27. Any M5 or M6 owner on here isn't posting to start arguments, or like Boss330 ,who doesn't even own an M car, he's just one of the biggest car enthusiasts I've ever met, we're all just discussing stuff cause we all have passion. I mean sure, we'll never be able to drive an M4 on a racetrack, highway, or street while getting your butt cooled and massaged, but that doesn't mean the M5/M6 are better. Just more luxury that's all. Anyways, hope that we can all continue to enjoy each others posts and share our excitement and love for these cars.
Best part of your posts is that you actually have perspective. Thanks for keeping it real.
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      05-16-2014, 01:05 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Light steering... boy that scares me. It scared me miles away from a regular F30. If it doesn't provide a proper, heavy weighed BMW feedback... I am truly scared.
Prepare to be disappointed.

Oh, weight does not equal feel, BTW.
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      05-16-2014, 01:06 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw View Post
To me it's more the fact he looks at the car as a whole when he reviews them . Doesn't Dwell on one element unless it's really bad. He has always been more of a M/Porsche kind of a guy. Which is why his prospective is so great. He's owned countless M cars and gets the the picture. Some people don't step back and look at what BMW is really trying to do here. That Autocar.uk review against the C63 to me was stupid. Of course a 6.3 V8 is going to sound better and have better throttle response. I don't need to watch a review to know that. Every car has a market. I think Chris looks at it from that perspective. He really has a feel for what the manufacture was trying to achieve and puts it into word.
Sutcliffe is one of the more well respected in his field as is Harris.
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      05-16-2014, 01:11 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Light steering... boy that scares me. It scared me miles away from a regular F30. If it doesn't provide a proper, heavy weighed BMW feedback... I am truly scared.
Prepare to be disappointed.

Oh, weight does not equal feel, BTW.
Well aware, that has scared me away from many cars, just bcuz this an m3 does not make it immune.
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      05-16-2014, 01:15 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo8765 View Post
Throttle response, resolution of throttle, better high rpm performance
Not trolling, genuine questions on that last point:

- why is 'high rpm to the detriment of low rpm' better than 'consistent and solid throughout'?
- why, in general, would high rpm be a specifically desireable thing? (i mean, yes, it sounds nice and can be fun to redline a car out....but for most driving, it makes it more difficult and for anything that isnt tracking, it just means to get that power you are going to waste a bajillion extra litres of gas....)

Curious is all.
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      05-16-2014, 01:16 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwen View Post
I'm at a loss as to what the engine would need to do to be more special other than sound different?
Seems to me what people (who haven't driven the car) are taking exception with is

1.) Sound
2.) "Rush to the finish" at redline
3.) Throttle response

What CH seems to be saying is

1.) Maybe a little, but it grows on you given it's other superb qualities
2.) Maybe you give a LITTLE here, but not much - it's worth winding out it just doesn't have the e9x's 7000+ win ... BUT that comes with loads of pre-7000 win the e9x doesn't have
3.) None that he could tell

For people complaining about the DD aspect of his review- uh, that's what this car is: a DD that can be track ready. IF you don't want a DD then why the HELL are you buying an M3/4?? (or a 911 or a cayman?)
I'm a fan of your username! I spent a few years in Bavaria.

As far as the 1, 2, and 3 points from your post are concerned, though, I think it's almost comical how the interpretations of people are so vastly different depending on whether they want to love or hate the F8X.

I'm personally in the "want to love it" crowd, although I have the luxury of not being married to the car given that I haven't put money down yet (this MIGHT be because I don't have an easily expendable 80,000 dollars burning a hole in my pocket right now, but that's neither here nor there!).

With that said, though, I think your interpretation of Chris's review is a little optimistic here:

On Point 1, he didn't seem "a little" disappointed by the sound, he seemed a LOT disappointed by the sound. He said he literally "laughed out loud" when hearing it, and he described it as sounding like a "mapped 335d"! He also used the term "weird" and stated that it didn't have the classic BMW straight six sound that he enjoyed in the M235i. His final thoughts were that the performance of the engine made the sound a "non-issue" for him and that he "almost liked it" by the end--but that he'd prefer listening to the radio. His overall impression of the engine was positive, but I don't understand how you could read his review of the SOUND specifically as positive or just "a little" disappointed.

On Point 2, I think you hit the nail on the head with your description, but your up front conclusion "Maybe you give a LITTLE here" again seems very skewed. When talking about rush to redline, Chris Harris doesn't seem to think the F8X lags just a little behind. At least to me, it seems--when talking "rush to redline" and nothing else--he finds it to be a big difference. He lauds the "deranged V8 model's zap and DTM blare beyond 7,500rpm" and can only say the S55 is "worth revving out to 7,500rpm." Ultimately, he views the S55 as a big improvement over the S65--but not in terms of this rush to redline. He states that opportunities to enjoy the S65 above 7,000 RPMs are limited in daily driving and that "for everyday use, the torque, the sheer speed and the range make the new gizzards--for me--far more appealing." I fully agree that Chris Harris ultimately finds the new engine better, but I don't think we can interpret what he wrote as refuting E9X fanboy's claims that the S55 has been a step backwards in rush to redline from the S65. (However, I think we CAN safely interpret that he ultimately views the virtues of the new engine as a daily driver as far outweighing this drawback).

On Point 3, I personally feel very good about the car's throttle response from Chris Harris's review. I especially liked hearing that "the response was always there" mid-corner, which was a particular concern of mine. For you to write, "None that he could tell" though when discussing potential loss of throttle response is a little slanted. He even directly stated that "Compared to, say, an E46 you lose a tiny amount of instant zap." Now, to me, this seems to be a STELLAR review, considering that the new car is turbocharged (read: prone to losing throttle response in the form of turbo lag) and he states "I didn't have any problem" with it overall. Still, though, I prefer to be upfront and honest about its throttle response being NEARLY as good as naturally aspirated, instead of being off the mark and stating there's no difference (which just leaves room for the fanboys to attack).

By the end of this post, I'm sure the F8X knights templar will have branded me an E9X apologist, but I promise you that I am not. I enjoy my E92, but it is not a perfect car, and I am certainly not clinging to it. I am interested in the F8X as my potential next car in 18-24 months (although I'm leaning towards something lighter possibly), and I think this review by Chris Harris was OVERWHELMINGLY positive. If people bring up those three points though as flaws of the F8X (sound, rush to redline, and throttle response), I don't think I'll be using Chris Harris's review to prove them wrong. His review seems to indicate that these things are not necessarily important (or at least not deal breakers) in a high performance street car/DD--and not that they are somehow equal or better than previous generations of M3.
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      05-16-2014, 01:18 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Sutcliffe is one of the more well respected in his field as is Harris.
LOL...last night you were saying where's the Chris Harris review so we can get the true story, and now you say that Sutcliffe is his equal, because he picked another car for the sound it makes. Maybe they should sumo wrestle so you can pick?
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      05-16-2014, 01:19 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Sutcliffe is one of the more well respected in his field as is Harris.
Meh, I think he's a putz.

To me, there are only two guys who can truly articulate the essence of what it means to drive a particular car into words. Chris Harris and Harry Catchpole. There are other guys who are close (like Jethro Bovington) and then there are most of the rest, who are either hacks, press-whores, or buffoons.

The thing that does it for me is exactly what Chris did in this article - give you perspective. Compare it to cars to give you an idea of what it's like, as well as what it's not like. Compare it to cars that you SHOULD compare it to for perspective, not ones you shouldn't compare it to because they are "market rivals". Face it, despite the E92 and the C63 AMG both being C-class sized coupes with V8's and DCT's, their mission and driving sensations couldn't be more different. One is not going to drive those two and say, "I'm buying car XX because it's executed it's mission 'better'." You buy it because those things that you value higher than others are better represented in that car you chose.

Like with a Macca 650S vs. a Speciale. You can't tell me that one of those cars is BETTER. They are DIFFERENT and what's better for you is not necessarily better for me.

Chris and Harry don't fall into that trap. Sutcliffe did.
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      05-16-2014, 01:23 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post

On Point 1, he didn't seem "a little" disappointed by the sound, he seemed a LOT disappointed by the sound. He said he literally "laughed out loud" when hearing it, and he described it as sounding like a "mapped 335d"! He also used the term "weird" and stated that it didn't have the classic BMW straight six sound that he enjoyed in the M235i. His final thoughts were that the performance of the engine made the sound a "non-issue" for him and that he "almost liked it" by the end--but that he'd prefer listening to the radio. His overall impression of the engine was positive, but I don't understand how you could read his review of the SOUND specifically as positive or just "a little" disappointed.

On Point 2, I think you hit the nail on the head with your description, but your up front conclusion "Maybe you give a LITTLE here" again seems very skewed. When talking about rush to redline, Chris Harris doesn't seem to think the F8X lags just a little behind. At least to me, it seems--when talking "rush to redline" and nothing else--he finds it to be a big difference. He lauds the "deranged V8 model's zap and DTM blare beyond 7,500rpm" and can only say the S55 is "worth revving out to 7,500rpm." Ultimately, he views the S55 as a big improvement over the S65--but not in terms of this rush to redline. He states that opportunities to enjoy the S65 above 7,000 RPMs are limited in daily driving and that "for everyday use, the torque, the sheer speed and the range make the new gizzards--for me--far more appealing." I fully agree that Chris Harris ultimately finds the new engine better, but I don't think we can interpret what he wrote as refuting E9X fanboy's claims that the S55 has been a step backwards in rush to redline from the S65. (However, I think we CAN safely interpret that he ultimately views the virtues of the new engine as a daily driver as far outweighing this drawback).

...

By the end of this post, I'm sure the F8X knights templar will have branded me an E9X apologist, but I promise you that I am not. I enjoy my E92, but it is not a perfect car, and I am certainly not clinging to it. I am interested in the F8X as my potential next car in 18-24 months (although I'm leaning towards something lighter possibly), and I think this review by Chris Harris was OVERWHELMINGLY positive. If people bring up those three points though as flaws of the F8X (sound, rush to redline, and throttle response), I don't think I'll be using Chris Harris's review to prove them wrong. His review seems to indicate that these things are not necessarily important (or at least not deal breakers) in a high performance street car/DD--and not that they are somehow equal or better than previous generations of M3.
Wow - a genuine attempt at analysis/discussion on the internet! quick, someone call the thought police! make him crankier! start the ad hominem attack training sessions!

Anyway, while saying a review is 'positive' or 'negative' is always a bit of an interpretive thing (the review speaks for itself, afterall) I would tend to agree with @sapper_m3's assessment.

I think we can conclude the sound is only a bit of a disappointment and that the high rpm performace (which I don't see him as saying is bad, just different/less of a rush than E90) is also minor because of his overall conclusions. It is clear (as you later note) he loves the car. He says he would buy one. So, if you want guidance on whether those are 'minor' or 'major', the fact they don't push him off the 'I would get this and I love it and it fixes the problems with the E90' conclusion tell you they are minor.

By contrast, the Sutcliffe video review where he calls the sound a "major caveat" show a much bigger reservation. For him, the sound is a major problem. For Harris, as he says, he almost likes it by the end of some spirited driving.
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      05-16-2014, 01:23 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw View Post
To me it's more the fact he looks at the car as a whole when he reviews them . Doesn't Dwell on one element unless it's really bad. He has always been more of a M/Porsche kind of a guy. Which is why his prospective is so great. He's owned countless M cars and gets the the picture. Some people don't step back and look at what BMW is really trying to do here. That Autocar.uk review against the C63 to me was stupid. Of course a 6.3 V8 is going to sound better and have better throttle response. I don't need to watch a review to know that. Every car has a market. I think Chris looks at it from that perspective. He really has a feel for what the manufacture was trying to achieve and puts it into word.
Sutcliffe is one of the more well respected in his field as is Harris.
Sutcliffs approach was basically the car doesn't have the sound, or throttle response of a V8 so I'm disappointed. To me I just don't find that a very good review. It didn't tell me anything. Just that he favors a V8. I just don't see a Chris Harris review based around I don't like this car because it doesn't have a big N/A V8.
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      05-16-2014, 01:26 PM   #110
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Love the new M3 / M4 looks stunning 8.7 to 100mph is NUTSSSSSSSSSSS

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